Talk:Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

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Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is a featured article, which means it has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, feel free to contribute.

Merger with The Noble Republic

How about merging the articles Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and The Noble Republic, since they are related to essentially the same? Besides, I strongly suspect that the term "Noble Republic" is a catchy phrase from a history article, rather than a term really used in these times. Even if not, IMO the proper name of the merged article would be Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, according to the "official" name of the state. Mikkalai 20:55, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I guess the merger is possible, but it would require some careful restructuring. Or one can consider it as an expansion - advanced version of this page. Personally I prefer to add new articles then meddle with those two, they dont look very broken to me. --Piotrus 15:12, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

News: concensus on Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Poland is that Noble Republic should be dedicated to history or perhaps the discussion of PLC political system. Anyway the PLC article will be the main article for this period, with several subarticles like Noble Republic. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:24, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or Commonwealth of Two Nations?

Interseting fact is that the official translation is not correct. In Polish language, the exact term is Commonwealth of Two Nations (Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodow), not Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (Polsko-Litweska Rzeczpospolita - I have never heard that one before!). Some redirects and a note should fix that easily, though :)

It is not a translation though, it's the name and term used in the English language.Milicz 20:31, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC) I have another question though, Rzeczpospolita supposedly means "Republic" which we as Poles certainly know that it does not really mean, we have the word "republika" for that. I have never heard Rzeczpospolita be refered to anything other than specifically Poland in the Polish language, and therefore it is a word that means more than just Republic or Commonwealth. "Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodow", if we take the dictionary translation, would literally be "Republic of Two Nations", not "Commonwealth of Two Nations". Commonwealth on the otherhand would be "Federacja" or "Wspólnota" (Look at the CIS and corresponding Polish translation). Just thought I'd throw that in to confuse everyone. Milicz 21:19, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is why we have an article dedicated to clear this confusion: Rzeczpospolita. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:35, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't know that, isn't Wikipedia great? Milicz 23:02, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have seen multiple times rzecczpospolita being used with context of Rzeczpospolita Wenecka and all that little staes in Italy created by Napoleon. I also saw Rzplita rzymska referring to Roman period. All those references are however quite old and rare; Szopen 07:19, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Was it part of the Commonwealth...

Polish-Lithuania If you take into account that today Estonia was created from the Estonia province and norhern part of Livland Dorpat Tartu, Estonia also inherited some land from the commonwealth. Province of Estonia was claimed by Poland, but I don't know if ever achieved. Cautious 11:59, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Sory, my bad. Indeed, for brief period 1582-1625 Lifland was under Polish rule, as well as Southern Estonia. I was looking at wrong maps.Any pieces of PLC in Germany and Chechs? BTW, what's your opinion about my proposal above?Mikkalai 16:17, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Enthusiastic. Especially, that Noble Republic is written from the perspective of the rotten end. I would prefer to construct it like this:

Glory 80 years with some threads of future failure

Deluge -crisis

Decay with underline of some successes

second half XVII century

Russian protectorate

Partition and national awakening

If take a look at the churches or castles, XVIII century with all its decay, shows some achievements. Cautious 16:24, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

As far I am concerned, no part of present day Germany or Bohemia was ever part of the commonwealth. You can mention Tobago Island. Cautious 16:26, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Uhm, Tobago was a personal property of the Duke of Courland so it had only a very indirect link with the PLC. But then, why not not mention it? kpalion 16:20, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

King Sigismund III promised to give (and gave) Swedish Estonia to Commonwealth, however Swedish Diet did not accept it (so one could argue that at least for a short time the whole Estonia was in Commonwealth). After rebellion led by his uncle Karl, troops of Karl captured first Finland (pro-Sigismund) and later Estonia in 1600 (before 1600 Estonia (I guess) was trying to be neutral). Polish counter-offsensive in 1603 recaptured big part of Estonia (but without main port cities). Finally Swedish counter-counter-offsensive took it back at the end of 1607.; source: Wisner, Kircholm 1605; Zbyszek

Good enough for external links?

I have a page dedicated to the Commowealth XVII century - http://www.wodzu.tonet.pl/republika_prokonsularna/En/163xCoTNRP.html

It is not yet finished, but it contains some useful info, I think. Do u think it is worth adding it in the related links section?

--Piotrus 15:08, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Political system of the PLC: a republic?

was the polish-lithuanian commonwealth a classical republic in the sense of plato and aristotle? Classical definition of republic

Um, that article is SO bad I cannot even find the DEFINITION of the republic out there :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:49, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Considering modern definition of the republic, I'd call it rather a parliamentary democracy with very limited voting electorate. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:49, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Not so limited, 8 to 10 % of the society is quite a high ratio as for the period in history when most nobles in Europe had no voting rights at all, not to mention common people... [[User:Halibutt|Halibu tt]] 19:44, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

The problem here is that definitions change over time. For example, the term 'democracy' was actually a rather negative description (like today the term anarchy) untill sometime in XIX century. And then there is the fact that today's people tend to think that the term democracy = state, government, capitalism and lots of other things ('all things bright and beautiful' :D). Compared to its contemprary countries, PLN was quite democratic in that today's sense of the world. Compared to today's countries, it is obviously not a shining example. As for the right term to desribe its government, I will have to do more search on that. Republic...parliamentary monarchy...ehhh, one thing is sure - it was very unique *something* :D --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:39, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Religion in the PLC

Note> I have no idea if this edit send is going to work or not

While reviewing the article on the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, it lists the established church as Roman Catholic.

