Talk:Menachem Mendel Schneerson

IZAK, I am not touching the article for now any more than removing the Sorbonne, which is a popular urban legend but little more. This really needs a LOT of NPOV, especially since Schneerson is still one of the most controversial figures in Orthodox Judaism. To be intellectually honest, some mention must be made of Berger's book, whether you agree with it or not. You might also want to mention the brother-in-law (the one who got the streimel) and how that threatened Lubavitch unity, and give a more thorough coverage of meshichus (Messianism). Danny

Family information

Danny, does the brother-in-law info need to be included here, or in a separate article on the Lubavitchers? -- Zoe

Guys, the previous rebbe, Yosef Yitzchok , only had 3 daughters. One died young with no heirs. The other married the rebbe Menachem Mendel, the 3rd married Rabbi Gurarie who headed the Lubavitch yeshivas, he pre-deceased Menachme Mendel quietly. He was a quiet person and never a rival. He did have a son tho, Barry, who dropped out of Lubavitch completely, who was very critical of the movement and had no interest whatsoever in being their leader. The guy with the "strimel" is not even a relative I believe, he is just someone who wrote some books about the movement and arbitrarily decided to make himself a successor.Needless to say, no-one either inside or outside the movement took him seriously. There is NO successor, period. User:IZAK

Let's not make this a hagiography

Could certainly be included here. Essentially, what I was trying to say to IZAK is that this is a hagiography, not an article, and that the subject is still at the center of a virulent controversy. Danny

Danny and Zoe:

"hagiography means dealing with saints", which is not the case here. What we have is an exceptionally gifted spiritual leader who was able to "come from behind" and build a huge movement. This is a feat of leadership and organizational ablities, not sainthood.
That he was able to "think outside of the box" and was able to inspire a large cadre of loyal devotess to do his bidding, and influence presidents and prime ministers to boot, requires some insight into how the hasidic system actually works.
That he was controversial and misunderstood comes with the occupational hazard of being nothing less than a religious revolutionary with a burning zeal for Lubavitch Judaism.That's simply who he was, before the hunt for warts begins.
This wikipedia piece tries to make sense of the human dynamics of a highly charged spiritual leader, perhaps to his followers he is a saint, but even so, they are very down-to -earth people, and can be dealt with as such.
WE are not dealing with dry atoms, or impersonal cells under a microscope. Religious and spiritual subjects deserve the respect of a skeptical reader.
Forget Judaism for a moment.How could one explain the workings of Hinduism and Gurus, without trying to understand a spiritaual system that has more than a Billion devotees, without trying to get some sense of what it is that makes a guru a guru, and what does it mean to have extra-ordinary spiritual powers supposedly to levitate, believe in cows as holy, and fight demons, and be vegetarian for religious reasons as well.
Similarly, how to understand that about TWO Billion people on Earth are believers in a personal saviour and a dead super saintJesus who they claim to be a son of god,no less, and that there are religious leaders involved encouraging these beliefs?Or should two billion Christians, and a billion Hindus, as well as another billion Moslems be dismissed with the wave of a cyber-hand and simply stay away from this web-site simply because people are uncomfortable with looking at things in different dimensions? Not everyone on Earth is an atheist or agnostic, in fact very few people are, and they always make the mistake of thinking that it's the "other guy" who is "narrow-minded".
Does one have to have a cloud of "political correctness" descend upon deeper analysis, or should one take into account the inner dynamics of belief in Jesus as the Messiah, holy Hindu animals, and sacred Islamic worship of the kaba in Mecca, when dealing with religious subjects? It cannot be done in purely "clinical" terms. Similarly with Orthodox Judaism which is neither a passive state of affairs nor does it have a passive mind-set.After all, the Talmudical method sharpens the mind and makes one think, deeper, analytically, and more profoundly.
One needs to get a sense of what the system is like, taking into account BOTH the understandings of those on the inside looking out with those who suppose they are on the "outside looking in". There has to be a lot of synthesis and merging of perspectives to arrive at a semblance of ACCURACY if not TRUTH.
The ultimate question is do we want to look through windows and look far beyond out our own limited pre-conceived ideas about religion or the spiritual domain, or do we want to look into mirrors that reflect only what we see of ourselves a few inches ahead of our noses. The intelligent and objective scholar always looks for a window of opportunity rather that the stultification of "Political Corrections" which is just plain old boring.

