Talk:Reflexology
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Fellow classmates and editors, could you all please think about the style of paragraphs before editing the page? I am surprised that there is a sentence written in the following way: "Could we use reflexology......?" This is not the standard style of encyclopedic publishing. Please avoid such patterns again in the future, also avoid using YOUs, thanks :) 80jimmylouie 04:25, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This stub is incredibly puerile. It reads like a DIY manual, has no encyclopedic value, uses the second person, keeps referring to Hong Kong for obscure reasons or POVs, and the thinking behind it could be tremendously improved. Also the English used is less than basic and sometimes inintelligible. I suggest a complete re-writing by a competent editor.
- Sorry that we had made so many studid mistakes and had kept on referring to HK. It is because editing this Wiki page is our assignment. I am a student in Hong Kong and the Wikians with username starts with 2 digits are my fellow schoolmates. As this is the first time we try to get involved into a wiki-page editing, we had done some nasty thing that is unacceptable under the Wiki rule. I am sorry about this and now then I really enjoy in editing this Wiki page. Hope that you honourable editors will bear our mistakes and help us to improve :) Jimmy
- Hi jimmy, you don't need to apologise. The above comments were written by user:irismeister a user who has been rude to many others over the past few weeks. They only reason he wrote those comments is because I made an edit to the page. They have nothing to do with you or any or your schoolmates. Please do not think your efforts are unvalued, they are not. Every page I have ever worked on here has started off not very good. Pages improve over time as people edit them. That is the wonderful thing about wikipedia. If irismeister insults your efforts again just ignore him (advice I really should have taken myself long ago), You do not need to apologise to anyone for working on an article.
- Incidentally I've been searching the web for info to add to the page (Some links are at the bottom of this page for you to check out) So far I've not been able to find a tranlation of the hieroglyphics on the picture, but I'm still looking. We should mention however that not all scholers believe that the picture demonstrate reflexology. Some believe that it demonstates a manicure and pedicure. Others think it shows some kind of surgery! again I've not been able to find good sources (I found out that a variety of different views are held, but not who actually holds the views. So there is plenty of work left to be getting on with. :-) Again a warm welcome to you and your classmates. theresa knott 09:21, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I just found a possible translation of the hieroglyphics. Please visit the Wikipage or [1] (http://www.reflexology-usa.net/history.htm) to see whether it is acceptable or not. Anyway I have added into the wikipage. See whether other will remove it :P
Jimmy It's OKish although a translation from a university site would be a lot better. I sometimes specify site = .edu into google advanced search options or alternatively site /= .com to try and get references from university sites only. I've edited the section a little to make it more NPOV (neutral point of view) as the tranlation indicates that something possibly painful is taking place, but doesn't -prove- it's reflexology. theresa knott 11:50, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Oops, sorry :P But I just found another web (http://www.foot-reflexologist.com/EGYPT_1.HTM), which is very worthy to read Jimmy
- The translation, I found from Here (http://www.aor.org.uk/images/egypt.jpg), is originated from the International Institute of Reflexology. 80jimmylouie 13:59, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
No need to be sorry about it. I'll take a look at the web site you mentioned.theresa knott 12:01, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- That site adds valuable independent information. Congratulations for your critical spirit - a rare and much more laudable scientific and NPOV quality, which we all welcome here on Wiki. With your help, indiscriminate, uncritical cut-and-paste from web sites only because they are in Google, even if they bring no independent additions, becomes rapidly a thing of the past :-) Happy editing - irismeister 12:20, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)
You are welcome, Jimmy :-) Please apologize me if some other editors on this page made it look like a personal critic. It surely wasn't, and I am glad you came back. You did a great job! Wikiquette (the informal rules of good will for all of us here) is about ALWAYS assuming good will, while NEVER entering personal attacks. Keep up the good work! Wiki is great as long as we write articles together, as you do so nicely. We also greatly welcome pupils, especially since you are so nice, and show some of us teachers here how NOT to behave as children :-) Happy editing, with all your class :-) Sincerely - irismeister 09:48, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)