I do not know exactly, about the status of the Roman Catholic church in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at the time. (In other words, was it considered to be 'established', within the Lithuanian sectors.) It was during a period of time in which there was not much religious pluralism in Europe. However, when Poland and Lithuania united, Lithuania was Eastern Orthodox. This produced conditions that resulted in many ways, in a greater level of religious pluralism within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, in comparison with most of Europe at the same time.

This is mentioned in the article. I am not sure, however, of the exact status of the Roman Catholic church within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth at that time. Would religious pluralism be a better categorisation of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth with respect to religion at the time? What was the reilgious status of the Lithuanian sectors?

-Editalicus

Good point. I believe it was rather pluralism until the times of counter-reformation (when with the support of Vasa dynasty, catholicism gained an upper hand in the PLC), but I am not sure how was it reflected in law. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:43, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have done some more digging and I have grown somewhat more skeptical. Perhaps the relation between Poland-Lithuania and the Eastern Orthodox church and many of the more western Protestant sects might have been closer to something like the relationship between the Byzantine Empire and the Roman Catholic church and the Monophystites and Nestorians in the early middle ages. There were times in which Poland-Lithuania might have extended all the way to include Odessa. I will see if I can find much on Algirdas or earlier.

Editalicus 01:32, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

FAC discussion

If any, please post here IF this is not applicable on FAC own discussion page. I intend to develop this article further with subarticles for each section, but I believe it may be considered for FA in its present state. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:24, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Tone

I feel that there may be a slightly "pro-Commonwealth" bias in this article. I am by no means an expert on the subject, my knowledge based largely on a survey course on eastern European history in the earlymodern period. However, it seems to me, that comments such as these are common:

"At a time when most European countries were headed in the direction of centralisation, absolute monarchy and religious and dynastic warfare, the Commonwealth experimented with decentralisation, federation, democracy, religious tolerance and pacifism (since Sejm usually vetoed the monarchs' war declarations, it constitutes an interesting argument in favor of the democratic peace theory)."

This seems to be quite positive toned, which is not necessarily bad. However, the article as a whole seems to gloss over the fact that the noble class dominated the state, and calling it "democratic" is fairly exaggerated. I realise that, for its time, it may have been quite democratic. HOwever, it was still dominated by a small portion of the population, AND as the main point, my understanding is that the peasants of the area had relatively fewer rights than many other areas of Europe, so an argument could be made that it was less democratic.

I am willing to be corrected on this point, but felt I should bring it up, in case it does have some merit. Peregrine981 14:27, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)

I admit I find the Commonwealth very interesting and it might have resulted in some bias in the article. I did want to underline the importance of the 'noble's democracy' and while the Commonwealth was definetly not democratic by today's standards, it was quite distinct from its conetmporary countries. In the end, 10% of its population (szlachta) lived in a democracy, compared to roughly nobody in other European countries. As for the peasant situation, the return to serfdom is mentioned in the lead. Feel free to improve that and expand the article with Commonwealth faults, I'd be happy for some assistance here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:54, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I shall certainly do what I can. I will be out of town for a week or so starting this weekend, so I may not get a chance to do anything too soon, but I will keep an eye on things when I come back. I'm quite impressed with this article overall! As to the democracy, I suppose you could say it was democratic in a way. I was taught that the most notable aspect of the commonwealth was the weakness of the central regime as compared to the nobility, and this had its benefits and weaknesses, and one weakness was the inability to inforce "impartial" justice for non-nobles, or to introduce policy that went against their wishes... I suppose these ideas are somewhat covered in the article. Peregrine981 05:26, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)

I also have a feeling there is a bias. Contradictory passages at times:

"Its powerful parliament (the Sejm) was dominated by nobles who were reluctant to wage offensive wars... The Commonwealth was mostly victorious ... and even managed for a time to take Moscow during the Russian Time of Troubles."

Sigizmund's interference into the Russian civil war was a definite offensive action, which had its large part in shaping less than amicable relations between the two countries. May be this passage about the non-agressive nature of the 17-th century PLC can be toned down.

Well, all of that is true. Sejm blocked many agression wars - which was unique, cause in most countris of that time, when king (sultan, tsar...) decided he wanted a war, he would wage it, no questons asked. True, PLC Sejm didn't block Dimitriads - but it is rather an exception that proves the rule. PLC was a very 'pacifist' country if compared to its contemporaries. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Another example is the claim of religious tolerance. Although largely true, it has to be qualified: the role that the Catholisism of the nobility and the Orthodoxy of the peasantry played in the Khmelnitsky uprising has to be at least mentioned. Gaidash 14:27, May 8, 2005

Well, feel free to instert this. Counterreformation was one of the resons for the donwfall of the religious tolerance and Commonwealth itself (or so Jasienica argues). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Seems clear to me that, like today's parliaments and other legislatures, the Sejm was a check on the abuse of executive power (and, indeed, is one of the precedents often cited for separation of powers, etc.) but equally clear that, of course, the Commonwealth was not incapable of ever pursuing aggressive war or religious intolerance, any more than that could be said of modern democracies. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:26, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

Name Change?

