Contents

1 unsorted 2 "Persecution by Scientists" 3 Kosovo 4 Early persecutions in Non-Biblical Sources 1 NPOV Disputes= 1.1 Soviet Persecution 1.2 Persecution of Christians by Christians

unsorted

I have added material about the persecution of Christians by Jews, and I've noticed that this subject ties in with that of Christian antisemitism, but I'm having trouble thinking of how to word the link. One question is to what extent was the persecution of Christians by Jews exagerrated to justify Christian antisemitism? Many of the passages people have attacked in the NT as being antisemtic recount persecution of Christians by Jews. Also, the ancient accounts of persecution of Christians by Jews obviously laid the groundwork in some ways for the blood libel -- in fact people such as Julian of Norwich and Anderl von Rinn, supposed medieveal victims of Jews, were celebrated as Christian martyrs, in the same way as Stephen, Peter and Paul.

Also, I think for balance, we should include some sort of link or section (or maybe even a whole new article) on persecution of others by Christians, and persecution by Christians of each other. We could link in there such things as the persecution of Greek philosophers by Christian Roman Emperors, expulsion and forced conversion of Jews and Muslims from Spain, the Crusades, the persecution of the Albigensians and Waldenses, and the wars of religion around and after the Reformation... -- SJK

We should also define what is meant by "persecution". There a number of different forms, and different levels of severity. --Wesley

In the last century Christians have been enslaved in the Sudan, and murdered by the dozens in many nations. However, such persecution seems to be socially acceptable, since no one speaks out against it, and the media hardly touches it. But if one Church is closed in Israel for security reasons, this gets ten times the media coverage of the mass murders of Christians in south-east Asian nations. RK

I agree, and that's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about. If this is going to be done objectively, we have to include context, and some kind of sense of proportion. If possible, it would be helpful distinguish between isolated incidents and examples of broad types of activity; we don't want to list every single incident of persecution in all places at all times, any more than we would want to do that for anti-semitism or other sorts of behaviour. At the same time, by listing specific examples, we don't want to leave the reader with the impression that they are only isolated incidents IF they are not. --Wesley

The "Medieval Jewish persecution" section right now is an anti-semitic travesty. What it actually talks about is persecution by various mideastern governments, such as that of Iran. Now, if it pleased the resident Christian scholar to accuse Jews of fomenting that, we can mention this, but this does not change the fact that it was Persian government that did it. After all, there probably were many factions behind such decisions, Jews amongst them. The suggestion that we include Christian persecution of others in this article seems inappropriate. There are other proper places for that, and we can link there from this page. I mean, do we include a discussion of alleged Israeli war crimes in description of the Holocaust? Watcher 10:24, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes and no. The section seems to have expanded a lot since I last saw it, with the addition of the suspiciously propagandistic Iran stuff and the like: but several of the cases cited were clearly done by Jews (in Yemen and Ethiopia's cases, in fact, by Jewish governments), appear to have been motivated by sectarian reasons, and do belong there. - Mustafaa 17:50, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

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In the Roman section, how about information on throwing Christians to the lions (in the coliseum) - did that happen?

Yes, it did. I think that's how Polycarp died in the second century. The story is recorded in Martyrdom of Polycarp, in which the story of his martyrdom is help up as an example for all to follow; for instance, he fed a meal to the Roman soldiers who came to arrest him. Burning Christians was also common, especially under Nero. --Wesley

True, but let's make sure we explain why the Romans felt that the persecution was valid -- Christianity was considered a threat to Rome because the refusal to honor (not believe in) the Roman gods could bring the wrath of the gods down upon Rome. Also, Christians were protected as Jews until the two groups made it clear that they were not the same. Finally, there needs to be reference to Pliny's letters to Trajan and his responses, which indicate a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. JHK

Good points. In fact, I think the Romans accused the Christians of being atheists because they didn't believe in the Roman gods. There was also at least one case, I think in Ephesus, recorded in which the statue makers or silversmiths saw Christianity as an economic threat, and therefore tried to get the authorities to arrest the leading Christians on trumped up charges. --Wesley

Please, please, move the external links to the end of the article. Wikipedia is not a web directory, nor is it an attempt to organize other content (though one must admit that would be a worthy project, it's not our project). --LMS

Yes. I believe the organize-other-content project is http://www.dmoz.org. Sort of like a yahoo directory of topics and subtopics, but definitely a community project. I don't read wikipedia to find links to other sites, I read wikipedia to see what others have written and contributed to this project. --Wesley

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In the article,

for Christian missionaries to use synagogue pulpits to preach the claim that he would soon return, leading the armies of Heaven, to establish his kingdom, would have made the Jewish community vulnerable to accusations of treason, and thus to Roman punishment. Jewish leaders would have to supress any apparent insurrection, or risk Roman wrath.

seems unlikely since Jews were already known to the Romans as suicidal nutballs whose terrorist activities were extremely annoying. -- Ark

It is now time for Wikipedia owners to officialy ban "ARK". He is constantly vandalizing Wikipedia with anti-Semitic hatespeech. End it now.

