Talk:New Imperialism/archive 16

Lir's "general overview" is simply unacceptable. You would not find such crude economic determinism in the Great Soviet Encyclopedia:

During this period, the world powers sought market and territorial expansion; merchants, national leaders, and other economic elites, desired new export markets -- they urged their governments to secure "captive markets", to end "free trade", and adopt policies of "protectionism". This impulse was primarily motivated by economic trends -- as well as increasing industrialist competition over resources, income, and prestige.

I have restored the longstanding introduction. Also, the case against the non-standard "list of important figures" has been stated on many pages, including Lir's own talk page; I'll provide the links or restate it if anyone requests. The list can provide the basis for a helpful supplement to the article series someday, but it's not ready to be placed toward the bottom of the article just yet unless it is coherently organized and put together. 172 16:44, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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I'm sorry; but, don't you think your task here (as a volunteer Wikipedian) is to improve my edits (such as making the list "coherently organized") -- rather than deleting them? I find your reversion, on the grounds that my edits were not "perfect" -- to be extremely inappropriate.

As for the above disputed paragraph (which, ironically enough, was mostly written by you) -- the only way to discuss it is point by point:

During this period, the world powers sought market and territorial expansion; merchants, national leaders, and other economic elites, desired new export markets -- they urged their governments to secure "captive markets", to end "free trade", and adopt policies of "protectionism". This impulse was primarily motivated by economic trends -- as well as increasing industrialist competition over resources, income, and prestige.

• During this period, the world powers sought market and territorial expansion -- true or false?
• [During this period], merchants, national leaders, and other economic elites, desired new export markets -- true or false?
• [During this period, merchants, national leaders, and other economic elites], urged their governments to secure "captive markets", to end "free trade", and adopt policies of "protectionism" -- true or false?
• [The above noted urging] was primarily motivated by economic trends -- as well as increasing industrialist competition over resources, income, and prestige. -- true or false?
  • In short, since you appear to believe that the "New Imperialism" had nothing to do with economics (at least your personal attack: "You would not find such crude economic determinism in the Great Soviet Encyclopedia" indicates so); do tell what you believe it was about...

Furthermore, before reverting all of my paragraphs -- I do think you should take the time to address each point of each paragraph. You have only criticized one paragraph here (arguing that something other than economics should be listed as a primary factor of the period) -- what of the other paragraphs?

Origins of the name "imperialism" is the only other section removed. This topic is already dealt with in the intro section, which is not divided up into many subsections in accordance with the standard style. 172 23:41, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Lirath Q. Pynnor

There is no reason to have multiple paragraphs about the history of the word imperialism (which has its own article), within the introduction to this article. Lirath Q. Pynnor

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I appear to believe that the "New Imperialism" had nothing to do with economics? You cannot seriously believe this. You've obviously read the article and seen my contributions over the past 15 months. 172 23:39, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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• Well, let me repeat your personal attack, "You would not find such crude economic determinism in the Great Soviet Encyclopedia" -- now then...what exactly do you find so objectionable within: "During this period, the world powers sought market and territorial expansion..." Is this statement true or false?
  • Furthermore, you have still failed not only to discuss what specifically bothers you about the above-mentioned paragraph; but, you have also failed to mention what bothers you about the other paragraphs. Please do so. ***Lirath Q. Pynnor

That was not a "personal attack." I was criticizing the general overview, not attacking you. 172 04:21, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

BTW, how about settling this with a poll, asking users which version they prefer? 172 04:22, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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• Yes, it was a personal attack -- by stating, "You would not find such crude economic determinism in the Great Soviet Encyclopedia", you were implying that I was worse than those Russians whom you apparently dislike. Furthermore, the word "crude" is well...it's rude.
  • No, I was referring to the work. It's only a personal crusade in your head. I only care about the quality of the articles, not the editors. 172 04:53, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
    • If you refer to my work, by saying it is "crude" and implying that it is communist propaganda...then that is a personal attack. You have not actually addressed any specific aspect of the work; the only thing you have done, basically, is say "it sucks". That really isn't going to cut it. You have now made a second personal attack, by saying "It's only a personal crusade in your head." Lirath Q. Pynnor

• As for a poll, the wikipedia is not about polls -- I fully agree that you will have more "friends" than I, and you will attract a little cabal here which will happily vote in your favour. Even if I were to mobilize a counter-cabal, such as the Red Faction, you would be successful in arguing that their votes be thrown out. In the meantime, I wonder how long you can continue to skirt the issue and avoid talking about this subject...
  • Since you continue to ignore the paragraph which you blasted as Soviet propaganda; let me remind you once again, what the paragraph stated:

• During this period, the world powers sought market and territorial expansion -- true or false?
• [During this period], merchants, national leaders, and other economic elites, desired new export markets -- true or false?
• [During this period, merchants, national leaders, and other economic elites], urged their governments to secure "captive markets", to end "free trade", and adopt policies of "protectionism" -- true or false?
• [The above noted urging] was primarily motivated by...industrialist competition over resources, income, and prestige. -- true or false?

Lirath Q. Pynnor

wikipedia:no personal attacks

We need a wiki-policy pointing out that ad hominem's are not to be accepted in wikipedia:talk page's and edit summaries, and those who persist w them are to be blocked for 24hrs. Then people like lir would be allowed to explain their thoughts behind their edits, and wouldn't be dismissed w the usual abusive condescension and ad hominem objections. For the record I am not a communist, and I do not share lir's politics, (nor 172's). I am however ready to hear out respectful arguments made by either. Lir is not a banned user, and is not to be subjected to abuse. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 06:58, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)