Talk:Sin
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Folks, that was just a first stab at it. Feel free to jump in and do it right!! :-)
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Etymology of the word, Sin
Quick question on the etymology on the origin of sin in English any definitive sources?--dgd
- I have added a paragraph on the etymology of the English word. ---User:Ihcoyc (Feb. 26, 2003)
Sin, sins and scope of atonement
I'm not sure if this is the correct place to voice a thought on the matter, but I do think that under the heading of sin there should be a full listing of the 10 commandments as well as a reference to Jesus' teachings on the most important of Gods laws (love of God and love of neighbor) Also, why not mention lifting of kosher food laws as described in the Christian bible. --24.18.238.66 23:32, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
soley individualistic accounts of sin. perhaps need to be balanced with the idea of corporate exile (and perhaps not). mhjb
- I appreciate the Protestant/Catholic usage note, but in my experience
Protestants (ministers, laity, and writers) used it primarily in terms of personal sin. As in, "Do not commit sin!" or "It would be a sin to do that." or "Lord, forgive me, for I have sinned." Protestants like repentance, too, not just Catholics. :-) Ed Poor
Actually, both viewpoints are accurate. Many Protestant churches speak of "Original sin," and of "sins," acts contrary to God's law and one of the results of "Original sin." F. Lee Horn
Sin and Atonement jointly considered
A suggestion was made at Talk:Atonement that the material on that page ought to be merged with this one, which already contained a discussion of Jewish concepts of atonement. I have tried, and this is a first go at it. ---User:Ihcoyc
these two subjects may go hand in hand with each other (maybe even more so for Judaism), these subjects also go hand in hand with many other religious subjects. And other Wikipedia article-subjects also go hand in hand with other article-subjects, but Wikipedia generally doesn't merge articles merely because they go hand in hand. There needs to be a compelling reason demonstrated first why subjects each with their own unique concepts should be merged before they actually are merged. That has not been done. I could agree that maybe a separate article called Sin and Atonement is needed IN ADDITION to articles for each subject, but as it is, even this article Sin is not properly titled for its subject matter! B 18:13, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Roman Catholic views compared with others
"There also tends to be a distinction between Roman Catholic and many Protestant views of the effects of sin. Many Protestants typically teach that sin, including original sin, entirely extinguished any human capacity to move in the direction of reconciliation towards God. Salvation is sola fide, by faith alone, and sola gratia, by grace alone, and by God's initiative alone. Roman Catholics, by contrast, typically teach that while sin has tarnished the original goodness of humanity prior to the Fall, it has not entirely extinguished that goodness. Under this view, humans can take the initiative in reaching out towards God and seeking redemption. "
I can't speak for what Catholicism teaches (though whatever it is it's probably a doctrine, not merely a typical teaching), but that's not my experience of Protestant churches. There are many views on whether we reach for God or he reaches for us, but I hadn't heard one put in terms of original sin. I don't think I'm up to rewriting it myself, though, but I'd say the best thing would be to combine it with the atonement bit and put in different teachings.
For now, I'm just changing it a little. Bagpuss 23:27 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
- I put in "typically teach" because some writers who were not "Protestants," like St Augustine of Hippo, taught something closer to the Protestant position by my understanding. In other words, there were differences of opinion on the topic that took place well before the Reformation. If Roman Catholicism has adopted some different formulation as doctrine, I don't know what it is exactly. -- IHCOYC 00:10 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
- I think what's being described above is known as total depravity, which is more specifically a Calvinist doctrine which does have roots in Augustine. Arminians, like those in the Methodist tradition, would stop well short of the total depravity position. Eastern Christianity also rejects the doctrine; they just weren't able to correct Augustine in a timely fashion, as communication between East and West was already being hampered by linguistic and cultural differences. Wesley 14:53 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
- Is there a technical term for the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox position other than "Arminianism"? We definitely need to do some kind of article on the theologies of grace. I added links to "total depravity" and "Arminianism," also to "Pascal's wager" which strikes me as assuming some variety of Arminianism. -- IHCOYC 16:29 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
- The technical term for what Roman Catholicism is not, is Pelagianism. Since the time of Augustine (whose formulations against Pelagius caused a rift between the East and West), Western popes (especially those who had been monks) and Western councils have gradually modified the interpretation of Augustinianism (in part with the intention to lessen the conflict with the East). Mkmcconn
- I have modified the following
- Under this view, humans can take the initiative in reaching out towards God and seeking redemption.
- and written
- Under this view, humans can reach towards God to share in the Redemption which Christ won for them
- although I think the issue could be better stated, it is more accurate than the previous statement (the initiative is, actually, God's, as one can see in the Cathecism of the Catholic Church). Pfortuny, 16:28 Oct 9, 2003 (UTC).
