Talk:Pro-feminist
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Moved entry to / Talk because I believe it to be incorrect and offensive.
"Pro-feminist"
"A male feminist. Maintream feminism generally prefer this term for feminist men instead of "feminist", rationalizing that men can't be real feminists because they aren't women and that's why the feminist movement has to be sexually exclusive. See feminism"
WTF? Did we completely give up on the idea of neutrality? Maybe people who don't know what they're talking about shouldn't write about it?
No, we absolutely have not given up on the idea of neutrality. Please see neutral point of view.
It really bothers me that some people are using Wikipedia as a platform for bias of any sort. The original entry was out of line: no, it's silly to assert that "pro-feminist" just means "male feminist," and the purpose of the entry itself, as presented, is nothing other than to diss feminists! Moreover, just completely deleting it strikes me as also slightly out of line. Any deletion of significant amounts of text should be explained clearly, and politely.
I have a suggestion: partisans, avoid writing on subjects about which you are partisans, unless you can write in such a way as not to cause other people to get their panties (or knickers, if you prefer) in a bunch! --LMS
I don't know whether it needs its own article, or merely a quick mention in the feminism article, but pro-feminist could be defined as:
- A pro-feminist supports the views and goals of feminism. While the term may be used in the general sense, some writers apply it only to men, believing that the feminist movement has to be sexually exclusive.
Is this neutral enough for use (somewhere)? Ed Poor
Just what is supposed to be the difference between a "feminist" and a "pro-feminist"?
- According to the version I wrote, none (except that some exclusionary feminists want to call male feminists "pro-feminists" rather than "feminists". I'm not sure a separate article is needed at all. Ed Poor
- Exactly. Pro-feminism is an expresion of anti-male contempt by feminists. However maybe that sort of thing belongs in the feminism article / sub-heading of feminist attitudes to men and women, rather than in a stub. I can go along with this white-wash stub for now but in a longer article (ie an actual encyclopedia rather than dictionary article) you'd have to explore the inherent anti-male contempt in "pro-feminist". David Byron
As a matter of interest does anyone know of any female "pro-feminists"?
This term has bothered me since I read it, although I appreciate Ed Poor's attempts to re-write it in as neutral tone as possible, and I also recognize that my own doubts about it reflect my own bias. But I think for me the crux of the matter is this: how widespread, in fact, is the usage of this term? I personally have never heard anyone use it, nor have I ever heard a feminist say that a man cannot be a feminist.
I realize my experiences are limited -- as are anyone's, and I wouldn't question the possibility that there has been one female feminist at one point in time who has challenged a particular male for calling himself a feminist. The question is not has it ever happened, but does it happen a lot? If it doesn't happen a lot, I am not sure what purpose an article would serve (and I could understand why many would take such an article to be provocative). Has "Ms. Magazine" ever published an article about this? Has NOW ever issued a statement? I am not trying to raise some meta-issue of whether all claims in articles must have sources. I really would like to know if anyone out there has read an article by a major feminist arguing that men cannot be feminists, and I'd like to know if there was any public debate in feminist organizations in response.
As a matter of fact, I always understood the name of NOW -- the National Organization for Women -- to deliberately imply that many feminists are, can be, and perhaps ought to be, men (i.e. the name is NOT the National Organization "of" Women).
In the meantime, all I can say is I never heard anyone use the term "pro-feminist" and I never heard any feminist claim that men cannot be feminists. -- SR
- "how widespread, in fact, is the usage of this term? I personally have never heard anyone use it, nor have I ever heard a feminist say that a man cannot be a feminist. I realize my experiences are limited ..."
- That's what Google is for! :-)
I've heard it a lot from male feminists on-line. Of course they are only a small minority of feminists in the first place. As a proportion of male feminists who are serious about their feminism I'd say it was popular, but even then I wouldn't say it was a majority. It does seem to be a term strictly for men only because the whole point is that a woman would simply call herself "feminist". To my mind it is the male counterpart to the female radical separatist style feminist.
I see that feminist.com (basically the Ms/ Feminist Majority Foundation bunch) uses the term to list all men's groups that are 'feminist' http://www.feminist.com/resources/links/links_men.html
Here's a book that mentions it in the title: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0807067679/002-8620260-9756867
Generally the dedicated gender issues sites on both sides of the debate use the term.
There's even a www.profeminist.org
Oddly NOW didn't seem to use the term. Maybe they wanted to avoid "jargon"? David Byron
Merge?
I am of the opinion that this page ought to be merged with the main feminism article. What do y'all think?--Josiah 04:28, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)