- Nice to meet you both Jimmy
- Nice to meet you too, Jimmy. Keep up the perfect job. Sincerely, - irismeister 12:20, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)
Jimmy - It's just occured to me that this page could really do with a map of the zones on the foot etc. Is anyone at your school/college/university good at drawing ? theresa knott 11:12, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I could use computer to edit it if I got a base map to edit, or simply to say, I can draw a better version based on an existing one :P BTW, we are university students :) I have several maps in a book, but they are copyrighted :(Jimmy
- Here is a foot that I drew (Don't laugh, it'll look better when you put the zones in {I drew round a photo of a real foot by the way})
Can you add the zones in ? I suggest you add areas of colour, then we can add a colour coded key to the text. theresa knott 15:25, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- OK~ I can get it done on Saturday 80jimmylouie 15:36, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry theresa, my scanner is out of order, I have drawn the chart and I will get it ploaded once I fixed my scanner 80jimmylouie 16:52, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- That's a shame. If you don't manage to get your scanner fixed you may want to consider drawing the chart with a graphics program rather than by hand. See wikipedia:graphics tutorials for details.
- Sorry theresa, my scanner is out of order, I have drawn the chart and I will get it ploaded once I fixed my scanner 80jimmylouie 16:52, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- It's just a minor driver problem, should be done within days. It's hard to draw such a complex foot chart with graphic program, at least in a precise way. Therefore I prefer to draw by hands.80jimmylouie 17:14, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Theresa, I have got the chart uploaded. I use the Image:xxx page to include the index. See if you rather want to include the index in the image itself. 80jimmylouie 16:53, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
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Edit war
"Belief" and "theory" are pretty much the same, in this context. I'm going to unprotect both the article and the talk page now. Then I'm going to start counting reversions. First one to go over 3 reverts per day gets a temporary ban. Agreed? --Uncle Ed 15:49, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Agreed :O) I mean in theory, although my belief is that you'll soon ban me :) Competence has a poor press these days... Sincerely, but respectfully dedicated to quality no matter what - and passionately the same,irismeister 15:54, 2004 Feb 20 (UTC)
http://www.pacificreflexology.com/theory.htm gives several theories on how reflexology works. It labels them all as conjecture.
Seems like reflexology and acupuncture are in the same boat, as far as gaining acceptance from the English speaking world's Official Medical Bodies. --Uncle Ed 16:05, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Is the pacific institite of reflexology an official medical body ? theresa knott 16:08, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think so; I think it's a reflexology advocacy group. Hmm, if even its advocates admit they don't know how it works, what does this mean? <grin> --Uncle Ed 16:15, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(1) Who deleted my earlier comment here? I stated that I disagree with Ed, and why I had reverted to Theresa Knott's version: theory is not the same as belief. (2) I gave the article a once-over copyedit, fixing grammar, reducing emphasis on Hong Kong, and removing anything that might have been read as medical advice. Vicki Rosenzweig 17:12, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Oups, Vicky - could have been me by mistake - sorry about that
I was in the heat of inspiration and in this vein I thank Uncle Ed who inspired me but I apologize to you if I acidentally wiped your interesting comment here. However, here is what I wrote in the mean time. Please answer me about how you feel it after you have read it carefully. I am very interested in your opinion. Here follows the answer to Uncle Ed:
Uncle Ed, thank you for caring about these poor tired soles, and here are my 2 cents: As we have all read there,
To date we do not know how foot reflexology works. All of these theories are based upon conjecture. (stress added).
We base our judgement, sentences, uttered stuff and other instantiations or expressions of our deep knowlege, (institite (sic, sp?) notwithstanding), on theories.