It is important to use the most common name when titling a Wikipedia article, in part because it makes the article more likely to be found from a google search. Thus, here the article on the country whose capital is Moscow is located at "Russia" (55.7 milion hits on google), not "Russian Federation" (7.8 million hits).

In my admittedly somewhat limited experience, I've found the simpler form "Poland-Lithuania" to be considerably more common in English-language material, and the territory is usually marked as such on maps, etc.

Unfortunately, the "google test" for "Poland-Lithuania" is difficult to apply as google does not seem to distinguish between "Poland-Lithuania", "Poland, Lithuania", and "Poland/Lithuania", and from the 42,600 hits for "Poland-Lithuania", one can only estimate from the first few pages that perhaps a little more than 60%, about 26,000 pages, are referencing the Commonwealth. This is considerably more than the 14,100 hits found for "Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth". What do you think?--Pharos 06:07, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I was thinking about moving this article to its more correct name Republic of Both Nations, which is a better translation of the original name, but I'm afraid this name is rarely used in English. As to Poland-Lithuania I have no fixed opinion yet. From one POV it would be similar to other articles on states that are placed at their shortened names rather than full names. On the other hand however, the articles on historical states are often located at their full names, to avoid ambiguate names. Duchy of Athens (not Athens), Congress Poland (not Poland), Republic of Texas (not Texas or Tejas) or Weimar Republic (not Germany) are a good example. What do the rest of folks think? [[User:Halibutt|[[User:Halibutt|]]]] 08:49, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we should ask on some historical usenet group and/or do a poll? Untill we have some telling numbers, I'd vote to leave the article where it is. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:17, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Good job"!

Bravo! Good job! You managed to write an article about Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów without mentioning Belarus and Litvins (Belarusans) a single time. Amazing job. Only Polish "historians" could write such a "great" article. Wow! Impressive. --rydel 00:07, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd appreciate your 'praise' more if you had actually cared to *read* the article, as Belarus is mentioned twice, once in the lead, and second time in the beginning of the 'Provinces and geography' section. It seems enough to me, given that that state didn't exist until 20th century as a separate entity. The article also has sections on culture and demography mentionig distinct cultures of the Commonwealth. When you are done insulting others, feel free to do something constructive, like wrie a new article or improve existing one. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:39, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, Rydel, you too did a great job writing a great comment without reading the article. But seriously, there's noone here trying to offend anyone or erase anyone from any story. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but Poles are mentioned only once in the article - as a slight minority in GDL... What a bias... Halibu tt 13:40, Dec 26, 2004 (UTC)

Piotrus, I did read the article, of course. I was exaggerating a bit when I said "not a single time". But in my opinion, it should be renamed to "Polish-Commonwealth-the-Polish-perspective" or something.

'"given that that state didn't exist until 20th century as a separate entity"' - don't pretend you don't understand. I'm not talking about modern Lukashenka's Belarus, I'm talking about the Litvin part of the commonwealth (Lithuanian-Litvin-Belarusan), the Grand duchy.

'When you are done insulting others' - I was not insulting anyone. I just expressed an opinion that the article only presented 50% of the two peoples, namely "1 people". ;) And therefore appears to be not NPOV.

'feel free to do something constructive, like wrie a new article or improve existing one' - I don't think I have the expertise and the capacity to do that. But I did study history in high school, and of course we studied our common state Rzecz Pospolita for several weeks. And we had a different perspective.

At the minimum, if nothing else, I would like to see a paragraph on polonization: how Litvin schlachta abandoned Old Belarusian and switched to Polish. Also I would not mind seeing a paragraph about how this dual state caused a big problem of self-identification and national identity for our people from the Litvin part - such as [[Adam Mickiewicz] with "Litwo, ojczyzno moje" and Tadeusz Kosciuszko with statements that "I was born Litvin". --rydel 14:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I see "Polish perspective" in only one place - "While the Commonwealth's first century was a Golden Age for both Poland and Lithuania..." - neither Lithuanian historiography, nor common people affected by this historiography find Commonwealth's first century a Golden Age for Lithuania. Indeed, exactly in 1569 Grand Duchy lost about 1/3 of its territory to Poland, and the Lublin union is usually considered a start of decay of Grand Duchy in Lithuania. However I am not sure how to correct the current article to avoid this Polish POV.