RK, I agree the above line is insensitive, but from what little I know about the history of the area at the time it does crudely summarise a reasonably-widely held view about the Roman perception of the Jews at the time.

The issue is not what was the general perception Romans had of Jews at the time (I would be quite proud if the Jews enjoyed a general reputation for reisting colonial occupation; would that everyone, Jews today included, always oppose colonial occupation). The issue is the possible commission of specific crimes. Some 1st century CE Jews were quite willing to break Roman law and if necessary face the consequences, but with a few notable exceptions Jewish leaders tried to make the best of things -- and it is these leaders who would punish rebels. I take seriously your claim that there is a widely held view, Robert -- do you think the article could be clearer?

I'm struggling, however, to see it as anti-Semitic hate speech,

Robert, is it that much of a struggle to see someone classifying an entire people as "suicidal nutballs" and "extremely annoying" as hate-speech? Slrubenstein

and AFAICT he has only contributed once or twice to areas relating to Judaism, which is hardly time to establish a pattern. Ark, please be careful how you express things, particularly on topics like this where, as you've just seen, things get passionate very quickly. --Robert Merkel

Actually, RK is referring to a couple of long and vicious arguments we've had about Israel and anti-Semitism. More than enough to form an opinion. (Whether it's a rational, justified or even sane opinion is a different matter entirely.)

I'm more concerned with possibly having made a mistake. Now that I think about it, IIRC, the articles I read said it's the Brits who thought the Jews were lunatics and couldn't wash their hands of the Middle East fast enough. But I also read that the Jews were as masochistic two millenia ago as the early Christians, so it looks like I lucked out anyways. :) -- Ark

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I removed the following text as unattributed speculation:

Some have speculated that the New Testament account may have been purposely distorted by its authors to curry favour with Rome by switching primary responsibility for Jesus' execution from the Roman authorities to the Jews.

The "Some" who have "speculated" needs to be identified if it is anyone besides the person who typed in the text. It is also somewhat off-topic, and might possibly belong in the Christian anti-semitism article instead. Wesley

I think the text should be restored - but as you point out, it doesn't really belong here. In my reading I have seen that this claim is a fairly mainstream view among a number of historians and/or Bible scholars, both gentile and Jewish. I am not saying that it is necessarilly the majority view; just a common one that is widely accepted as reasonable. I don't have a ready citation at hand, but I will keep my out for citations on this topic. It also is the view that I happen to find extremely likely. There is no more reasonable way to explain how the Roman persecution of Jews (including the crucifixtion of thousands of them), somehow got rewritten as a pro-Roman, render unto-Caesar what is Caesar's, non-Jewish (and sometimes anti-Jewish) book. (It makes sense considering the time and place that it was written.) Perhaps we should have a discussion of this idea in Christian anti-Semitism article, as you suggest. RK

The historian Paula Fredriksen is one example of someone who deals with these questions, although I do not know if she has proposed this specific claim. By the way, it is not that the "NT account was purposely distorted," it was that more that the "NT account" itself was produced by people living under specific political conditions, with specific agendas, which colored their memories or their own interpretations of Jesus' career and fate. This coloring is probably something that happens in all history, Slrubenstein

One of the early baptismal forms, which became known as the Apostles creed, says that "suffered under Pontius Pilate" is an article of faith. I suspect that this can be shown to have been in use in some form even under the Caesars. So, if the New Testament was trying to shift preponderant blame to the Jews, to avoid offending Caesar, the official interpretation of the New Testament doesn't seem to show that they got the message. It was Pilate who attempted to shift his blame; without credibility, in the Christian view. Mkmcconn

Wesley writes that "intolerance, exclusivity and schism are not the same as persecution".

I disagree. In fact, these terms are a very good definition of persecution. I think you are reading "persecution" as "physically assaulting", but that is not what is stated or intended. Assault is only the last type of persecution. Many other forms of persecution exist! Even so, Christian intolerance towards other Christians, exclusivity and schism often do lead to bloodshed, assaults and all out wars. To mention just the most famous example, a large part of the terrorism in Ireland is part of religious conflict between Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians. The nation of England also has a long history of warfare between one Christian group and another, and the violence was long preceded by intolerance, exclusivity and schism. RK

Conflicts within mainline Protestant denominations (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_maco.htm) Forces of Schism within Christianity (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_di.htm)

So must one be pluralistic to avoid being a 'persecutor'? Is merely separating from another group the same as persecuting that group? That seems far too broad. Wesley