- Central to Eastern understanding of sanctification, is a theological commitment to absolute freedom - this terminology does not translate well, in Western terms. Neither would it translate well, unless I'm completely mistaken, if the Western meaning of those terms were translated into an Eastern equivalent. So, I think that the Western version (called semi-Augustinianism) is not very different from the Eastern version (which owes a lot to the monastic tradition beginning with John Cassian). It is not proper to equate this with Arminianism, because the theory of atonement in the East is primarily focussed on the incarnation (the so-called theory of reciprocity), and Arminianism is a psychological theory of atonement (the governmental theory or moral influence theory) and is therefore closer to what the Western councils condemned in denouncing Semi-pelagianism. I have not been able to discern a Western equivalent in the Eastern theories of what Christ accomplished on the cross,
although its universal intent makes it easily distinguishable from Calvinism (which besides incarnational and moral significance, adds a particular intention to Christ's death, which other Christians reject: he lived and died in view of the whole world, to redeem those chosen by God). Mkmcconn 21:47, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)
- I'm not aware of a specific name for the Eastern Orthodox position; I'm sure that neither it nor Roman Catholicism could really be termed "Arminian", even if they do share some similarities. Roman Catholicism probably has a term, but I don't know what it is. Orthodoxy does talk a lot about free will, and about gaining increasing amounts of free will as one is healed of the effects of sin, and of course about God's desire for everyone to be "saved", but I don't think I'm qualified to talk about this well. Freedom of Morality by Florovsky would probably be a good source. Haven't actually read it yet; I'm still doing a lot of learning myself. Wesley 16:06 Mar 6, 2003 (UTC)
God repents
The twelfth attribute of mercy reads: God repents sins that are committed in error. Shouldn't the word repents be changed to forgives? Wesley
- Not sure who wrote those, but it seems so to me also. -- IHCOYC 20:24 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)
It says some religions define sin, not as an act that offends God, but as an act that damages the soul. Which religions are those? 128.101.130.129 23:35, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Many within Judaism hold this view. This is an especially important concept within Kabbalah, esoteric Jewish mysticism. {Not all Jews accept Kabbalah as authoritative (in fact, most don't).} Many Jewish religious rationalists (those who reject mysticism) also hold that sin is something which damages the soul, e.g. Maimonides. RK 14:10, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- Many Christians I've talked to hold a similar view, defining sin as a self-destructive act. My (Protestant) Greek professor in college preferred to translate the last part of John 3:16 something like "... so that whoever believes in Him would not destroy himself but rather have eternal life." He said the verb in question was in the middle voice, which generally means the subject is intimately involved in the action, hence the above translation instead of the more common would not perish. The notion of sin as an offense against God makes the most sense if you happen to live in a feudal society, or another one that has a large concept of offense against an important person's honor. Wesley 15:43, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- I think that what the question seeks to get at is a difference between, say, a religion that propounds a body of rules that define sin -- in which case sin is any action that breaks the rules; and those religions that define sin by its effect on the spiritual well being of the sinner. The difficulty is that these two views are not mutually exclusive. Some varieties of Christian theology say that even "virtuous" acts done by the unsaved are sins; they're presumably done to be admired, or for some other selfish motive. No one can be good unless God is with them. On the other hand, you have faiths like Buddhism, where sins are acts that incur a debt of karma, but there is no judge of karma to determine the presence or degree of guilt. -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:22, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)
- That makes sense. I suspect (thought I don't know) that Buddhism probably contains groups that have detailed lists of do's and don't's for their followers to follow in order to avoid incurring more karma debt, and groups that don't, just as within Christianity there are some that affirm total depravity (which I think is what you described) and some that don't. So the difference isn't really between different religions, but between different schools of theological thought within different religions.
I have changed the last edit (and commented (i.e. with <!-- -->) it in the article. It said something about the Assumption, Pope John Paul, etc... which was quite incorrect (see the comments there). Anyway, I doubt if that paragraph fits well in this article.
Near the top: "Atonement describes the process through which we become reconciled to God for sins." Who is "we" here? Is it all christians, or is it some particular subgroups? I find it confusing when articles say this is what christians believe, with no discussion of whether they mean some sect of protestants, or the Catholics, or the Orthodox, or one of the old churches, or who... 209.8.184.25 04:37, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Distinct topics
Shouldn't sin be considered separately from atonement? I see from previous discussion that they used to be separate articles, and they were later merged. What is the thinking behind this? Mkmcconn — 17:51, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I think they should be separated (obviously). I do not know when/how they were merged. Pfortuny 07:42, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Protestant vs Catholic?