That's interesting. I'd like to read more about Lithuanian point of view. I thought that the union and Commonwealth were beneficial for them - after all, wasn't the main reason for it - from their perespective - that they could not stand alone against Teutonic Order and Muscovy? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:25, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It was beneficial for both of them, but modern historians, or rather nationalistic instincts tend to make Poland look more like an occupier than an equal partner in the Commonwealth. Almost every type of state has a Golden Age, and it is rather accepted that the Commonwealth's Golden Age was during this period, whether it was good for Lithuanians apart from the Commonwealth is, in my view, an improper interpretatation or view.Milicz 20:44, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Remarkable religios tolerance" is a huge exaggeration - tolerance prevailed only at certain time periods followed by persecutions of anabaptists and other denominations. Dirgela 06:45, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, it was remarkable compared to its contemporary countries. Consider: counter-reformance limited to word propaganda only, both catholics and protestants in high official positions, catholic churches and believers coexisting peacefully not only with protestants, but greekocatholics, Jews synagogues and even muslims! And no Jews prosecution, so common in other places then. True, from the late 17th century this started to slowly dissapear - as did most of everything in the PLC at that time. But the 16th and first half of 17th century, it was 'remarkable'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:25, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have no desire nor time to start an argument here, since I believe any kind of flames are a giant waste of time for all parties considered. This is why I wont explain how you insulted me or others with your comments, especially as you admited yourself you exaggerated. Adressing your more concrete comments:

in my opinion, it should be renamed to "Polish-Commonwealth-the-Polish-perspective" or something - let me disagree. As Halibutt mentions, Poland is not dominating the article. It mentions various cultures and regions. And as a sidenote, Poland - the Crown - was an important part of the Commonwealth and its dominant culture. What criteria do you use for determining that the article is biased in Poland's favour? It would immensly help if you listed them instead of relying soley on 'your opinion'.

And we had a different perspective - great. Care to share the details of it? Other then it being diffrent?

I would like to see a paragraph on polonization - are you sure you *read* the article? Please reread section Demographics and religion. It is already there. Feel free to expand it or write an article about polonization and ilink it. Just in case, let me copy'n'paste the relevant paragraph here: The population of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was never either overwhelmingly Roman Catholic nor Polish. This circumstance resulted from Poland's federation with Lithuania, where ethnic Poles were a distinct minority. To be Polish was then much less an index of ethnicity than of rank; it was a designation largely reserved for the landed noble class, which included members of Polish and non-Polish origin alike. Generally speaking, the ethnically non-Polish noble families of Lithuania adopted the Polish language and culture. As a result, in the eastern territories a Polish or Polonized aristocracy dominated a peasantry whose great majority was neither Polish nor Catholic. Moreover, the decades of peace brought huge colonization efforts to Ukraine, heightening the tensions among peasants, Jews and nobles. The tensions were aggravated by conflicts between Eastern Orthodoxy and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church following the Union of Brest, and by several Cossack uprisings. In the west and north, many cities had sizable German minorities, often belonging to Reformed churches.

a paragraph about how this dual state caused a big problem of self-identification (...) - good addition to the polonization article, but I think it is too detailed for the Commonwealth article itself, given it already mentions most of the related phenomena.

Finally. As the article became featured, I treat it as a vote of confidence that it is sufficently NPOVed already. Of course, feel free to improve it. And consider, if you don't have the expertise and the capacity to do that, perhaps you are, what a preposterous idea, mistaken or at least slighty biased yourself here? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:17, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Congratulations

on well-deserved Featured Article status. I hope my editing yesterday helped.

A couple of comments on some recent correspondence:

Though neither Belarusian nor Lithuanian, I can see some validity to rydel's overall point. The upper crusts of these two peoples were indeed Polonized under the Commonwealth, due to historical processes. "Polonization" might indeed make an interesting article (as might "Germanization," "Russification," "Americanization," etc.). Another "Polonized Lithuanian" was Jozef Pilsudski--as I sheepishly indicated in a November 14, 2004, revision of my article, in response to an earlier, November 12 revision that noted Pilsudski's Lithuanian extraction. (As of December 12, he has reverted to being simply "Polish.")

Questions of national identity can only become more prominent over coming decades, as all Europeans tussle with their senses of self--and with difficulties over literally finding (a) common language(s) that they can adequately master.

Again, congratulations!

Logologist 22:18, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, nice job! I was just about to nominate it myself, and discovered I had been beaten to it. --P3d0 04:29, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

Brawo Panowie, artykul pojawil sie na glownej stronie jako "featured article"--Emax 00:13, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Map

Why does the map 450px-Pol-lith_commonwealth_map.jpg show the Duchy of Prussia labelled as "RUS"? This is now claimed by Russia as the Kaliningrad Oblast, but historically it was not part of Russia until the second world war. Ifdef 19:18, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's because the map shows the borders of the PLC superimposed on the present-day borders. That's why the Kaliningrad Oblast is marked as Russian. I thought that's quite obvious from the caption, but apparently I was wrong... Halibu tt 03:06, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Oops, you're right. I should learn to read more carefully. Thanks Ifdef 16:58, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ok Halibutt, there is an error on this map. Inflanty (Livonia) belonged to Crown and Grand Duchy, so another/yellow color could be used, but Courland could not be a fief of Livonia, since Liviona did not have its own legal identity (in that sense like Crown or Lithuania). Dukes of Courland were vassals of Commonwealth king, I do not remember if as a King of Poland or Grand Duke of Lithuania, but not vassals of Livonia, which was simly one of many voivodships in Commonwealth. Zbyszek

Galicia

Probably ignorant question: I'm surprised by the fact that the place-name "Galicia" does not occur in this article. Was it not used in this period, or what? -- Jmabel | Talk 22:27, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