I think we are getting into a pretty abstract question here, but perhaps that is unavoidable. I don't want to speak for RK but I think you are reading his claims too brodly, Wesley. I think RK is simply pointing out that there are other forms of persecution besides direct physical assault (whipping, stoning, imprisonment, torture, etc). I agree and frankly would be surprised if you did not. I think you are asking the question from the other direction -- is "x" always (necessarily) persecution, and I am sure that both you and RK would agree, no. For example, just because I punch or arrest someone who is Jewish doesn't mean I am persecuting Jews; he may have insulted me personally or he may have robbed a store, in both cases the assault has nothing to do with his being Jewish (ditto, Christians). So I think "persecution" involves some kind of attack against a group identity or belief. I do not see that it matters whether the attack is material or discursive, physical or symbolic. I do think you are raising a more profound question, what is the difference between disagreeing and attacking? Can I disagree with Christianity/Christians without "persecuting" them? I think so, and I think we can establish criteria for telling the difference. And, pace RK, I do suspect that pluralist assumptions are somehow involved... Slrubenstein

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This comes from Talk:Christian persecution

-A friendly amendment - this should branch off of (but not be a subpage - horrors, no!) and refer back to another entry on 'religious persecution'. I think it should probably be a headered section on religious persecution. I'm the last person to suggest that the persecution of Christians doesn't happen (I read a lot of memoirs and history from the Soviet era), but we've got to set it up so everyone can get in their persecutions. --MichaelTinkler, who suggests something like:

20th century religious persecution:

• persecution of Christians
  • by other Christians
  • in Islamic countries
    • in Indonesia
  • under Communist regimes
  • in Israel

• persecution of Islamic believers
  • by other Muslims
    • Shiite persecuted by Sunni
    • Sunni persecuted by Shia
  • in India
  • under Communist regimes

• persecution of the practice of Judaism (insofar as that can be distinguished from ethnicity?)

• persecution of Animists
  • by Christians
  • by Muslims
  • under Communist regimes

• persecution of ...now fill in all the blanks...

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Augustine's writings have always been viewed with skepticism by Eastern Christianity, and Tertullian ended his life formally denounced as a heretic, an adherent of Montanism.

These arguments are special pleading. Augustine and Tertullian are highly regarded. What they say on this issue has not been condemned by the church in any segment of it, as far as I know. I removed them.

It seems a shame for Augustine to suffer disrepute just because a boneheaded "scholar" misunderstands his quote. Tertullian wasn't _the_ leader of the church at any time, and it's silly that he would be credited with inciting a mass-suicide movement among the Christians. Mkmcconn

It's not clear to me what exactly you mean by "special pleading"; is that a specific logical fallacy? Augustine and Tertullian are highly regarded only in the West, and I believe the West agrees with Tertullian's ultimate excommunication as a Montanist, while still drawing from his earlier writings. We don't have any context or reference for these quotes; the external web site points to a dead tree book which presumably has footnotes citing the sources. I agree that their writings are probably being misused and misrepresented here. Wesley

Followup: ok, think I found out what special pleading is. I really don't think those arguments are a special pleading when used by Eastern Christianity, because those two haven't been particularly influential in the East. On the other hand, I don't really care whether they get restored or remain deleted, either. Wesley

I want to extend this discussion at length, because I think it's important to the topic. Not all Christian suffering at the hands of others is admired by Christians, nor should it be. The quotation in the entry is an astounding example of complete ignorance of its subject. Such a blind and prejudicial interpretation of the crucifixion, John the Evangelist, Augustine of Hippo and Tertullian, should not be answered by discrediting Augustine, or Tertullian on this one point, any more than it can be answered by discrediting John. The answer is to show its entire incompatibility with the attitudes it pretends to explain.

Its not worth challenging that some writings and reports which came out of the persecutions show a morbid preoccupation with dying. They do. And at times this fixation became perverse, or was misunderstood by those outside of the faith, which ellicited corrections by confessors and teachers (some of whom were later martyred). Suffering and death are meaningless in themselves; but they are transformed by the pursuit of the goal of faith, which is life.

That's all Augustine is doing in the place referred to (I'm assuming that the writer wants to refer to City of God, where Augustine argues this way). Death for death's sake reduces life to vanity, but in contrast martyrdom shows how death is swallowed up by life, the crown of a life lived for Life's sake. Romans unsympathetically thought that Christians desired death, and promoted a culture of death, but Augustine shows that martyrdom is the opposite, and is the epitome of the Christian warfare against death, and the triumph of life, through the uncompromising full embrace of Truth even in the face of death. This is the reason Christians regarded the janissaries with such singular horror: the idea of perverting death (instead of life) into the central principle of salvation, or that Christians would be deceived by promises of incorruptible rewards into voluntary enslavement in the service of death itself, is despicable to Christians, and always has been except in those places or periods which Christians regard with the greatest self-reproach.