Anyhow, this is an on-going discussion, thanks for the feed-back. User:IZAK

Danny,first must come a description of Rabbi Schneerson and his accomplishments, which are really of major and global proportions. I am not a devotee of Lubavitch, but I do believe that objectively speaking its accomplishments are so massive, that whatever crticisms may be levelled at it pale in scale to what the movement does, and this is due to Rabbi Schneerson's work. Who has even heard of the brother-in-law problem, and what does a family dispute that is long gone have to do with so vast a success as the world-wide Chabad movement? Berger's book has come after the Rebbe's death, and is directed at a minority clique. To me it seems more a case of sour grapes ex post facto of the life of Rabbi Schneerson. If you hate Lubavitch you will love Berger's book. But Berger is just a minor writer/lecturer and pales in the shadow of Lubavitch's work. As for the messianic urge within Hasidism, it has always been a part of the over-all movement and from time to time it spills over, but life still goes on as normal (even for a meshichist) as proof that the Messianic age has still not dawned on earth. User:IZAK

For someone who claims not be a devotee, your words both on the original page and here belie that. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, not a list of saints. -- Zoe

Zoe, See my remarks above. Some people think that President Kennedy was a "saint". Why? Did he do anything during hid life to earn him that title? Probably not. Are all Orthodox Jews "sinners", as some feel and imply, and it is only the more liberal branches that are "saints" by dint of them merely not being orthodox in the first place? Obviously not. Especially since Judaism does not believe in Saints at all. A Tzadik is not a "saint". It takes a lot of hard work to be successful at the top, and it's that hard work of our subject that needs to be appreciated in order to gain some meaningful insght into a very complex personality and his legacy.User:IZAK

IZAK, this article is reverting back to hagiography. "all strata"? -- Zoe

It's only a complicated history when you try to present a combination of fact and fiction as fact. Danny

Photo is too large

The current photograph of the Lubavitcher Rebbe is too big. Can we replace it with a more compressed version? RK

After your comment I in fact reduced to a smaller size/fit. IZAK

Matters of dispute

PhatJew wrote "The following discussion is largely based on controversial opinions of various sources. The reader would do well to check all assertions. There is a bitter and continuing battle within Orthodox Judaism being fought over the Legacy of the Rebbe. The following facts, figures and generalizations are all matters of dispute."

I removed this for now, because your comments are vague and thus unproductive. Could be more specific? Are you disputing the statement that most Chabad Lubavitch Jews are now messianic? Or are you disputing something else? Please feel free to contribute, but contribute something a bit more concrete. (BTW, the only studies I have seen on this subject have been by Orthodox Jews, and all agree that Chabad Jews are now messianic. This also corresponds to my personal experience, as most Chabad Jews I have met are now messianic.) RK 01:57 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Okay, I tried to take out all the Bergerisms and actually replace them with real facts. I hope you will excuse the framing of the controversy as a Hasidic versus Litvak thing...but that is basically a fact. If anybody denies that the cleavage is along the exact same lines as the Vilna Gaon and Baal Shem Tov, we can have a discussion about it and hammer out something acceptable. I really would have preferred to move the whole discussion to a page about the Hasidism and its opponents...but I only have so much time. PhatJew

The link to Labor is ambiguous. Can someone who knows the context please fix it? Thanks. Rossami 05:17, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Charge that the Rebbe was a racist

Unfortunately the debate on accuracy is missing the viewpoint of non-Jews from it. From a non-Jewish viewpiont the Rebbe was a racist supremacist Jew who sought to impose Talmudic law on all peoples (the Talmud itself for Jews, the Noahide laws ("One World Religion") on non-Jews). Indeed the US Congress, from Reagan on through Clinton, honored the Rebbe and the Noahide laws every year as part of Education Day (I hope that the Congressmen and Presidents who supported those measures are simply unaware of what the Noahide laws are and mean . . . ). Why are the supremacist and highly objectionable elements of the Rebbe's teachings not found in his Wikipedia page, which instead is consumed with some form of idolatry? Are the page authors in agreement with the supremacist viewpoints and the deep hatred toward Christianity, Islam and other religions reflected in them, and hence unwilling to highlight them to to the rest of the world? You cannot really understand the scope and depth of the Rebbe's supremacism without reading some of his most hateful writings, and I would suggest the site http://www.noahide.com/index2.htm to start with (not because it is his website but it conveniently sets forth many of his views). At http://www.noahide.com/son.htm, for example, we hear the supremacist view that "the Jewish people" are the first-born "special" children of God - "all of them", even though none of the current Jews was alive at the time of Exodus -, and nobody else is such a special child of God, based on a totally biased, false and dishonest interpretation of the Exodus passage 4:22-23. We also hear about a plan to impose rabbinical courts and Noahide laws on all the "Gentiles" who would then become "Hasidic Gentiles". See e.g. http://www.noahide.com/7laws.htm . I really hope Wikipedia will be more than just another propaganda / worship / idolatry vehicle but remains objective and presents issues from more than the side of the supremacist's supporters ! Sage