No, it wasn't used in that period. The name "Galicia and Lodomeria" was invented by the Austrians for the chunk of the Commonwealth which they took during the partitions (1772 and 1795). It is a Latinized name for the ancient duchies of Halych and Volodymyr which were briefly under Hungarian domination (hence the Austrian "claims" to them) but later became part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and then -- of the PLC. Within the PLC, these territories were part of the province of Lesser Poland (Małopolska). In fact, the name "Galicia" is not widely used by the Poles, except when talking about the period between 1772 and 1918; mostly because its use was part of the partitioners' broader plan to totally eradicate the very name "Poland". – Kpalion (talk) 03:03, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I was writing more or less the same when my computer crashed. And no Kpalion beat me to it... Shame on you ;) What can I add? Perhaps that the article on Galicia (Central Europe) is pretty good... Halibu tt 03:21, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the article on Galicia (Central Europe) is pretty good, but it says that the name is much older, and doesn't really make clear its disuse during the period of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (although I guess you could get that by reading between the lines). I am not confident enough in this matter to make the edit in Galicia (Central Europe), but perhaps someone else should? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:00, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I finally added a new section to the Galicia (Central Europe) which explains the history of the name of Galicia. But history of the region itself still needs to be revised and expanded. Actually, this article isn't pretty nice, it sucks. I hope I'll find some time to work on it (I probably won't have time, but will work on it anyway...) – Kpalion (talk) 01:57, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Danzig

The City of Danzig, under Polish suzerainty from 1466 until Poland's dissolution in 1795, was allowed by King Sigismund to adopt Lutheranism in the 1570s. Therefore the Commonwealth appears to have embraced Lutheranism, Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

Well, one of the Commonwealth claims to fame was its unrivaled religious tolerance, which actually existed even before the Union of Lublin and creatiin of the Commonwealth. On the other hand, it begun to decline in the second part of 17th century, just as the religious restrictions and persecution waned from Western Europe following the end of Thirty's Year War. Starting with the reign of Zygmunt III Waza, Catholicism became a dominant (most pupular) religion in the PLC, but all others (including judaism and even islam) were tolerated. What's your point, actually, dear anon? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:05, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Timeline

I started to prepare a timeline of the PL-C, the draft is available at User:Halibutt/timeline. Please feel free to expand/modify/alter it. Halibu tt 10:56, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)

My question is *sort* of related to timelines: What's going on with this back-and-forth between Piotrus and the person identified by IP address? One of them writes that the Commonwealth ended in 1795 with the Third Partition, while the other one claims that the 1791 constitution actually ended the Commonwealth as a commonwealth. While I don't know enough to participate in the *content* of that discussion, I find the *form* of the discussion to be somewhat childish: change, revert, make same change, revert, make same change, revert. I can't tell if the IP-address person is just trying to vandalize the page, or if it's a POV issue, or if there is legitimate disagreement here, but I don't think I will find out if the argument continues only as "Did! Did not! Did! Did not! Did! Did not!" Could someone please enlighten me? Thanks. Ifdef 21:02, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I did leave several notes on the anon talk page (User talk:195.68.232.103), but he apparently doesn't read them/choses to disregard them. As far as I can tell, his reasoning is based around his comment: in the the May Constitution of Poland of 1791, the Lithuania was incorporated directly into the kingdom of Poland, thus the PLC ended. It is wrong, because although Lithuanian autonomy got somewhat limited, the name of the state didn't change (and it wasn't PLC, this is just a rough translation, the most common name used during that time would be just Rzeczpospolita). Besides, the constitution was never enforced and the PLC was destroyed in 1795, not in 1791. While the years 1790-1795 did witness major changes, I have not heard of any name change, and the article (which I wrote for the most part) covers the events and changes until 1795. I'd be happy to hear arguments against the above and see sources contradicting me, until then, I will revert the anon changes as vandalism. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 23:55, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Lithuanian name for Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

Originally, country we're talking about is called Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodów. In Lithuanian it used to be called as Žečpospolita but nowadays in every book it is called "Abiejų tautų respublika" or simply ATR. Shouldn't it be changed in the article? I'm not really confident, because Lithuanians used to call the country "Žečpospolita", but ATR is only the modern name for Commonwealth.

Tnx for the note, I update this. Does 'Abiejų tautų respublika' translates into Republic of Two Nations?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:38, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It translates to "Republic of Both Nations" Ifdef 04:41, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Federation or confederation?

Federation not Confederation

Please do not continue to replace "federal monarchy-republic" with "confederal monarchy-republic" wording. Both federation and confederation have their distinctive meanings (look up their respective definitions). The PLC was under single rule and had a single constitution, which clearly makes it a federation (unlike previous Polish-Lithuanian Union which probably could be considered as confederation. Wojsyl 12:21, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Confederation not "Federation"

PLC was confederation. There were: 1) different rulers - Grand Duke and King, only it was the same person (see personal union); 2) different teritories;

Sure - as in a province territory. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

3) different capitals - Vilnius and Cracow (later Warsaw);

The only capital of PLC (after 1569) was Warsaw - since it is where the king resided. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

4) different armies;

Really? Are you refering to pospolite ruszenie or wojsko kwarciane? Sure, there were separate Lithuanian hetmans which tended to be stationed in Lithuania, but the entire army was shuffled to were it was needed, with little regard for its 'home base'. With the exception of separate commander (hetman) and some of his officers, I don't recall any strictly Lithuanian or Polish formations. Lithuanian hetmans look more like provincial commanders of unified army then a commanders of a separate national army. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

5) different coffiers;

Sure. Provincial budget. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

6) different law;

Could you elaborate on that? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

7) different state institutions;

Sure. Provincial ones. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

8) other many differencies. There wasn't any single constitution in PLC as you state.