Similarly, Tertullian was saying that it is the obligation of every Christian to confess Christ, and rather than obstacles to confession, suffering and death for Christ's name are the epitome of the confession of faith. All Christians must be martyrs. For example, Cyprian wrote that martyrdom is an angelic baptism, to be desired because it not only takes away sin but also the further possibility of sin. The "scholar" makes clear how he would interpret all statements like that - in a sense that is exactly antithetical to the Christian faith professed by the author of the statement. But, in their Christian sense, the remarks are not in the slightest contrary to Eastern Christianity, or peculiar to the West: even if the authors of them are not equally admired in the East and the West. Mkmcconn 18:43 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

Well put. I have to agree. Trying to discredit Augustine and Tertullian on this point was a knee-jerk reaction on my part, and not at all well thought out. Please leave out the text in question. Perhaps some of your above statements could be included in an article on martyrdom? I don't think it exactly fits here, but seems well worth keeping in an appropriate topic. Wesley 19:11 Oct 17, 2002 (UTC)

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"However, Pilate's wife, through occult practices, had warned Pilate that he should not have any dealing with Jesus..." -- we need some documentation on this. The locus appears to be Matthew 27, but it is much sketchier than this.

I think this is a good point. It does not say "through occult practices". It simply says, "in a dream". Mkmcconn

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From what i read, the first paragraphs of this article (jews and romans) are largely based on the New Testament. I don't believe that is a NPOV source. I think the article can be improved by the adition of historical accounts. Like the descriptions of Nero persecutions after the Rome fire, for instance. Muriel Gottrop 14:54, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

That would be from Tacitus, right? There's also Pliny the Younger's correspondence with Trajan, and bits on persecutions by Marcus Aurelius, Maximinus Thrax, Decius, and Diocletian, just off the top of my head. Mightn't the subject be worthy of a separate article? It's a complex topic, and what's there right now doesn't really do it justice: persecution of Christians was (at first) only a small part of the Romans' persecution of other "detestable superstitions" (as Tacitus called Christianity), including Manicheaism and some of the weirder Hellenistic mystery cults. --MIRV 21:49, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I removed this new paragraph: It should be noted that almost none of these events involve the native "Malankara" Orthodox Christians of India but are instead directed at Roman Catholics or Protestants. Thus, this persecution could very well be as much a matter of political opposition to what is perceived as extension of old colonialist attitudes from foreigners as it is a matter of religion.

This is a hateful and unjustifibale excuse to justify attacks on, and murder of, Christians. People in a mob screaming to hurt or kill Christians are not voicing political differences about colonialism versus nationalism; they are simply hurting or killing Christians. (The same is true when people unjustifiably try to justify suicide bombings against Jews.) There is a big difference between voicing political differences, and murdering people of other religions. RK 21:31, Dec 9, 2003 (UTC)

The same user reinserted an edited version of the same text. I think it is perfectly fair to note that most attacks have been against Catholics and Protestants, as that seems to be the case, but speculation about the motives for these attacks should not be included without hard evidence. --MIRV 22:33, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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If no one can supply substantial and UNBIASED evidence that the "Discrimination in the West Bank & Gaza / Palestinian territory"-section is not WIDELY blown out of proportions (note the biased sources) within a reasonable time period, say a few days, I'm going to remove it in its entirety as pro-Israeli propaganda. The existence of Palestian Christians has always disturbed Zionists for several obvious reasons, so to put this down as a propaganda attempt makes sense. Note that I'm not saying that there aren't any real incidents, but this section is called Persecution of Christians, so their scale and severeness must differ substantially from that of other multi-cultural societies which are not mentioned here, before a case can be made for their inclusion in this article. -- 213.73.231.245 01:45, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure what unbiased evidence could exist. The press in that region is controlled either by Israel or by Muslims; is there a Christian press, and if there were wouldn't it also be considered biased? Where would you expect to find an "unbiased" source that would also consider such actions newsworthy? I can tell you that I've read in Orthodox Christian news accounts of Orthodox being kicked out of monastaries in the region, fwiw. Such action is consistent with how Christians are treated by Muslims in Egypt, where they are regularly imprisoned simply for practicing Christianity. What other "multi-cultural societies" in the region are suffering without mention? Regardless, if Christians are being targeted primarily because they are Christians or because they are trying to practice Christianity, then the accounts should remain. Wesley 05:23, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

There are massive amounts of evidence. You just read it...and deleted the evidence. How disgustingly dishonest. Why are you hiding the persecution of Chrisitans by the Palestinians? RK 02:08, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

