Talk:Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

Talk:Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact/Archive 1

Where is the evidence for Soviet resistance before the pact was signed

There is a general theme made several times in the article that the Soviets had sought to undermine Germany for years, and signed the pact because Brittan and France and other powers would not act against Germany. It is also mentioned that the Soviets needed to sign the pact as a way to prepare against a German invasion. Is there any real evidence to support this? If not I would really like to take this Stalinist apology out. TDC 17:30, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Soviet Union and the Comintern supported the popular front strategy, which basically said "we'll ally and work together with anyone who wants to fight against fascism". Furthermore, the Spanish Civil War was in its later stages a proxy war between the Nazi-backed nationalists and the Soviet-backed republicans. In Germany itself, the pro-Soviet KPD fought bitterly (both politically in elections, and physically on the streets) against the Nazis before 1933. In 1933, the KPD became the very FIRST victims of Nazi terror (before they got around to the Jews). Finally, Hitler created the infamous Anti-Comintern Pact for the purpose of fighting communism in general and the Soviet Union in particular. The Anti-comintern pact later gave birth to the Axis.

Proof enough for ya? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 18:07, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Soviet apologecy and propaganda are not at all irrelevant, as it influenced the public opinion (and official propaganda) as far away as in France, Britain and the United States. However, the article might well be served by a more careful wording. --Johan Magnus 17:55, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Soviets did resist the nazis in Spain, they did offer complete support to the Czechs (the western powers actively kept them out of the 4 power discussion prior to Munich - the 4th country being Italy which gave diplomatic support to Germany), they even proposed joint action to save what was left of the Czechs when Hitler violated Munich, the Soviets proposed alliance over Poland (the UK & France but mainly the UK refused). On all these points the USSR opposed the nazis when the westrn powers can barely be described as neutral. On this point I would also like to see removal of the sentence "Furthermore, the Soviet Union pursued a policy of encouraging capitalist countries to fight each other, in order to stimulate World Revolution" & the paragraph further down about the Soviets not being interested in the status quo. The Soviet economy was growing so fast that the status quo was very much in their interest & they did not engage in adventurism either in Europe or against the Japanese or Turks. This might be arguable for the 20s. When Hitler came to power the Soviets very actively sought a Popular Front against him, including subordinating the revolutionary instincts of western communist parties to a joint alliance. Stalin can be attacked for cynically selling out communism in the interests of western friendship but not vice versa. The Hitler Stalin Pact only took place after the attempt to achieve such an alliance had repeatedly failed. Neil Craig

Hitler claimed that the Soviets had sought to undermine Germany for years, so it is not just a "Stalinist apology". The USSR did seek to undermine capitalism in Germany for years, which would be obvious to anyone who read the Comintern archives of relations between the VKP and KPD. And of course Britain and France didn't act against Germany - is that a Stalinist apology, because I hear right-wing hacks talking about how Chamberlain appeased Nazi Germany all the time. I don't think any of this is controversial. As far as signing to stave off invasion for a while (and to industrialize and prepare), what is your counter-argument to this, that Stalin was a naive, good-hearted rube who just fell off the turnip truck and trusted Hitler? Ruy Lopez 13:27, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I would have an easier time swallowing this had it not been for Stalin's willingess to help Germany fuel its war machine via trade and acting as an intermediate to circumvent the Allied blockade. This might be explained by Stalin's secret August 19, 1939 speech to the politburo. TDC 14:42, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

We should be careful, in light of subsequent events, to take Stalin's offer of "help" for the Czechs in 1938 at face value; the western allies' rejection of alliance with Stalin was due, at least in part, to their suspicions of his ulterior motives. --ProhibitOnions 12:33, 2005 May 20 (UTC)

Rm unsupported

Furthermore, the Soviet Union pursued a policy of encouraging capitalist countries to fight each other, in order to stimulate World Revolution.

Speculation. Facts, please. Mikkalai 18:15, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, more speculation: Stalin's "Secret speech" to Politbyro Aug 19, 1939. Classified document released after Soviet collapse and published by T.S. Bushuyeva:

"The question of war or peace has entered a critical phase for us. If we conclude a mutual assistance pact with France and Great Britain, Germany will back off from Poland and seek a modus vivendi with the Western powers. War would be avoided, but down the road events could become dangerous for the USSR. If we accept Germany's proposal and conclude a nonaggression pact with her, she will of course invade Poland, and the intervention of France and England in that war would be unavoidable. Western Europe would be subjected to serious upheavals and disorder. Under those conditions, we would have a great opportunity to stay out of the conflict, and we could plan the opportune time for us to enter the war."

"The experience of the last 20 years has shown that in peacetime the Communist movement is never strong enough to seize power. The dictatorship of such a party will only become possible as the result of a major war."

"Our choice is clear. We must accept the German proposal and politely send the Anglo-French mission home. Our immediate advantage will be to take Poland to the gates of Warsaw, as well as Ukrainian Galicia ..."

This is in concert with Second (Socialist) International Basel resolution which called proletariat to rise against warring capitalist, but what do you think? Whiskey 00:01, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)