Talk:Samhain

Contents

1 . 2 Samhain vs. Samhain night 3 ToC 4 dating

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also the name of glenn danzig's first band after he left the misfits. i see no particular reason to put pop culture trivia in the wikipedia, so i think it can stay on this page. :-)

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Mediterranean peoples had elaborated cults of the dead (remember the Egyptians?), and Christianity had cults of the martyrs and the saints entirely separately from the Celtic parts of the empire. Only the date is implicated in Samhain/All Saints, and I'm not even so sure about that. Almost all Christian liturgical dates go back to the Eastern Mediterranean, an area not involved in much Celtic contact (despite the Galatians). This is, in general, an exaggerated thing; there are, after all, only so many days in the year; cf., Christmas = sun festival; Easter = fertility. Bonfire, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is indeed Bone-fire. Admittedly, the clearest pagan example is meaning 4, but I think that's enough to revise upward in certainty! --MichaelTinkler

Your points about Mediterranean cults of the dead are well made, Michael, and something which made me have a good hard think about it; moreover 31st October is only an approximate date for Samhain eve, and was almost certainly not uniform throughout the disparate Celtic lands. As Christianity consolidated its administrative stranglehold, it is probable that the multiple dates on which Samhain (and possibly other similar festivities) were consolidated centrally in order to give the Christian religion the facade of coherence. Celtic mythic culture was not, as you are probably well aware, limited to the extremities of Europe; it was once widespread throughout France, Italy, Spain, and has many points of commonality, including some dates of festivities, with Norse and Germanic mythologies: it seems likely that all the autumnal pagan festivities were rolled up within the umbrella of what are now Hallowe'en and All Saints Day. sjc

stranglehold? facade of coherence? Well, a tad non-npov there. In fact, the 'facade of coherence' is in large part a facade projected back by 18th and 19th century historians on a Church that was cheerful enough about ambiguity, especially in the calendar. There never was a push for standardization across Christendom of the calendar until after the council of Trent. What standardization existed in western Europe was actually the result of an odd accident - the Franciscans chose the calendar of Rome for their internal usage as a matter of convenience (they took a vote on it). The fact that they were both an international order (unlike the Benedictines, who were federated instead of centralized) and mobile (liable to be stationed anywhere in Europe where they had relevant language skills, or even just expected to learn a few new languages) meant that they spread the pattern of the calendar of saints as observed in the city of Rome. One of the greatest irritants when I teach later medieval art is sorting out the "usages" in all the prayer books - each diocese had its own serious quirks, and only the major feasts (and I mean only the feasts of Christ) were standardized. Even the feasts of the events in the life of the Virgin other than Annunciation (which, after all, is supposed to be nine months before the fixed holiday of Christmas) were mildly irregular. Your last sentence (all the autumnal festivals) is the most likely explanation, all in all. --MichaelTinkler

I am firmly of the opinion that that NPOV can be safely done away with on /Talk pages! I'll try and get the article to reflect the idea of the roll-up, though... (I hadn't realised that the Christians were quite as revisionist as you are suggesting, though, and that has given me a little food for thought...) sjc

we need an entry on something like 'cult of the dead' or 'the dead' or some such, with sections on 'the early christian cult of the saints', 'honoring the dead in Islam', 'the dead in the Celtic world view'. What do you think the title should be? I tend to use 'cult' because I deal with the saints all the time, but it's not the normal english usage. 'The dead' sounds a little barren. And I'm not *really* talking about 'the afterlife', per se. I like this article's phrase 'the world of the dead', but it's a little spooky. Yikes!

And yep, the history of the Catholic Church is an ocean! --MichaelTinkler

How about something terribly dull like 'Cultural beliefs concerning death and the hereafter'? sjc

hmmm. yes, that is dull. I have a yearning for something snappier, but if nothing else springs to mind, I'll use something close to it. --MichaelTinkler

Maybe we need to get a couple of journalists in to write the page titles... sjc

Harvest/Seasonal (of?) death festivals?? JHK

I can see Rupert Murdoch offering you a job, jhk... :-) sjc

Many of these festivals are oriented more towards ancestor worship/veneration, particularly the Asian festivals. Maybe we need a page on that concept? I'll think about it. --Dmerrill

that's what I'm looking for, Dmerrill - a decent title. Veneration of the Dead? Then we can lead off to cross-cultural entries or such. --MichaelTinkler

I like Veneration of the dead...jhk

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Could you add pronunciation of 'Samhein' and other Celtic names ? Taw

I'm gradually doing it as I go along. But you should be aware that there is no standard Celtic pronunciation for most of these names and events, (and usually no standard spelling)... A Scot will pronounce a word differently from a Manxman and a Manxman differently from a Breton. We are talking about big geographical and historical and linguistic differences here. sjc

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Is there any ancient documentation about this holiday? I'm interested in comparing the ancient celebration and calendar to the modern understanding and dating of the celebration. So far I've come up dry on samhain. If there are some good scholarly resources on samhain [not pop stuff], could those who know them post them as a bibliography? thanks, ibnabraham