Theory, kindly note, is a system of understanding based on much more structure than mere belief. What would be an action based solely on belief ? Look, I strongly and passionately believe that we should exorcize bad thoughts. Do I make a batallion of witch hunters out of my belief ? Do I buy explosives ? (all of these have been tried, sadly, in history) Do I organize a medical office to massage the bad thoughts out of those tired soles, if I believe it's soles which harbor bad thoughts ? Or do I sit, judge, talk and respectfully argue before I cut what my opponent just said, and protect the page to prevent him from defending his own ideas ? In short, do we really need to go back to the Stone Age ? A theory has hypotheses in which that theory is deeply based, and these hypotheses are of course anything but random.
Moreover, a theory has structure, something much more interesting to behold and deconstruct, than the structure of belief, if any (and how would that be described, if it really existed ?). Furthermore, a scientific theory has experiments which are designed according to hypotheses and also according to an explicit purpose. These experiments yield data which are generally held to be objective. Moreover, data are to be separated from interpretations and comments, and reviews.
Finally, out of conclusions we can go to new hypotheses, through nasty logical stuff called logical thinking aka conjectures. That's how it is, period. All in all, that's the main strength in the inner workings of the structure of scientific theories. Quite a loooong way afar and away from beliefs, don't you think so?
How shall I put it in conclusion, in order to remain both spartiate and correct? While I might write all these above out of my sheer belief, it is really a theory that I develop in writing. Conversely, every single medical system, from alternative to conventional has to be structured like a theory or else be thrown over the board:
Please use a cup of Chinese gren tea (I'll tell you tomorrow why green and how much) and look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Conventional_medicine) at what I wrote yesterday about Conventional Medicine for more extended ideas on the subtleties of medical business based only on belief.
And a final note: While beliefs are stronger in individuals, it is always theory which lasts longer :-) Even when it looks as if massaging soles were only an action corresponding to a belief or yet another volatile belief, the sage sees a theory underlying it.
Any theory about health and disease, plus diagnosis, plus therapy out pops a new medical system. Consider acupuncture: you have the theory of energy flowing you know where, the Chinese pulse diagnosis (80 volumes - it's no joke) and needles and moxa therapy. We may or may not believe that Ms Yin and Mr Yang walk together along IG and meet at IG-10, but I quit smoking after only a few needles in the right place, and it was no theory.
I do not ask you to believe me, but the theory works. Belief is not placebo, but that's another story - a long one, to be cut short tomorrow, if you care :-)
I must heartily thank all the brave people who volunteered to write here, the very moment I cried for help, and I dedicate the above to their honest, serious work while I beg pardon for not authoring myself for the time being. Sincerely yours - irismeister 17:22, 2004 Feb 20 (UTC)
Picture
The picture is nice, a few more details about would be useful. Is it a photograph or a drawing ? Where is it from ? What do the hyrogliphics say ? How do you know they are practisin reflexology rather than something else (a beuty treatment for example)That sort of thing. theresa knott 14:14, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Interesting web sites [2] (http://www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Post/107346)[3] (http://www.reflexology.org.au/national/history.htm)this one is a large pdf file containing tonnes of stuff (http://www.ocr.edu/forms/101chp01.pdf)
What is this neuronal overlap stuff ? I am against blatant POVs in the body of text, especially when not substantiated, not marked as such, and spuriously labelled as skeptical. What is the anatomical and physiological basis of such an allegation, if any ? Why putting this here ? The energetic theory has NEVER beeen addressed by mainstram or conventional medicine - so why feeding readers with this genital pleasure diversion ? Does it explain reflexology ? Certainly not. Who can believe, seriously, that reflexology works by this obsessive genital nonsense. It does not help. It neither clarifies nor denies the reflexology article - which otherwise is SUPERBLY written and documented now. Let us not mess it up! Strongly against the terrible quote! - irismeister 20:04, 2004 Feb 23 (UTC)
- I don't talk to people who threaten lawsuits theresa knott 22:13, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Repeatedly reinserting the obsessive passage about genital areas and pleasure are NOT a service for the cause of NPOV !!!!! Wiki is not into an obscure author's speculation as retrived from cloudy web pages and summarily included without foresight, let alone judgement. The "genital" area allegation is absolutely non-substantiated. Indeed it is an insult to the subtlety and effectivity of reflex therapy - surely not for pleasure but for health.