Constitution - not. But there were pacta conventa and varius szlachta privilige acts, which didn't differentiate between Crown or GDL. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And please don't change to federation in article (because it isn't truth) - it is vandalism. Antituteišas

Please register. You may be taken more seriously then. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Since 1569 Poland and Lithuania has a common Parliament (with representatives of both Poland and Lithuania), common monarch (no, it was not a "personal union" - the monarch was elected and there were no separate elections for Poland and Lithuania) and above all - common foreign policy. Wojsyl 19:09, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Since Lublin union there was one monarch, but different offices - King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania. There never was single foreign policy. In British Commonwealth is one monarch too. Antituteišas

Actually a common single policy was one of the bases of PLC. It was the main reason why Lithuanians wanted to the union, as it was the only way to drag Poland into the Lithuanian war against Moscow. For some reason you seem to be the only person believing that GDL had its own foreign policy within PLC. Can you elaborate a bit more on what makes you think so ? Wojsyl 19:44, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The line between federation and confederation is a thin one. GDL had significant autonomy, but (after 1569) it did not have its own foreign policy (it was the perogative of the Sejm), although I do recall that some Lithuanians magnates attempted from time to time to break that rule and usually draw PLC into the conflicts with Muscovy, usually with disasterous results (Dimitriads, The Deluge...). IIRC only the Grand Hetmans stationed in the south had perogatives to deal with Ottoman Empire and its vassals without Sejm approval, due to the unstable nature of this border (near constant war tends to create some exceptions). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:27, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Following Antituteišas' logic after the Union of Lublin the PLC was a confederation of 100 different states, since the ruler of that state had many more titles than just King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania. Which doesn't mean that "Ruthenia, Prussia, Masovia, Samogitia, Livonia, Smolensk, Kyiv, Volhynia, Podlachia or Siewierz and Czernichów" were separate states. We could argue about Sweden during the times of Sigismund III, but he also held the title of king of the Goths and Vandals. Does it mean that the state of Goths and the state of the Vandals were separate entities as well? Halibu tt 01:14, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Piotrus. Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was confederation of two sovereign states. There weren't single central gowernment and single capital in PLC. Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Kingdom of Poland weren't "provinces" but were the states. The name Commonwealth is very definite (it was started to use not by polish historians). Commonwealth can unite only states, not provinces . All your statements simply aren't truth. Ringaudas

Commonwealth is just one of the synonyms to republic in this context. And it comes from the same root as the Polish (and then Lithuanian) terms: the Latin term res publica - the common thing. Compare with Rzeczpospolita. So, contrary to what you think, the very term does not imply any particular internal structure of the state. It simply suggests that it was a republic, nothing more. Also take note that there are also other names for that state in English, for instance Republic of Both Nations...

Also, could you provide any evidence that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania had its own foreign policy, different from the one the Lithuanian Grand Dukes (and Polish kings at the same time) had? Halibu tt 22:30, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Its only your fantasies. Study deaper history. Respublica - polish term?! Maybe monkeys in Africa were polish too?))))))) Antituteišas

You don't have to study it, but it would make sense to actually read my post before you reply. And definitely you should reply to what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. I don't know why I am so patient, but I'll make it more clear for you:

Res Publica (Latin) = Rzeczpospolita (Polish) = Commonwealth (English) = Republic (English)

Halibu tt 07:40, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Res Publica (Latin) = Commonwealth (English), Commonwealth (English) = Republic (English) ?(!). Are you drunk or smoked? Antituteišas

No I'm not. Check the article on Commonwealth to see what I mean. In this context the term clearly refers to republican form of government since it is nothing more than a translation of the Polish term Rzeczpospolita. Halibu tt 11:13, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

I think you definitely are. Try to go out from your visions. Živinbudas

(Unsurprisingly, the anon signing as Živinbudas is editing from the same IP range as the anon signing as Antituteišas. Doubtless the same person.) -- Jmabel | Talk 05:25, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

He is back as Zivinbudas... --Witkacy 13:15, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

An interesting note from Polish usenet: "Otoz w zaleznosci od zrodel, ktore traktuja o tym zagadnieniu dostaniemy inna odpowiedz. Generalnie najczesciej pojawia sie stwierdzenie, ze byly to byty "quasi-" zarowno w znaczeniu federacyjnym, jak i konfederacyjnym. Nalezy tez pamietac o pewnej trudnosci zwiazanej ze stosowaniem slownictwa nowoczesnej politologii w odniesieniu do dawnych czasow." Thus it is impossible to end our discussion with 'it was a federation' or 'it was a confederation', since the other side will ALWYAS be able to say 'but...'. I suggest leaving it as a federation (because it is shorter :>) but adding a note which would explain what was said above in Polish: "Various sources contrafict each other, disputing wheter PLC was a federation or a confederation. There is also a problem applying modern definitons of those terms to the historical state. A most common compromise is that it was a quasi-federation and a quasi-confederation at a same time." Would such a note satisfy all parties? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:33, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