That section is indeed very problematic. We must remember that the Israeli government has extremely clear reasons for wanting to talk up the problems of Palestinian Christians. The main reason, in a nutshell: the USA is predominantly Christian. What better way to promote anti-Palestinian sentiment in America than to teach Americans that the Palestinians persecute Christians? All claims about this that come via the Israeli government (directly or indirectly) need independent verification.
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That said, some of the events described probably did occur. However, a second problem with the section is that it makes no distinction between local and official events. Violent behaviour from a few neighborhood hotheads does not qualify as "persecution" unless it is systemic and has official sanction. There is no evidence for this that I have seen. Yes, many in the Muslim population don't care for Christians and especially not for proselytizing Christians. Same in Israel.
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A third omission is the fact that Christian organizations have many times denied the claims that they are persecuted (while not claiming to be free of problems). Examples on the internet include http://www.eohsjatlantic.com/Nazareth.htm and http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/9266/pauhrv.htm ("The LATIN PATRIARCHATE OF JERUSALEM assured me that all is untrue and all is lies"). A denial by the Palestinian Human Rights Organization is here (http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=6743). Also see http://www.al-bushra.org/holyland/0persecution.htm for a list of related articles.
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Another problem, though not conclusive on its own, is that Christians have always played a major role in the Palestinian nationalist organizations. The PLC has 6 Christians (last I heard), and there are many senior Christians in the PLO. Arafat's wife is Christian. Of course there aren't too many Christians in the Islamic organizations like Hamas. --Zero 12:02, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I am ashamed that you would minimize the persecution of Christians as being the acts of just a gew hotheads. That is absolutely false, and without any justification whatsoever. Your anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian POV is now so extreme that you whitewash even the persecution of Chrisitians to push your ideology. For shame. I am going to restore much of the censored material. RK 02:08, Dec 16, 2003 (UTC)

That's just typical of you. You don't bring up any evidence, just the same old libel and rhetoric. -- 213.73.231.245 02:54, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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I think the last part of the article (actually from "Islamic Persecutions of Christians" till the very end) is not encyclopedic. Even though the facts may be (or are) true, they ought to be summarized. Moreover, even though the facts be real, I guess the term "persecution" has to be used with utmost care lest we (the wikipedia) should be making unfair generalizations. Remember that the WP is not a manual of History (least of Contemporary History).

I do not know who inserted those lists of facts, but I would delete them as they are from the page, because WP is not either a collection of events.

Moreover, for the sake of honesty and peace, I would use expressions like "in the name of Judaism" "in the name of Islam" etc... instead of "Islamic persecutions"... Sounds more fair to me. Obviously the above does not refer to the Romans or "disappeared cultures", which may not get hurt. You can check my contributions elsewhere to check my POV here (which is not "persecution denial" or "anti-christian"). Hope this helps. Pfortuny 16:42, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree that it makes sense to summarize, rather than necessarily spell out every incident. But since when does Wikipedia not cover history?? I also don't quite understand the distinction being made between "Islamic persecutions" and "persecutions in the name of Islam"; they seem to mean the same thing, with the latter being wordier. What's the intent here? Wesley 17:04, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

No, I did not mean WP does not cover history, but it takes quite a while (years) to qualify something as a true persecution of a people/belief/religion/culture...

On the other hand, "in the name of something" means that people "use something as an excuse to..." while "Christian persecutions" (to give another example) can be understood as something sanctioned by Christianity. "Islamic persecutions" could be understood as "persecutions promoted by Islam". Getting absolutely extremist and simply as an example, would you say Bin Laden's acts are "Islamic terrorism" or "terrorism in the name of Islame"? For me it is quite different.

The case, simply stated is trying not to hurt other people's feelings if (and only if) a different expression can be used. Of course, I may be being too sensitive... I only wanted to state my feelings at first sight of the article, just that. Pfortuny 18:06, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Pfortuny writes "Moreover, for the sake of honesty and peace, I would use expressions like "in the name of Judaism" "in the name of Islam" etc... instead of "Islamic persecutions"... Sounds more fair to me."

This is not fair; this grossly misleading. You are using the infamous and discredited No true Scotsman argument to wash away or downplay persecutions committed by religious followers. RK

Not fair why? No, I am not using that argument and I am not trying to wash away or downplay anything. I am simply trying to be kind to other people and honest. Things which fit into a newspaper headline (for clarity and sales) do not fit into an encyclopedia (for precision). But I am not going to argue with you on this. I did not want to hurt anyone's feelings (and keep in mind that I am grossly hurt by people killing Christians). Go on yourselves. Pfortuny 08:50, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree with RK. We should label people according to what they labeled themselves, and based on whether that label was questioned at the time or not.—Eloquence 08:54, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

I have moved these two paragraphs from the article to here for discussion.

