Talk:Politics of Germany

Copied this from User talk:Istabraq to better continue discussion here. djmutex 08:10 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

In your last change on Germany, you wrote "1:1 translations of «Bundestag» and «Bundesrat» don't work. «Federal Assembly» is the body that elects the head of state in Germany.", and changed the (working) links to Federal Assembly of Germany and Federal Council of Germany to the (broken) "Upper Chamber of Parliament" and "Lower Chamber of Parliament", respectively. I have reverted that edit, and let me explain why.

1. The older links worked, the new ones don't.
2. Upper house and Lower house are incorrect names for the two. "Upper" and "lower" only makes sense, if at all, in systems like Britain, where you have a House of Lords and a House of Commons. What makes the Bundesrat more "upper" than the Bundestag?
3. It is even very dubious if Germany has a bicameral system at all. The majority of literature on German state theory (of which I had to read plenty in University) says it doesn't; I have listed the major points on the Federal Council of Germany page.

Now, I agree that the translations aren't perfect. I'd rather use the German terms of Bundestag and Bundesrat for the articles, but that is in conflict with Wiki policy that states English names should be used wherever possible. But your change makes this worse, really. djmutex 18:08 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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1. Sorry, it wasn't my intention to create broken links. However, maintaining the links should only be a minor problem.
2. "Upper" and "Lower" is often used as a distinction when a country has more than one chamber of parliament. This certainly doesn't apply only to Westminster. It's the usual wording for the system in Japan, Italy, Switzerland and many more.
3. In this context "Upper" and "Lower" are not used to create any form of superiority or precedence of one to the other.
4. I don't want to discuss whether or not Germany has a bicameral system, although a number of points can be raised in favour of this notion given the powers of the «Bundesrat» to influence legislation.
5. The Swiss federal government is also called «Bundesrat». Do you have a "hard" translation for that too?

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I copied the dicussion here so other people familiar with terminology of politics in English will more easily find it, and here's my € 0.02.

Since you asked me on my talk page how I came up with the Federal Assembly of Germany and Federal Council of Germany translations: I didn't. These articles existed when I started adding stuff to them, and I figured someone with more knowledge of such terminology in English had a reason to call these articles as such.

I am not entirely happy with these two terms and wouldn't mind using Bundestag and Bundesrat (especially since Reichstag (institution) and Reichstag (building) use the German term too, and for a reason), but then the present terms are better than "Upper Chamber of Parliament" and "Lower Chamber of Parliament"" for several reasons.

1. If these terms are used for parliament in Switzerland, then fine; they are not traditionally in Germany.
2. In my view (and that of textbooks on German constitutional law), Germany's system is not designed as bicameral. It may, by now, appear as one since the Bundesrat has a say with a lot of legislation, but that is not how the system was designed. It is thus at least debatable (and definitely debated) whether the system has two chambers, and creating articles that suggest it does thus violates NPOV. I don't mind discussing the issues, but then it's presently done in Federal Council of Germany and shouldn't be stated as fact in the titles.
3. Even if Germany's system were undoubtedly bicameral, calling the articles "Upper Chamber of Parliament" etc. without any reference to Germany is a bad idea.

So, here's my suggestion.

Could the someone who came up with the present two "Assembly" and "Council" articles please come forward and explain why these were chosen? And could people maybe come up with a better solution? Thanks. djmutex 08:10 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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Interesting. However Wikipedia's policy is not to translate everything into english, but to use the name used in english. Bundestag and Bundesrat are used widely in english, far more widely than any translation. Media coverage talks about the French Chamber of Deputies so in that instance the english translation rather than the French original is correct to use. But they talk about the Irish Dáil not the Irish House of Representatives, so though a gaelic word Dáil is treated as in effect an honorary english word. Similarly people write and talk about the "German Bundestag" not the "German Federal Assembly". (In fact the only time I have ever seen that in twenty years reading about politics is in one US newspaper.) Also using the german names that are widely used in english avoids the complications of finding a correct english translation. In contrast it would be wrong for example to talk about the Federal President being elected by the Bundesversammlung since that word is not used in english; its translation, the Federal Convention is instead.

In other areas, wiki talks about the Tsar, the Kaiser, the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Fuhrer, the Seanad, the Ceann Comhairle, the Cathaoirleach, Éire etc, again non-english words which are used in english and so treated as de-facto english. Bundestag and Bundesrat are the same.

As to whether Germany is a bicameral system, it is complicated but I would conclude having revisited the Basic Law (constitution), that it is more accurate to say that it is than it isn't, though it is quite a different form of bicameralism than elsewhere. The reasons include:

• the requirement that laws passed by the Bundestag in certain areas require the consent of the Bundesrat.
• Both Houses can create a Meditations Committee to solve disputes.

When I studied political science, both of the above were seen as central definitions of whether a parliament is or isn't bicameral. If two united the legislative process are involved in law-making, with either having the right to veto, revise or change a law made by the other, with provision made for a commitee of both Houses to agree a compromise, the system is bicameral. If only one Houses makes laws and no other House has a revisionary or approval role, then it is unicameral. But there are different forms of bicameralism, with the full relationship in each nation differing in terms of scale.

The english language summary at the beginning of the Basic Law actually mentions "both Houses". So on balance, though it is markedly different form of bicameralism, the fact that two houses may play part of the legislation-making process and a committee is provided for to solve disputes, makes it at the very least quasi-bicameral.