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The Lemuria was the Roman observation of the influence of the dead. But it was in May. So though Romans recognized Samhain as a version of something familiar, they weren't able to conflate the two, as was suggested here in the entry. Christians had no such issues: first they covered the Lemuria with a day honoring all the martyrs, and when that was all safely quiescent, they shifted the day to coincide with Samhain. Read All Saints Day for details, I've made some changes I hope you'll all look at with favor. "Bonfire/bonefire" (folk etymology anyway) is an English language coincidence. No relation to the Gaelic sacrifice of cattle at Samhain, which persisted into Christian times. Wetman 04:00, 22 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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In terms of ancient practice, the Gaulish variant of the name Samhain, Samnos, is applied to the entire eleventh month/November. One of the most lengthy references to Samhain is in the Irish medieval tale Serglige con Culainn. First I'll give the Irish, then my translation (I'm using 7 to stand for the manuscript abbreviation for "ocus": Óenach dogníthe3 la Ultu cecha blíadna .i. tri lá ría samƒuin 7 tri laa íarma 7 lathe na samn feisne. Iss ed eret no bítis Ulaid insin i mMaig Murthemni, oc ferthain óenaig na samna cecha blíadna. Ocus ní rabe isin bith ní dognethe4 in n-eret sin léu acht cluchi 7 chéti 7 ánius 7 aíbinnius 7 longad 7 tomailt, conid de sin atát na trenae5 samna sechnón na hÉrend.

Each year the Ulstermen held a fair; the three days before Samain and three days after it and the day of Samain itself. That is the time that the Ulstermen used to be in Mag Muirthemni holding the fair of [Samhain; nothing was] done by them during that time but games and gatherings and pleasure and eating and feasting, so that it is from that [is come] the thirds of Samain throughout Ireland.

A number of tales, the Serglige, the Compert con Culainn, Echtra Nera that involve "trafficking" with the otherworld revolve around Samhain. According to the late medieval tale collection the "Boyhood Deeds of Finn" "“the síde of Ireland were always opened on Samain." DigitalMedievalist 16:12, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC) Lisa

This should be in the entry itself, I'd say. Wetman 00:36, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

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The Irish medieval tale Serglige con Culainn is available at I removed: In the three days preceding the Samhain month the Sun God, Lugh, maimed at Lughnassadh, dies by the hand of his Tanist (his other self), the Lord of Misrule. Lugh traverses the boundaries of the worlds on the first day of Samhain. His Tanist is a miser and though he shines brightly in the winter skies he gives no warmth. and does not temper the breath of the Crone, Cailleach Bheare, the north wind. In this may be discerned the ageless battle between the light and dark and the cyclic nature of life and the seasons.

Because this is Neo-Pagan mythology (well known from Wicca) and not any native Celtic idea or mythology. It has simply had Gaelic deities (Lúgh and Calleach Bheara) inserted in place of the neo-pagan "Lord" or "God" and "Lady" or "Goddess". "Tanist" is a term from Gaelic culture meaning successor, there is no such being as "the Lord of Misrule" (if there is give his Gaelic name, someone, since the context is clearly Gaelic due to the version of Lúgh).

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There is an online transcription of the Irish manuscripts of Serglige Con Culainn (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/G301015/text001.html) “the wasting-sickness of Cú Chulainn.” at the CELT, the Corpus of Electronic Texts (http://celt.ucc.ie/index.html). And English translation of the tale is available at The Only Jealousy of Emer (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Bistro/2330/jemer.html) The lines referenced by DigitalMedievalist in her post on 16:12, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC) are the first six lines of the manuscript.

The Boyhood Deeds of Fionn mac Cumhaill (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/f02.html) from The Celtic Literature Collective (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/irish.html).

Other relevant literature translated into English may be found at The Celtic Literature Collective (http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/irish.html).

Ibnabraham 00:54, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Samhain vs. Samhain night

maybe we should disambiguate Samhain (the month) and Samhain Night (the festival)? dab (ᛏ) 11:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ToC

I removed some of the most blatant romantic pathos about tribes and dying honorably, and similar Keltick projections, and I am suggesting we do separate sections, one on pre-Christian Celts (some of the material I put in the etymology section may be moved there), and one on the traditions of medieval and modern folklore. The mythological bits (shield of Scatha etc.) should be put in context and given references. dab (ᛏ) 12:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

dating

From the entry: Samhain Eve, in Irish, Oidhche Shamhna, is one of the principal festivals of the Celtic calendar, and is thought to fall on or around the 31st of October. Can someone pin down just how the date of Samhain was established? (It is currently always 31 October, i surmise.) Wetman 00:36, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

I know now, putting together Coligny calendar. It must have been the three nights of the full moon closest to (or, after?) autumnal equinox of Oct/Nov ("TRINVX SAMO SINDIV"). dab (ᛏ) 12:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)