== Persecution by Scientists ==

Christians and in particular Christianity has also been persecuted with the arrival of Western Science. Many prominent men has persecuted it, and in return being persecuted by. One prominent example or artifacts are the Inquisition, which the most gruesome torture is to be seen, and Gallieo, who wast threatened to withdraw his theory that earth is not the center of the world or face torture, and also Bertrand Russell, who has wrote "Why I am not a Christian" and has been put in jail several times in his life.

Um, I am not aware of any time or period in history where scientists have persecuted the Chrisitan community! Even more odd, this paragraph gives no examples. It seems incoherent. RK

== Persecution by Christians ==

Among the Christian history, many national wars have started because of different sects of Christianity, resulting thousands of deaths. Most notable example is Catholics vs Protestants in Europe.

These two sentences are too vague to have any meaning. RK 21:53, Jul 4, 2004 (UTC)

You can't simply delete all these sources, quotes and websites, call them a "pack of lies", and claim that we must look at less biased sources. On what grounds are you accusing every one of these deleted sources of being lies and fabrications? It is well known that Christians are persecuted in Egypt and Malaysia. Please back up your claims, or the material will have to be restored. RK 22:41, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

Did you even check the "sources" I deleted? Does this (http://www.persecution.org/) site (the only source given for all the persecution allegations) look like an objective source to you (let alone one of a quality worthy of being quoted here?) Conversely, does this site (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/), which I linked to a copy of at atheism.about.com, strike you as reasonably reliable? Well, the latter confirms that the only "severe punishment" imposed by the government on converts to Christianity in Egypt is a refusal to recognize this as changing their legal status, and reveals no evidence at all of persecution of Christians in Malaysia. As to the interview, claiming that people not of your own religion are infidels is scarcely persecution, or all countries adhering to major Abrahamic faiths would be hotbeds of persecution. - Mustafaa 22:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Iam not sure what Mustafaa means by this last sentence. Does "Abrahamic faith" mean Judaism, Christianity, and Islam? Judaism does not consider people of other religions "infidels" -- does Islam or Christianity? And as for the Jewish State -- well, you can be against the treatment of Arabs as second class citizens, and the occupation of Palestine, but the state does not consider Christians or Muslims or people of other faiths infidels. Slrubenstein

Perhaps I should have phrased myself more precisely - it's not the state that's being quoted as calling people "infidels", it's "an Egyptian government funded magazine" which "published an interview with three Islamic clerics" who called Christians infidels. That position is actually Islamically incorrect, as far as I'm aware - the People of the Book are specifically described as not being infidels in the Quran. However, the English term "infidel" is of course Christian in origin (specifically Catholic, I believe; it's from the Latin meaning "unfaithful") and is indeed reserved by some (though not all) Christians for describing those of other faiths. - Mustafaa 23:59, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

By not recording the change in religion of converts to Christianity, Egypt effectively prevents formerly Muslim converts to Christianity from marrying those who were born and raised in Christian communities. It also does not recognize the children of converts to Christianity as Christians, because according to the government's records, their parents are Muslims not Christians. This then affects the children's education and their own marriage choices down the road. In addition to this official action, there are many accounts of Christians being arrested and imprisoned in Egypt because they converted from Islam; it is a persistent problem in practice, though it may not be officially endorsed by Egypt's penal code. Wesley 16:48, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The non-recognition, as you point out, certainly constitutes government harassment, given its effects. But can you supply some documentation of "Christians being arrested and imprisoned"? Given how many parties have a stake in spreading rumors about the Middle East, I tend to be extra-sceptical about such claims unless they're from a particularly reliable source... - Mustafaa 17:42, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, http://www.copts.net/index.asp has many recent stories, but perhaps you would find it unreliable since the site is run by Christians, particularly Christians sympathetic to the Christian Copts in Egypt. CNN has this old story, which mentions both a specific incident and the general climate: http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/02/24/coptic.church/. And here's a BBC story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/589977.stm. This is of course just a small sample. If you find all these sources unreliable, please clarify your criteria. (At some point I'll try to get around to documenting some of the ongoing persecution in Nepal, if only to show this isn't just about "spreading rumors about the Middle East". Wesley 05:49, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

One more link: http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/islam/countries/bl_EgyptCoptic.htm. This one looks at the history of the region, including President Saddat sending (Coptic) Pope Shenouda III into exile in 1981, the attempt of the Muslim government to influence the selection of a successor, and President Mubarak's restoration of Pope Shenouda III, having failed to effectively replace him. Wesley 06:00, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thank you. These links are much more helpful than the ones previously in the article. I'll see if I can put together something on the topic, if you don't beat me to it. - Mustafaa 06:03, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad you find them helpful. The US State Department report (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2003/24448.htm) actually describes several forms of discrimination and persecution, including: huge bureaucratic hurdles before a new church can be built or an old one repaired, including Presidential approval; detention (arrest and brief imprisonment) of converts to Christianity; Christian missionaries allowed only if they do not proselytize; failure of the government to prosecute anyone for the murder of Christians in some cases, including the 2000 incident mentioned in the earlier BBC link; numerous unproven allegations of Christian girls being kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam and marry Muslim men. Of this list, it is (according to the State Dept.) known that some Christian girls who marry Muslim men are under the legal age minimum of 16, and that this minimum age is often not enforced in such instances. Apparently, a number of Egypt's laws in these areas are based on Sharia and/or the Ottoman Empire's laws. Wesley 06:21, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