There wasn't single capital in PLC

There wasn't single capital in PLC. There was capital of Grand Duchy of Lithuania Vilnius and capital of Kingdom of Poland Cracow (later Warsaw). Antituteišas

Not really. After Casimir (Kazimierz IV/ Kazimieras Jogailaitis) became both king of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania, there was only one ruler (and one capital). So, technically speaking, since 1447 there was only one capital. Halibu tt 16:33, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Your statement isn't truth. Could you provide reliable sources? See personal union. Antituteišas

So you say that the same person (King/Grand Duke) was residing in two places at the same time? Bilocation, anyone? Halibu tt 17:16, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Don't be funny. See personal union . Please don't deal with vandalism. Antituteišas

So, what exactly is your argument? If by capital you consider not the place where the monarch resides, then what is it? The parliament(s) were held in a plethora of places, the highest tribunal was where the royal court was and then where the Sejms were, the military command was vested in the monarch (and, indirectly, in hetmans who resided in their own manors rather than in Warsaw, Cracow or Vilna), what else..?

Or perhaps your argument is that Poland and Lithuania had more than 100 capitals at the same time? Halibu tt 18:36, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Halibutt. You have to study deaper History of Lithuania and History of Poland. I don't know how history is provided today in Poland. Then you should know that monarches of Lithuania and Poland resided by rotation in both capitals from 15th century. Antituteišas

And Dear Halibutt. There is Vilnius in English language. Don't use Jewish Vilna in English text. Antituteišas

Ah, the agenda becomes clear. What is arguably the most common name in English is unacceptable to you, even on the talk page, because it passed into English through the Lithuanian Jews. Charming. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:38, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Let alone the agenda and the suggestion that I'm not knowledgeable enough, I asked for a clear definition of what a capital is. Apparently the capital for our friend is not the place where the monarch resides. So what is it then? Halibu tt 01:06, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Wilno was never capital of the PLC...--Witkacy 01:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

personal union

Personal union between Lithuania and Poland existed with considerable breakes from 1386. Antituteišas

Until 1569 when PLC was established. Wojsyl 19:10, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Of course. Antituteišas

PLC

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - it is very well-directed name. PLC was the same what today British Commonwealth is. Antituteišas

I agree it is the best name. Though if you want to compare it is not like todays BC - it is like todays "United Kingdom". Kubusja

Official languages

Was the Bielorussian really an official language in GDL? Obviously it was used by the peasantry, but was it official? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It was definitely not official language of the PLC.--Witkacy 01:46, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't know about PLC times, but I do remember reading in various places that Lithuanian was not used for court documents in earlier times. The peasants spoke Lithuanian, but the court documents were in Latin or in "Gudu kalba" (what is that in English? Belorusan?) Ifdef 16:06, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

As we good know in kingdom of poland peasantry spoke polish. In Grand Duchy of Lithuania a chancellary languages were Latin and Old Russian Chancellary Language. - Zivinbudas

Yes... the peasantry spoke Polish and the nobility Old Russian.. :)--Witkacy 14:05, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you drunk, Witkacy? Read correctly what is written. Chancellary - wrighting - languages. Could you inform what language spoke peasantry in kingdom of poland? (anonymous, 1 May 2005; presumably Zivinbudas)

I don't think this abusively worded comment merits an answer. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:01, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

I think this is comprehensive answer. 85.206.195.139 05:04, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Just to note here that Zivinbudas keeps restoring the same version of the article with blatantly false statements about official languages and with numerous misspellings. In some of the paragraphs that he/she is changing, the only effect is to restore misspellings. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:20, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Jmabel, thats your statements are false. I state: 1) PLC was confederation; 2) There wasn't one single capital in PLC - there were capitals of both states - Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Vilnius), Kingdom of Poland (Cracow, since 1596 Warsaw); 3) There were different official languages in GDL and KP; for example in GDL were many official languages - Latin, German, Old Russian Chancellary Language etcr. (polish became an official language in GDL only from late 17th century); 4) Lithuania made a personal union with poland in 1386. After this union was many times and for long broken - I would like at all to change this sentence (I will think). Zivinbudas 09:18, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Do tell me the details of the 4) ? 3) (languages) sounds probable, but it would help if you could give us source. For 1) and 2), which sounds rather more improbable, I'd appreciate sources as well. Your word and belief is not everything, I am afraid. Prove to us that you are right. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 11:26, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I was always taugth that the ~~official~~ state languages of Lithuania were Old Ruthenian (not Belarusian, for G*ds sake) and then, after the majority of GDL nobles adopted Polish language and culture, it was changed to Polish. The Archives of the Grand Duchy might be a decent proof of that (not a single word in Lithuanian language, BTW...). But perhaps our beloved Zivinbudas has other views on this topic, I don't know. Halibu tt 12:36, May 5, 2005 (UTC)

The 3rd-May Constitution and other documents from the end of 18th century use just the name "[The] Rzeczpospoolita", without any adjectives. There is a big mess there, because it were the kindoms and duchies that were the real entities. In the beginning of the 3rd-May Constitution we read that:

"Stanisław August [...] king of Poland, Grand Duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia [...] and confederated estates representing the Polish Nation [sic!] [...] declared the Constitution". Hereinafter we have a link to the Law entitled "Miasta nasze królewskie wolne w państwach Rzeczypospolitej" ("Our Royal Free Cities in the States of Rzeczpospolita").

