Contents

1 Number of régions 2 Corsica 3 page move 4 Région d'outre-mer 5 Basse and Haute

Number of régions

The article France says there are 23 regions, whereas this one says 22: what is the actual number? Why is there this difference? - User:Oliver

this page is apparently only dealing with metropolitan regions. You may either change the title of the article. Or add the 23rd region. It would be more politically correct not to neglect part of the french country...:-)

User:Anthere

Has the 23rd region the exact same status as the other ones? "with conseil regional"? where is the capital/seat of the conseil regional of this region? - User:Olivier

The map is wrong there is 2 regions for PACA : Provence Alpes Côte d'Azur

I remove this map : Missing image
FDepartments.JPG
Image:FDepartments.JPG

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oops, we have 4 over seas regions, that makes a total of 26 regions !!! It's a very big issue, we always forget them... the 4 regions are la Guadeloupe, la Guyane, la Martinique, la Réunion, these are regions made of only one department.

Here's an interesting link [1] (http://www.afg-2000.org/manuel_genealogie/organisation_territoriale/sommaire.html)

linking to these one also

[2] (http://www.afg-2000.org/manuel_genealogie/organisation_territoriale/possessions/sommaire.html)

and, the map is wrong in more than one place... - User:Anthere

Any link to an official government page? - User:Oliver

[3] (http://www.premier-ministre.gouv.fr/fr/p.cfm?ref=6744)

and this one [4] (http://www.outre-mer.gouv.fr/) --ant

Government websites are talking of 26 regions. - User:Olivier

Here is an interesting link (in French): 1999 census, including population of regions, departements and cities of more 100,000 inhabitants. Caution: "Aires urbaines de plus de 50,000 habitants" doesn't give the population of the cities, but the population of the "urban area", the city and its surroundings. http://www.dgcl.interieur.gouv.fr/publications/CL_en_chiffres/CL2001_ch01.pdf - User:Olivier

A good map here would be very helpful. I have an official government of France map showing the regions (22 + 4) and it seems to be the same as the one you removed. Perhaps someone could: 1) explain the map errors and 2) replace it with a good one? Thanks... Christine G.

I put up this map. It is politically correct and for foreigners in that it does not break Normandie into 2 but conversely shows the 3 distinct areas making the 1 region of Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur. (See Peter Mayle's book) There should be a map here, if someone doesn't like mine, put up something else but don't delete it because you don't understand.

Corsica

can someone add more info about that supposed special status for Corse please. Izwalito

page move

move request withdrawn, User:Mzajac showed me that this is an larger issue than I sought before. Too many french terms have no equivalent, so producing consistency in respect to worldwide subdivision naming produces inconsistency in the French subdivision series. Thanks Mzajac for your patience and your friendly arguing. Tobias Conradi 08:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for keeping up a good attitude after all my haranguing on this issue. Cheers, Michael Z. 2005-04-1 09:12 Z

• support - pluralize, use "of" and use english this is the way it is done for more than 120 other subdivision pages (99%). no exception for french. Tobias Conradi 03:35, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose This move may make sense if we were to also anglicize département, arrondissement, canton, communauté, syndicat, commune, collectivité, pays d'outre-mer, and territoire d'outre-mer, but then I think much of the meaning would be lost. —Michael Z. 2005-04-1 00:16 Z
  • it may also make sense if we don't. But that's a good idea, get rid of french words in article titles if there are english equivalents. This is common use everywhere beside some subdivisions of slavic CIS countries. Suggestions:
    • Régions -> Regions (already used in infobox the word "Overseas" so Overseas regions stops frenglish)
    • Départements -> Departments (incl. Overseas departements, like e.g. for all the departments in Latin america)
    • Arrondissements (leave)
    • Cantons (is english use)
    • Communautés urbaines -> Urbain community
    • Communautés d'agglomération -> Agglomeration community (need to be discussed)
    • Communautés de communes -> Community of communes (need to be discussed)
    • Syndicats d'agglomération nouvelle -> ? (need to be discussed)
    • Communes (leave)
    • Municipal arrondissements (first word is already english, second can be considered as english use)
    • Collectivités d'outre-mer ?
    • Collectivité sui generis ?
    • Pays d'outre-mer -> Overseas lands or overseas countries
    • Territoire d'outre-mer -> "Overseas territory" Tobias Conradi 04:59, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's not a good idea at all. The English word commune has a different meaning. Why would you leave arrondissement if you're changing he others? Agglomeration community sounds awkward. Why do you consider canton more English than any of the others? If you try this, you'll end up with a hodgepodge of terms in bastardized English and French, which will leave people guessing which language they're reading, and wondering what they were translated from.

The only one that should be changed, for consistency, is Municipal arrondissements to arrondissements Municipals. —Michael Z. 2005-04-1 07:05 Z

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Discussion

almost 100 pages for other countries are named like Counties of X, Provinces of X, or Regions of X. This is english wikipedia. After moving, a lot of re-redirects and even re-re-redirects have to be solved. see also Wikipedia:WikiProject_Subnational_entities/Naming. No other wikipedia except the french one uses the french word in the page title. Tobias Conradi 21:52, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Should be renamed Region or Région of France, without the "s". See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pluralization). — Instantnood 14:46, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