---

"F. Conybeare's translation of Monk Stratego's account of the Persian Empire's sack of Jerusalem (614) claims the Jews took the opportunity to persecute the Christians." now that User:Amys has suppressed the entire quote, this looks like an unsupported assertion. Even the author's name is untraceable. Was that the intention? Wetman 03:02, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've restored a reference to the text, which is available on the Web and needn't be quoted in toto with a warning that this fiction is a libel. Wetman 03:26, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You can't just add an editorial like that without at least attributing it to someone. Who says it is a myth? What alternative historical evidence is this commentator relying on? --Zero 07:18, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Apparently User:Zero didn't bother to read the "editorial" text in question, which was linked right there. Even someone with a mediocre education can detect that this is a fiction: it scarcely needs an editorial. Extremely poor behavior. Read the reference and have the grace to restore it please. Wetman 07:27, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I think a fairer summary would be the one given at the link itself:

"Byzantine law granted toleration to Jews [Theodosian Code 16.8.21], although there were occasional attempts at forced conversion [Leo VI, Novels], but there was a general prejudice against Jews. The following account of the fall of Jerusalem to the Persians in 614, by the monk Antiochus Stategos, who live din the monastary (lavra) of St. Sabas inJerusalem, shows this attitude. It provides a Byzantine version of the later blood libel. It also, of course, may reflect Jewish resistance to Byzantine restrictions an oppression." [1] (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/strategos1.html)

It is obviously gross propaganda, of course, but it is not at all obvious that it is pure fiction; like much propaganda, it could equally be an exaggerated account of something that did happen. Suffice it to say that this monk's reliability is low. - Mustafaa 08:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wetman's version is quite unacceptable because it states as facts several things which are obviously opinions. They should be stated as someone's opinions, if at all. I made my comment without following the link because it is obvious from the text (but I knew of Stratego's account already). As for Stratego, he wrote in a style completely normal for medieval chronologers, who were more interested in telling a good story to their audience than in recording history as a modern chronologer would do. This means he made no effort to disguise prejudices that he thought his audience would share (in this case, his disgust for the Jews) and one can be sure that he told his story in a way that cast the Jews in a worse light than they deserved. However, there is no special reason in this passage to doubt what he records of the Jews more than we should doubt what he records of the Persians. The bottom line in Strategos' account is that the Jews joined with the invading Persians in persecuting the Christians. This may be true or it may be false. It is certainly not obviously false. Without an independent account to compare with Stratego, historical certainly is not available here. That's true about a large part of medieval history. --Zero 10:34, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Here is a reference likely to be interesting, but my library's holdings start with the following volume. E.Horowitz, Modern historians and the Persian conquest of Jerusalem in 614, Jewish Social Studies, Vol 4, No 2. --Zero 10:57, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Persecution by Scientists"

"Christians and in particular Christianity have also been persecuted with the arrival of Western Science. Many prominent men have persecuted it, and in return were persecuted by them/it. One prominent example or artifacts are the Inquisition, which the most gruesome torture is to be seen, and Gallieo, who was threatened to withdraw his theory that earth is not the center of the universe or face excommunication, and also Bertrand Russell, who has wrote "Why I am not a Christian" and has been put in jail several times in his life, mainly for reasons unrelated to Christianity." How is the practice of science related to this material, already covered elsewhere? Wetman 20:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Kosovo

"In March 2004, many largely Muslim Albanians attacked over thirty Christian churches and monasteries in Kosovo, killed at least thirty Christians, and burned hundreds of Christians' homes, over the course of about five days. One NATO commander said it verged on ethnic cleansing of Serbians. Others compared it to Kristallnacht. Over 150 Christian churches and monasteries were destroyed in the five years prior to this incident. See Unrest in Kosovo, and http://www.kosovo.net." I dispute that this is persecution of Christian, as Christians, at all: rather, it's old-fashioned ethnic violence by a group (Albanians) with a Muslim majority and large Catholic minority against another group (Serbs) which is characterized by adherence to Orthodoxy. - Mustafaa 20:40, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