The fello writing the above remarks most be a lost soul, to state that the fact that jews claim that they are the first born is untrue witout bringing any proof is ludacris, and "hasidic courts"? the comandment clearly states courts of law, as in a justice system like what we have in this country as opossed to other places where it is courupt and where u can bribe judges.

Click the "Edit this page" link at the bottom of the article, and you can edit the article. Just be aware of our policy of neutrality (See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). --snoyes 16:36, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I am certainly no supporter of Rabbi Schneerson, but Sage's comments are out of line. Rabbi Schneerson has not written hateful things about gentiles. He has no secret plan to force his will through rabbinic courts on gentiles, or even on other Jews (Sage's "One World Religion). Sounds like a conspiracy theory! Sage's comments represent a naive reading, of Schneerson's beliefs. In regards to the specific points that Sage makes, the truth is that Scheneerson is probably no more "hateful" or "bigoted" than most Christian clergy. Doesn't nearly all of Christianity say that all people must become Christian, and follow Christian dogma? (Yes.) A lesser position is being held here. Hasidic Orthodox Jews do not believe that all gentiles must convert to Judaism; they only believe that, someday, they should all follow the seven Noahide laws. And a big point is that Sage doesn't even understand what these laws are; both Christianity and Islam already accept and teach these same laws! RK

What are the Noahide laws? The Talmud contains a list of seven commandments that Jews believe God required of the children of Noah, i.e. all humanity. These laws are: (1) to establish laws, and to refrain from (2) idolatry, (3) blasphemy, (4) sexual immorality, (5) bloodshed, murder, (6) theft, and (7) the tearing of a limb from a living animal for food. Jewish theology holds that gentiles need follow only these laws to be considered moral. There is no demand for gentiles to convert to Judaism; they implicitly allow non-Jews to have their own religions. Many Orthodox rabbis teach that the second law implicitly is a positive commandment to believe in God, but some argue that this is not the original meaning of the verse. The rabbis spent more time defining and prohibiting idolatry than they did describing God and demanding belief in a specific theology. In a surprisingly liberal and pluralistic view for the third century, one sage in the Talmud states "Whoever denies idolatry is called a Yehudi (Jew)." (Babylonian Talmud, Megilla, 13a). Even earlier, in the second century the Tosefta declared "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." (Tosefta, Sanhedrin 13) So how is this racist?! It isn't.

In the end, both fundamentalist Christians and Jews see the world as following the precepts of their faith. The Christians see the world converting to Christianity. The Jews see the world following the Noahide laws. You can agree or disagree with either view, but neither of these are hatespeech, racism or bigotry. RK 13:35, Jan 1, 2004 (UTC)

Interestingly, there is one significant charge of racism that could be brought against Rabbi Schneerson, and against Chabad Lubavitch Jews in general. In addition to following the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish oral law, and the classical rabbinic literature, they also accept the teachings of a relatively recent Hasidic mystical work, the Tanya. Some sections of this work do contain racist statements. This issue is discussed in the article on the idea of the chosen people. However, note that just because we find words in a book doesn't mean that everyone who reads that book believes everything in it literally. All Christians accept the New Testament, but today many Christians now reject its teaching that the the Jews are the children of the Devil. (Many Christians, sadly, do still have this belief. The point is that many others do not.) I personally believe that it is irresponsible to use any of the Tanya, ever, without first discussing the ethically troublesome parts, and repudating the specific sections which contain bigoted teachings. Most Chabad rabbis, including Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, unfortunately do not do this. They preach an uncritical acceptance of the Tanya, and often seem to ignore the ethically troublesome parts by cognative dissonace. As such, Chabad Lubavitch Jews have come under heavy criticism from within the Jewish community for this. RK 13:43, Jan 1, 2004 (UTC)

---

This Criticism is obviously not unauthorized probably, sees also the "Rabbinerbriefe" Cui Bono 17:37, Jan 16, 2004

Edit war notice

There is an edit war going on between myself and the devout, if un-Wikipedic, 68.237.36.204, who accuses me of abuse thereby. Any moderator who sees this before I report it, please look into the page history.