This contrast is only vaguely familiar to me, as a Protestant; and so, I'm assuming that it is not really representative of a contrast, as it claims. For that reason, I removed it. Roman Catholics also have an idea of sin being a state or condition from which redemption is necessary, just as Protestants do. Protestants also certainly understand by "sins" those acts which do not conform to the word of God. It does not appear to me to be true that the contrast can be maintained, or that there is such a reservation of the word among catholics; since in the West, Christians are largely agreed that every individual is born into a condition of corruption, a state of "sin", from which it is not possible to deliver oneself apart from the grace of God. The difference between Protestantism and Catholicism is more subtle than the following paragraph would appear to imply. Mkmcconn — 19:56, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- There is a difference among Christians concerning the use of the word "sin". Protestants use it primarily for what they see as humanity's inherently sinful nature, and only secondarily to actual instances of sin. Roman Catholics by contrast reserve the word only for actual instances of sin, calling the sinful nature of humans "concupiscence".
- In my oppinion (I am a Catholic) the paragraph is at the least unclear. I think all Christian denominations use the word sin generically (for lack of a better term), as in, by sin entered death into the world -which means both a sin and sinfulness-. Also, concupiscence is not the sinful nature of human: pure malice is not an issue of concupiscence, as I understand it.
- So I am happy with your removal. Pfortuny 07:40, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Islamic views of sin
- In the Islamist movement, Muslim sinners are held to be liable for the death sentence. According to Islamic law, conversion by Muslims to other religions is a sin. Penalties may include ostracism or even execution if they live or have lived in an "Islamic State" and are deemed enemies of the state.
Focusing on this stuff strikes me as rather POV. There has to be some kind of developed theology behind Islamic law. I assume that atonement from sin is possible in Islam, but I am short on the particulars. Smerdis of Tlön 00:47, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- There is IMO a very highly developed theology. But there are a couple of barriers to including it in Wikipedia.
- One is that while we Westerners have a faith in knowledge and a joy in spreading it, that may not be part of Islamic cultures (note the plural) at all, and it typically isn't as high a priority. Criticising the Qur'an is a criminal offence in many Islamic countries. The penalty varies; A personal friend was deported from one country because he was (falsely) accused of it. But even if it's completely unenforced, just having such an offence on the books isn't exactly free speech. AFAIK all Islamic cultures regard any pictorial representation of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as offensive. Please note, I'm not saying any of this is wrong. I am just saying it's relevant. It makes it difficult to obtain the information, and restricts our right to publish it even if we do obtain it.
- Another is Islamic scholars may not regard what we would call their theology as knowledge in the way we might. It's rather a sort of wisdom. That's not to say that it's seen as less valid than knowledge, just the opposite. On a scale, opinion is seen as being at one end, Islamic truth at the other, and scientific reasoning is in the middle. This again makes it difficult to obtain and publish the information, as describing it as either knowledge or opinion is in a sense inaccurate, and possibly offensive.
- The other point I'd like to make is that the concept of atonement as understood in Western culture doesn't necessarily appear in Islamic 'theology' at all. This may be surprising, as both Jesus Christ and Abraham are regarded as prophets in Islam, but it's been my impression talking to some thoughtful Moslems over the years. I think the problem might be that much Western theology, including the doctrine of atonement, comes from a Greek cultural perspective, not from a Jewish one as is traditionally assumed and often claimed. As such it is alien to Islamic thought (and also to Jewish thought).
- These are difficult issues, see Islam for a very different perspective on the cross-cultural issues regarding knowledge, but again note that the clash between Greek and Islamic thought is affirmed. Andrewa 06:09, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Copyright/authorship question
The Hindu interpretation section says that it is adapted from a book, and that italics indicate non-quotes. I would hope that actually considerably larger sections of this passage are "non-quotes", otherwise the section is probably not "kosher" from a copyright point of view. Arided the Avenger Wed Mar 23 02:14:15 2005 UTC
Jewish views of sin
As the text already indicates, the means of atonement in Judaism changed over time - there was a move away from sacrifices. As is not made equally clear, beliefs in the form retribution takes have also changed: in particular, the belief in Hell/Heaven as we currently understand them is in all probability post-biblical, or late-biblical at most. It is also certain that, say, Maimonides believed certain sins to condemn the sinner to hell, or at least to make him "lose his part in the world to come", even if they were not committed to defy God, or in full conscience of their being sins: for example, believing in the corporeality of God makes the believer not go to Heaven. There is also the distinction to be drawn between the sins of Gentiles and the sins of Jews; the former have to obey only the seven Noahide laws and their consequences - yet, at the same time, punishment (at least temporal punishment) of Gentiles can be harsher than that of Jews for the same offense (at least in some worked-out subsystems within classical Rabbinic Judaism).
Reform views also should be explained, insofar as there are sections on retribution and atonement in this article: the Pittsburgh platform explicitly rejects the notions of Hell and Heaven. Hasdrubal 22:31, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)