Moreover, dismissing the theories of reflex therapy uder blah-blah and blatant fantasizing about pleasure only dismisses reflexology as such and en bloc in the process, as if it were only some titillation or something - hardly the definition of serious encyclopaedic attitudes ! Not recommended ! Happy editing - irismeister 22:18, 2004 Feb 26 (UTC)
Iris meister keeps removing this quote because he thinks it is obscene:
Robert Todd Carroll from "the skeptics dictionary" speculates: "One reason foot massage may be so pleasurable and is associated with significant improvement in mood is that the area of the brain that connects to the foot is adjacent to the area that connects to the genitals. There may be some neuronal overlapping."
His definition of obscene is clearly very different to mine. He also feels that NPOV means that we can't put in opinions and speculations. I OTOH think that NPOV means that is fine to put in opinions and speculations as long as they are clearly labelled as such.
The reason I put the quote in was to back up the claim that everyone agrees that it relaxing and pleasurable. What do other people think ? Is the above quote obscene ? Is it non NPOV ?(because if quoting people's views violates NPOV we are going to have to remove al ot of material from Wikipedia).theresa knott 09:21, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Theresa and Irismeister, please stop the edit war first, I shall tell you my opinion on this issue. To me, the expression is NO WAY an obscene one. The reason he removes it, according to him, is because he think it is not NPOV. I don't think so because Theresa has already make it NPOV by paraphrasing and changed some POV words.
- To my understanding, encyclopedia is a colleciton of information for people to read from. What Theresa put down is a POSSIBLE explanation of the pleasurable and relaxing effect of reflexology. As long as Theresa had put it in a NPOV way, I believe readers are sensible enough to distinguish it by themsevles. Did Theresa put it in a POV way? I am sure it is not.
- About obscence, why do you think it is obscene, Iris meister? There is only a word genitals in the whole paragraph. If it is obscene only because this word happens here, how about paragraphs containing 'penis', 'breast', etc.? I don't see any point that it is obscene, could you please clarify your standpoint if ou still insisted it? 80jimmylouie 09:37, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I do agree with Theresa and Jimmy. I can see no POV information here, and no obscene material here. Iris, I would better suggest you to delete all sex-related pages here in Wikipedia and see what will other respond. I am terrbily disappointed with you, Iris. 84denniswong
NPOVing
This section :How can reflexology help? The body has the ability to heal itself. Following illness, stress, injury or disease, it is in a state of imbalance, and vital energy pathways are blocked, preventing the body from functioning effectively. Reflexology can be used to restore and maintain the body's natural equilibrium and encourage healing. A reflexologist uses hands only to apply gentle pressure to the reflex zones on the feet, palm of hands or the ears. For each person the application and the effect of the therapy are unique. Sensitive and trained hands can detect tiny deposits and imbalances in the feet. And by working on these points the reflexologist can release blockages and restore the free flow of energy to the whole body. Tensions are eased, and circulation and elimination is improved. This gentle therapy encourages the body to heal itself at its own pace, often counteracting a lifetime of misuse.
Needs to be NPOVed. Unfortunately i don't have enough knowledge to do a good job if it myself. So instead I'll ask some questions to show yo'all some of my concerns.
- Who says thwe body is in a state of imbalance ?
- What are vital energy pathways and is there any medical evidence that they exist?
- what type of deposites and can they be detected by anyone else? ( I mean could a conventional doctor cut out these deposities if they were so inclined or are the depostites not "real" but instead represent something spiritual)
- circulation of what is improved ? and what does elimination mean?
Hopefully the answers to these questions will go a long way to help me NPOV the paragraph. theresa knott 15:35, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)