Fire Star 14:37, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

to Fire Star

why aren't you taking any notice of the evidential facts? Wikipedia user --68.237.36.204 17:23, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. Please know that I am in no way prejudiced against the Rebbe or Hasidism, and am interested in having a good informative page on them. It is just that the neutrality requirements of a public forum such as Wikipedia require that statements be made in a way that allows people to gather information in a safe, credible atmosphere. Scholars are reasonable people, and in this scholarly environment reason will attract more interest than blanket statements which appear "preachy." What do you think?

Regards,

Fire Star 17:35, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Protection

Hi all, Interesting debate as I have not been around a while. Question: Who locked this page up and when will it become open? It needs some edits.

One observation I have is that you CANNOT expect "people of faith" (or "true believers" or whatever you want to call them) to see things as would secular, "non-religious", (who are perhaps even atheists and agnostics) devoted to a "scientific" point of view! You also cannot expect Jewish Orthodox (Haredi) rabbis to shed their Judaism steeped in Torah, Talmud, and even Jewish mysticism, as for example taught in Tanya, to suddenly "sound" like "born-again" Reform or Humanist rabbis whose world view tends to incorporate elements of Western-style Humanism and Liberalism. Secular scientific persons who are not favorable and partial towards religion cannot claim to have "objectivity". People who are opposed or confused about Orthodox Judaism CANNOT shout that passages of religious texts need to be "repudiated" when not in harmony with the reader's more liberal world view. This can be taken to absurd extremes, such as in Communist Russia which edited out all mention of God in any publication because of their "scientific Marxism-Leninism".

So it's best to have in mind that there is a genuine divide between the way religious Jews see things and those who are not, and between the way people faith who are believers in God see things and those who thin k that they may be crazy. After all, Freud believed that belief in God was a psychological "reaction formation" and that religion is suspect. So are we then to put all religion and and its leaders into a proverbial Freudian "straight-jacket" too? Just some thoughts. --IZAK 11:35, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

IZAK: Freud... Tanya... I wish you'd get to the point. The page was locked because User:Chabad was dumping stuff here that had not been written with any form of POV in mind. He was pushing Psak Din.net (http://www.psakdin.net) and uploaded two big scans of the "psak din" to substantiate his agenda. He also changed everything into the present tense - it's very POV to claim that someone isn't dead while he is.

Orthodox Jews do not have to change their agenda, and are equally not required to falsify history. I think there's a problem linking this article to King messiah ten times and providing "psak din" links whenever possible.

I personally think the page can be unlocked. User:Chabad has gone away, having made his last edit in April. Perhaps I'll unprotect it myself in a few days, when I'm convinced this article will not again turn into a hagiography that has no pertinence to a non-Jewish secular encyclopedia-reader.

JFW | T@lk 13:12, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi Jfd: I was NOT talking about the issues you mention at all. The "Messianists" are nuts for thinking that they can get away with their drivel. I was referring to a more general challenge of reconciling the way "people of faith" view issues vs. the secular outlook of those who may be athiests, in the world of Wikipedia. Often-times secular minded persons will fire off comments that a statement is "POV" because it presents a "Believer's" outlook, and the problem then becomes that does one have to be "anti-religion" (or whatever the criterion is for espousing "NPOV") in order to comment "objectively" on religious subjects? This is just a general dilemma that exists. Obviously, Wikipedia is not the place to "preach" any doctrines, but often-times it becomes very difficult to fully convey what that doctrine really is in a clinical and true fashion when "under the gun" of "Doctrinaire NPOV" (how's that for a new concept). In the context of Lubavitch, one cannot grasp what their whole system is without really seeing it "from within", so to speak. IZAK 01:35, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