I moved back to Région in France. The person who had moved to Régions of France did not even change the redirect pages, so that hundreds of article links were screwed up!! In tune with the other articles about French administrative divisions, the article should be named Région in France. There may be other countries with régions (with accent), such as French speaking countries from Africa for instance. Region without an accent is not a precise term, it refers to a geographical area, not to an administrative area. Hardouin 13:04, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

by your rule this would mean to give an accent to the regions of Italy. Tobias Conradi 23:35, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the Italian singular noun is regione. The title would be Regione in Italy, or plural Regioni of Italy. I think region in English is also a synonym for the French région, but using it is ambiguous. I'd prefer to see it with the acute accent, to differentiate it from the generic term. Does anyone have a big Oxford dictionary, to check if it contains région or regione? —Michael Z. 2005-03-28 07:43 Z

this is english WP. I do not care about Oxford dictionary. Yes "region" is ambigous, but what is solved by applying french word for french regions? Will you use it for administrative use only? Why? Then also will you use provincia and región for spanish entities? For me it looks like abusing the english wikipedia as an mulitlingual WP. I may quote my own words No other wikipedia except the french one uses the french word in the page title. Tobias Conradi 06:32, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Without looking in the dictionary, how do you know absolutely that "région" is not an English word for région? Quoting yourself as an authority will only get you so far. —Michael Z. 2005-03-29 07:00 Z

it my be an english word. There are lots of englishes. I quoted myself because only in en:WP people want to do mass import of foreign words. It is ok to have articles about this words, maybe there is one in OED. WP should have the same. But you destroy usability by using them like everyday words for something that has a very easy to use equivalent. With 6 billion people on this planet it is not diffiult that some words are used in english by several thousand, hundred thousand or so people. And the rest will just be interested how many regions exist in France, what the departments are, how many people live there ... Some of these people probably can not type ´ . Others wonder what makes the french regions so different to rehiyons in the Phillipines or regions of Peru or regions of Italy. At the end, all are administrative regions with distinctive characteristics. use "Région française" in the intro and state that région is sometimes used in english if that is the case. But for article title avoid confusion. Tobias Conradi 07:02, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You make some good points, but none of them explain how naming the article région makes it harder to use. It's not hard to read or confusing. You don't have to type "é" to find the article. Regions of France will redirect there.

As you say, administrative subdivisions around the world are all distinctive. But renaming everything in the world to generic names with a high level of "Englishness" is just going to start watering down the distinctive character. People who fear the range of nuance in the English language and orthography can go to http://simple.wikipedia.org/ to feel comfortable. —Michael Z. 2005-03-30 07:39 Z

the nice feature to see in the browser which pages you already visited is broken than. People without "é"-typing have harder time to make correct links. Because administrative regions around the world have different features but not all of them can be spelled differently the distinctivness has to be shown in another way. If french "région" is allowed than probably people will vote for spanish "región" to be english next. Follewed by uppercase "Region" in all cases where you speak about stuff in Germany. If Phillipines are more important people will start with "rehiyon". Flemish people opposed to use french "région" for the Brussels Capital region will vote for the use of "gewest". This all paving the way for Japanese and especially Chinese words into the en:wikipedia, all for the sake of "more correct" wording. The correctness of the article titles will profit at the cost of usability for people not being affiliated with the more-correct-regions. People from the regions and region-experts are happy about correct titles. long live shěng, zhíxiáshì, zìzhìqū, dìjíshì, xiànjíshì, dìqū, zìzhìzhōu. all of them shall have their articles. But none of them should be used for article titles about the regions itself. Tobias Conradi 23:54, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

When I click on a link in Wikipedia that redirects, then go back, my browser correctly colours the link as visited (in both Safari/Mac and Firefox/Mac). Redirects seem to work just fine.

I think that when voting is called for, Wikipedians will vote for what they think is right. Most of the Wikipedia conventions are not hard-and-fast rules, and choosing the right course of action usually depends on editors' discretion or on consensus. That's how it intended to work, even if I don't always agree with the results. Precedents can influence practice on WP to some degree, but the need to second-guess future hypothetical votes is not a convincing argument for me. —Michael Z. 2005-03-31 01:18 Z

WP makes the redirects internally, so this does not work. It is not an HTTP redirect.

to avoid unnecessary future work it is good to think of future developments. Of course I do not know what will happen in the future. I justed wanted to show what can happen if one or five sets of regions (french speaking countries) are treated different. Of course you can say they are not treated different because we look in OED and OED has no spanish or filipino and than we follow OED like a holy leader. Tobias Conradi 02:55, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What does not work? The links are marked as visited in my browser, just like I wrote. I just tried it in Internet Explorer/Windows, and it works in that browser too. —Michael Z. 2005-03-31 04:26 Z

responded on his talk page. --Tobias

Your points are worth considering. And I'm not worshipping the OED (I don't know what the OED says on this topic, or whether it supports the use of régions; I don't have an OED at my disposal). But the people who compile the Oxford dictionaries very carefully research current English usage, before deciding what is an English word—the dictionary is documentary, not prescriptive. If région does happen to appear there, it means that there are solid precedents of it being used as an English word in respected publications. —Michael Z. 2005-03-31 04:43 Z

@Hardouin The person who had moved to Régions of France did not even change the redirect pages, so that hundreds of article links were screwed up!! so did you by your backmove Tobias Conradi 06:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I'm in favor of moving the article to "Regions of France", possibly "Régions of France" as plural seems to be the standard for subnational entity articles (with "of" rather than "in"; "in" may be the better choice for singular). If we can't agree on that, I prefer it to be placed back where it used to be ("List of regions in France" or "Regions of France"?). -- User:Docu

Région d'outre-mer

Why are the régions d'outre-mer numbered 971 to 974? — Instantnood 14:37, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)

The départements d'outre-mer are numbered 971 to 974. Régions have no number. Hardouin 13:05, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Basse and Haute

In the names of French regions and departments, the morphemes "Basse" and "Haute" seem to occur frequently. At first, I thought there was some place called "Haute" that got divided up. But further investigation indicate that these translate to "low" and "high", respectively. Would it be appropriate to translate them to "Lower" and "Upper" when they appear in these names? Either that or the more literal translations would be very helpful to English readers who don't speak much or any French. Thanks, Beland 05:12, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)