When the violence is characterized by the systematic destruction of Christian churches and monasteries and the descration of Christian cemeteries, it certainly appears to be a religious conflict. Certainly ethnic tensions play a part, but the attacks particularly on the churches seem in many ways to be a continuation of the old Muslim iconoclasm. Further evidence that it is understood to be a religious conflict is seen in that when Serbs in Belgrade chose to retaliate, they did so by attacking mosques in Belgrade, not an Albanian museum or embassy. (The attack on the mosques was condemned by the Serbian Orthodox patriarch, in the same statement in which he condemned the attacks on the churches and monasteries; if any Albanian cleric or official has condemned the March attacks on Serb churches, I am unaware of it but would be glad to learn of it.) Wesley 17:08, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Fair argument, but I haven't heard of any attacks on Catholic churches or monasteries in Kosovo, and while I can't find the statistics for Kosovo itself, I know a large proportion of Albanians are Catholics. To my mind, that aspect of it suggests an ethnic rather than religious conflict. - Mustafaa 19:45, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

This quote, for instance, suggests a Serb-specific attack, though the article tries to minimize that angle:

Fr. Sava specifies that an authentic smear campaign has been unleashed against the Serbian Church: “The schools teach the theory that we did not build most of the Orthodox holy places in Kosovo, but that Roman Catholic Church did, and that they do not belong to us.”

There are approximately 65,000 Catholics in Kosovo. “We have excellent relations with the Muslims, and the government treats us well,” a spokesman for the apostolic administration of Prizen told the Norwegian news agency for religious liberty “Forum 18.”[2] (http://213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,41995,00.html) - Mustafaa 19:54, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

According to the numbers in that article, there are 65,000 Catholics, 130,000 remaining Orthodox Christians, and another 250,000 Orthodox Christians who only recently fled and have been unable to return. I suspect that there simply aren't that many specifically Catholic churches and monasteries to attack; perhaps the Catholics and Orthodox are arguing about proper possession of the same churches.

The same article revives a topic from our earlier discussion of Egypt: apparently former Muslims are being beaten in Kosovo simply because they converted to Christianity. Perhaps this should be added to the article as well? And isn't this more evidence of an active anti-Christian hostility rather than just an anti-Serb hostility? Wesley 03:06, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Persecution of converts I would accept as clearly belonging here, though I'd like to see more verification first. However, I'm not so sure about burning of Orthodox churches; the other aspect of this is that the Catholics are Albanian, while the Orthodox are conspicuously not. - Mustafaa 06:44, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The whole section on persecution in the Soviet Union needs severe editing. The promotion by the state of anti-Christian propaganda in schools does not constitute "persecution" any more than the teaching of religion in schools "persecutes" atheists or those of other faiths. Both arguably are a perversion of schools' duty to educate but should be discussed under "religious/anti-religous propaganda". The failure of the Orthodox Church to revive after the fall of Communism is attributed to successful persecution. This is just speculation. It COULD be due to successful propaganda - but decades of pro-Communist propaganda had little lasting effect after the fall of the USSR.

This section should discuss alleged cases of people being executed, exiled, imprisoned, thrown out of work, being socially ostracised, etc for their religious beliefs. Exile 11:05, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No response. Does anyone agree with me? disagree?

Exile 22:43, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Early persecutions in Non-Biblical Sources

I just updated the URL for the quote "Jesus, too, says John, really committed suicide, ...". However, this seems a very whacky source for several reasons:

• It does not specify which John said that, where and when.
• Given that the author uses "dicta" as if it were a singular, I doubt that the "alter present to feel pity" part is anything but gobbledygook.
• The author seems to have his own axe to grind. To see this in context, read their Preface (http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/eln00_preface.html).

NPOV Disputes=

Soviet Persecution

This is a rather broad statement, but the section on Russia today seems rather non-NPOV (it says that Russians today don't take their religion "seriously").

The article should aslo expain why Christianity was attacked. For example the Tsars controlled the Church and claimed God wanted them to be slaves. 67.41.186.237 06:49, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Persecution of Christians by Christians

The reader of Wikipedia should note that this subsection has been deleted from the article, as it did not suit local POV. --Wetman 04:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Really?! When was that? Was there any talk about it? This seems absurd. How can Wikipedia turn a blind eye to the undeniable persecution of Christians by Christians such as the systematic persecution of Huguenots which led to the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre? Sebastian 06:37, 2005 Mar 19 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:08, 10 Jan 2005 by User:Mihnea Tudoreanu, who suppressed a good deal of text here and boldly and somewhat disingenuously remarked in Edit Summary "there is a great deal of POV in this article; I've begun some editing, but more will have to be done." One might ask why this individual's spin should prevail. Apparently the point to this article is that Christians are innocent victims, and the subsection didn't fit that particular PoV. --Wetman 00:23, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Needs to be re-added. 67.41.186.237 06:49, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)