IZAK, I disagree. The easiest way to introduce this information is by saying: "xxx's followers maintain that their leader could fly". This is factual, NPOV and keeps everybody happy: the atheist outsiders, who believe that flying is for birds and bats, and the followers, who see their POV reflected in the article's content. See my Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler for an attempt at writing a POV-neutral article on an influential orthodox leader. JFW | T@lk 09:39, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Jfd my good man: What you have just said sounds like an over-simplification if ever there was one. It would be like attempting to compress and explain complex abstract poetry by concretizing and literalizing the poet's words into things he never said or even meant to say in any way. This method will never work to convey the captivating magic and beauty of poetry, let alone something as complex and spiritual as Judaism. Methinks, you are thinking too much like the scientist, and not enough as the man of the spirit, when in fact a blending of the two could only lead to a true balanced NPOV, don't you think? IZAK 06:54, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

IZAK, of course this is an oversimplication, but Wikipedia is not meant for captivating religious fervor. It documents historical and influential "memes" (yes, it's a Richard Dawkins word and therefore tainted) in human knowledge. I would argue that words by definition fall short in captivating religious experience, but this is especially so when the audience does not share your terminology. JFW | T@lk 08:36, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Continued on IZAK's talk page

Protection removed

I have removed protection for now, but User:192.115.106.236 is discouraged from introducing links to the King Messiah site, except in the (external links) section, and then no more than two.
This article should be on the person of the Lubavitcher Rebbe and his biography, his ideas and their influence. Let us limit references to his acts as a miracle worker and the fact that many followers ascribe messianic qualities to him. A brief mention should do for this encyclopedia, which is mainly read by people who do not need to be convinced as to his statue - they just want to know what he was about.
Please consult with an administrator before making extensive changes; this will decrease the likelihood of this article getting blocked in the future. JFW | T@lk 10:32, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I am concerned about the proliferation of links about Chabad, as well as the sudden disappearance of the paragraph on Prof. Berger. You might not like professor Berger, but his thoughts on the way Chabad deals with The Rebbe's memory are definitely encyclopedic. I you don't like the style of the paragraph, try to make it sound more neutral, but don't vandalize by simply removing it.

Concerning the Chabad links: please only include links to sites dealing directly with the person of The Rebbe, and not with sites outlining Chabad thought, however enmeshed the two might be. The reader will go to Chabad if they want that kind of material. JFW | T@lk 16:42, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

NPOV?

The article still displays an {{NPOV}}, and I was wondering if this still applies. The edit warring over this article has ceased after a period of protection, and nothing much has changed (apart from the occasional link vandal) since I unprotected it.
Shall we remove the NPOV tag? After all, the page is not much more hagiographic than pages on some other 20th century rabbis. JFW | T@lk 08:59, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have done a rather basic rewrite, and structured some stuff. There is still a fair bit of NPOVing to do. Some things that are presently under "biography" can probably go under other headers. Also, some sections may benefit from trimming. JFW | T@lk 20:09, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

One more instance of unilateral deletions and/or linkspamming, and I will reprotect this article. User:Chabad and User:24.46.133.125 have been warned. JFW | T@lk 13:50, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, User:EPTes provided the final straw. His comments are awaited below. Failing that, this article will be protected until 2 September. Sensible editors may contribute changed paragraphs below, which will be inserted into the article by an administrator. JFW | T@lk 15:35, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Biopgrahy section

The "Biopgrahy" title should be "Biography". Jayjg 15:47, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC) - Corrected JFW | T@lk

Unprotected again- let the Berger deletions begin!

The page has been unprotected; anyone want to take any bets on how long it is before the Berger paragraph is deleted? Jayjg 18:03, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

After Shabbos. They'll still not be mechalel shabbos to glorify the Rebbe's memory. JFW | T@lk 18:17, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ha! It took them 5 days. Jayjg 02:50, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Atzmus: God enclothed in a human body

User:Truthaboutchabad is entitled to inserting apologetics, but the explanation about Godly essence in a Rebbe is confusing. If it refers to the Godly soul in everyone, why is a Rebbe singled out? I will remove a further re-insertion if no clarification is given. JFW | T@lk 12:35, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Rebbe is singled out, just like every other Tzaddik and person that dedicates his life to serving G-d, in which case, he doesn't have anything covering over his soul, (The soul in itself is pure and part of G-d, when we do something against G-d the sould is concealed and gets covered over, [see Tanya]) because he only does what G-d wants, therefore his soul is revealed, as opposed to you and me that we have done things wrong in our lives, therefore our souls aren't in a revealed states as by the Rebbe or anyother Tzaddik.--Truthaboutchabad 23:03, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In truth that whole part should be taken out, there is no need to discuss every difficult concept that has explanations. Just like under Judaism it doesn't go into detaide philosophys and beliefs of every strange Jewish custom, and in the Replublican section it doesn't go into long discusssions of every hard to understand Republican concept and so on.......--Truthaboutchabad 23:17, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