In the act of the Union of Lublin I find (in Polish, unfortunately): "Które wszystkie artykuły my prełaci i panowie rady, książęta, posłowie ziemscy i ine wszystkie stany Wielgiego Księstwa litewskiego znając być chwalebne, potrzebne i obojemu temu narodowi, tak Korony polskiej jako Wielgiemu Księstwu litewskiemu, jako już jednej spolny a nierozdzielnej Rzeczypospolity pożyteczne, a spolnego naszego z stany tej sławny Korony polski z zezwolenia w ten list na ten kształt spisane".

Therefore the most proper name should be: "The Rzeczpospolita of both the Polish Crown and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania". The term "Rzeczpospolita" (Latin: "Res Publica") can be translated as "Commonwealth" (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_publica ). "The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth" seems to be the best shortening (but not the official name). Cf. also a long discussion of the names "United Kingdom" and "Great Britain" in N. Davies, "The Isles".

Marek J. Minakowski (great-great-great-great-great-grandson of Józef Radzicki, who signed the 3rd-May Constitution)

GDL

We use, in two places, the abbreviation "GDL" for Grand Duchy of Lithuania. We either need to properly introduce this (put "(GDL)" after the first mention of Grand Duchy of Lithuania) or not use it. Someone else's call as to which. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:16, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

to polish "administrators"

Why did you protect false polish version, but not discussed (see Talk:PLC -> above) last version? 85.206.193.33 10:03, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Disucss your suggested changes here and the article will be unprotected when a concensus is reached--nixie 10:47, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Posjol nachuj (russ.) 85.206.195.99 12:50, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Translation: "Posjol nachuj" = (lit: go onto a dick) "Fuck off"... It seems that Zivinbudas asking for a hard-ban :)--Witkacy 14:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

It is in russian language which you like slave very good understand. 85.206.195.43 17:21, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I missed you... By the way, it is not Russian language, it is "how little Joe thinks Russian looks like". Which doesn't make it less offensive, but at least makes it a tad funny. Halibu tt 21:30, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Hi there

I am a simple user of the Internet, some time ago I have encountered a "place" called WP, yes, it was this place. I must say that I found it as a great example of a great effort to share knowledge, to show the way in the darkness of unawareness. In my personal opinion this encyclopedia is much better than many commercial ones, it has the spirit. Furthermore, it is like a dynamic living organism. It constantly evolves, changes and what is the most important, usually to the better. Nevertheless, like every "being" it is endangered and threaten by many diseases. Some are like a cold, they disappear after a shor time. Unfortunately ther are some much more dangerous...this whole 85.206.195.99 guy or who ever he/she/it is, is like a cancer. And a kind of aggresive one. The one that attacks organ after an organ, the one that is trying to degenerate everything it encounters. This illness - 85.206.195.99 appears to be hard to get rid off, especialy when it's destructive "work" can be sensed in many tissues now. I know that this cancer is an anomaly that has no right to exist here, and I wish you much patient it the entire process of treatment. I believe, I know that you, the admins/doctors shall defeat the evil and heal this wiki-organism, the organism I have so much to thank (matura from history soon:)). Good luck (anon 4 May 2005)

Funny typical young polish fanatic. 85.206.194.143 18:21, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Mercator's map

I think that moving Mercator's map down a few lines would improve both the aesthetic and the logical flow of the document. Shinobu 10:53, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Be bold. Or we will, after the troll is gone and we can take the protection off. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:52, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Exclusive right to edit for polish "administrator" - provocateur "Piotrus"?

Where did disappeare mark of "protection" of this article? It happened after "unprotection" and making "changes" by polish "administrator" - falsificator "Piotrus" (See History of article). After this page was again "protected" but without mark. I understand that in wikipedia polish falsificators have exclusive rights, but... This is real face of sh... sorry wikipedia. Zivinbudas 16:48, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for "unprotection" after my question. Zivinbudas 18:45, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Golden Liberty

Złota Wolność literally means "Golden Liberty," in the singular, and probably should be so rendered into English, rather than as "Golden Freedoms," in the plural. "Liberty" is more a political term, "freedom" more a legal (even legalistic) one. In this context, "liberty" should probably be identified with wolność, "freedom" with swoboda. It would in no way affect the argument of the article to restore the unitary, historic timbre of "Golden Liberty." logologist 22:50, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Tnx for the note. I am now considering moving the content of Nobles' democracy to Golden liberty. What do you think of that - and should we use capital letters? See also talk on that page. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 09:36, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Please see Talk:Nobles' democracy. Capitals would seem a good idea, by analogy with "Manifest Destiny," for example. logologist 10:18, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

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