In view of the naming conventions and the usage of non-english words in wiki when they are generally accepted in the english language, I propose to put the two houses' names in as Bundestag and Bundesrat. We can work on an in brackets translation separately, though I would go for the terms used in the english translation of the Basic Law, which are Bundestag = Federal Parlament, Bundestag = Council of Constituent States (though Federal Council is also a version I have heard and makes sense also.) FearÉIREANN 19:37 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I vote for Bundestag and Bundesrat, as well. I think those are almost universally used in English. john 19:39 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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Wonderful! Thanks, everyone. Unfortunately, FearÉIREANN, you had a typo when moving; it's "Bundesrat", not Bundestrat, where the page is now. I can't fix it cos the present Bundesrat page appears to have a non-empty history. Could some admin clean up the mess, please? djmutex 19:49 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Mea culpa. My new browser is using a hideous font which I am trying to change. It makes it hard to spot any inadvertently added spelling mistakes; it makes it bloody hard to read anything! (Being high on drugs doesn't help either. But they are the legal type. I severely injured by ankle in a fall on a broken pavement on Sunday and have strong painkillers from my doctor, and a solictor to sue Dublin City Council for the disgraceful state they left the pavement, and as a result of their incompetence, my anke, in. Which reminds me I must take the next batch of painkillers. (And check to see is my ankle still the shape of a deflated football!) Weeeeeee! :-) FearÉIREANN 20:54 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, it worked out, didn't it? Thanks for your efforts, and hope you'll be better soon. djmutex 07:43 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Bundesrat is a disambiguation page with links to German, Austrian, and Swiss Bundesraten (all, unfortunately, translated into English), ... "German Bundesrat" might be a better place for it, or "Bundesrat of Germany"... john 20:08 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Fixed the Bundesrat (disambig) page, and added a few words to Bundesrat (Germany). I very much like how the pages about Germany are now. djmutex 07:39 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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Should we try to find standard translations for other political phrases and words to? For example, on the Edmund Stoiber page he was namend "presidential minister", which was changed to "governor", which I changed to "Minister President" (capitals?). Is the right translation for "Ministerium" "ministry" or "Ministry" or "Dept."? Etc. -- till we *) 22:44 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I would go with ministry if talking non-specifically and Ministry if part of a full name of one. As to Minister President, it should be Minister-President as both words are cojoined, and again capitals if talking about a specific office of office-holder, minister-president if referring generically. So a minister-president, the Minister-President. These offices do have standard translations; the appearance of misleading words like governor and presidential minister is seriously worrying. A credible encyclopædia can't afford to have clangers like that. FearÉIREANN 23:08 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The somebody would use "Governor" for the Minister-President of a German Bundesland is rather disturbing. I think calling Stoiber the "Premier" of Bavaria would be appropriate as well (or maybe even "Prime Minister" - Bismarck is occasionally called "Prime Minister" of Prussia, when his title was actually Minister-President). But "governor" or "presidential minister" are just ridiculous. john 04:46 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Jtdirl, Chicago Manual of Style confirms your capitalization rules (14th ed., par. 7.16), so it's "President Bush", but "Bush was president". I am just wondering, is this rule American English or is it in common use in Britain too? I believe the British tend to capitalize more than the Americans; at least I keep seeing titles capizalized everywhere in the 'pedia, so either the rule is not universically accepted, or people have no clue. :-) There should really, really be a word on this in Wikipedia:Manual of Style. djmutex 07:19 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I am not quite happy with the lines " This principle has been quite reversed in practice through many amendments of the constitution since 1949, leaving basically only police and cultural affairs to be handled by state legislature." in the first part "Federalism". This is simply not true, education and science topics for example are fields of authority exclusivly for the Bundesländer, and there are many other examples. Should be changed! (I wouldn't want to do it myself, my english is not nearly good enough --Lode 12:47, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Bicameral or not

This has somewhat been discussed before without much of a resolution. Common dictum holds that Germany's legislature is indeed bicameral. It may be different from how the British Parliament or the United States Congress operates, but that doesn't make it any less bicameral.

Wikipedia's very own article on bicameralism specifically states that "bicameralism is the practice of having two legislative or parliamentary chambers. Thus, a bicameral parliament or bicameral legislature is a parliament or legislature which consists of two Chambers or Houses". I believe this applies to Bundestag and Bundesrat because

1. There are two legislative chambers: Bundestag and Bundesrat
2. They have different responsibilities. Specifically, not all bills have to be approved by the Bundesrat. On the other hand, it can veto a bill which can be overridden the Bundestag (all in article 77, GG).
3. It is true that the delegates in the Bundesrat are appointed by the governments of the federal states. However, that was true for the United States Senate until 1912 as well.

The bicameralism article also lists Germany as one of the countries that employ the concept.

Overall, the purpose of categorization is to find similarities between similar, not equal, objects. There are vast differences between the United States House and Senate on one hand and the British House of Commons and House of Lords on the other. Yet they are both considered bicameral. With that, I can't find any good reason why Germany should stick out in that regard. sebmol 07:46, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I concur. Furthermore, I'm quite happy with the current English wording for the constitutional entities Bundestag=Federal Diet, Bundesrat=Federal Council, Bundesversammlung=Federal Assembly - makes all perfect sense to me now. ;) --Istabraq 19:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

German Visa Affair 2005

Could a third person interested in German politics have a look at German Visa Affair 2005 and it's talk page, please? -- till we ☼☽ | Talk 11:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)