TAC, you have reinserted a paragraph that makes absolutely no sense. You cannot expect your audience to be literate in Likutei Amarim, uh? JFW | T@lk 00:02, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Then leave out that whole paragraph, if you are going to make an accusation then you must let a response, if you don't understand the response then you don't understand the accusation.--Truthaboutchabad 00:25, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't understand what the NPOV warning is for. What is the problem? I'd like to discuss, rather than battle your insertions.

The statement about atzmus is confusing. Initially the paragraph states that only a Rebbe has "Godly features", yet later you claim that every Jew has an immortal soul etc. If you rephrase it so everybody understands the paragraph is certainly not a problem. JFW | T@lk 08:04, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It is unfair to make an accusation without hearing an explanation, since this page is describing Menachem Mendel Schneerson, therefore the Chabad Lubavitch viewpoint should be on the same page. This term refers to the G-dly soul, which is found in everyone, (and by a Tzaddik who does whatever G-d wants, his soul [which is part of G-d]is revealed in the body.) (See Tanya chapter 2, and a sefer called "Al HaTzadikim, writteb by R' Avraham Pavzener and published by Kfar Chabad.) The Rebbe is singled out, just like every other Tzaddik and person that dedicates his life to serving G-d, in which case, he doesn't have anything covering over his soul, (The soul in itself is pure and part of G-d, when we do something against G-d the sould is concealed and gets covered over, [see Tanya]) because he only does what G-d wants, therefore his soul is revealed, as opposed to you and me that we have done things wrong in our lives, therefore our souls aren't in a revealed states as by the Rebbe or anyother Tzaddik. If the Chabad Lubavitch explanation is too hard for one to understand, this is because complicated concepts can't be written in one paragraph, if somone feels that because they don't understand the concept and don't have the time to properly understand it they will remove the explanation, then they should also remove the opposition section as well.--Truthaboutchabad 02:13, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

TAC, please stop. I have absolutely no patience for your repeated insertion of exactly the same paragraph that I previously identified as unintelligble. The sentences are circuitous, and you have made no effort to rewrite it (you make the same mistake, writteb, in all articles where you insert it). JFW | T@lk 10:54, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

First off, I want to commend JFW on keeping this article impartial.

If I can suggest some changes to the article. Toward the beggining of the article, I think that "Their last names differed: The new Rebbe spelled his name "Schneerson", without the "h" of his predecessors' "Schneersohn"." isn’t really necessary and takes away from the "cleanness" of the article. What's the point, both the Rebbe and previous Rebbe spelled their names the same way in Hebrew (with a "hey") - as they were relatives, except when they came to America one accepted the english spelling with and "h" and one without. I think the “(with an “h”)” in the beginning should suffice.

In the "Vision" section, third paragraph, regarding "mitzvah campaigns" this is lacking some information. The Rebbe initiated a mitzvah campaign of ten Mitzvot and Nohide laws for gentiles.

Citing Maimonides, the Rebbe repeated time and again: a single person performing a single mitzvah, could be the deed that tips the scales and brings redemption to the entire world and all of creation.

So the Rebbe initiated a "Mitzvah campaign" a call to every Jew: Even if you are not fully committed to a Torah life, to do a Mitzvah. The Rebbe suggested ten possible "beginner's" mitzvot - precepts which, because of their centrality to the Torah's guide to life, are ideally suited for a first experience of the mitzvah connection.

1. Light Shabbat candles, 2. Tefillin, 3. Mezuzah,.4.. Torah Study, 5. Tzedakah (charity), 6. A home filled with holy books, 7. Kashrut (Jewish dietary laws), 8. "Love your fellow as youself," 9. Education, and 10. Observe Family Purity (laws pertaining to menstruation and ritual immersion afterwards in a pool of water known as a Mikvah). (belief in moshiach was not one these ten, rather perhaps the goal of the campaign as a whole).

Honorifics

Please provide Lubavitch sources which put the usual honorifics for the dead (e.g. a"h, z"l, z"tl) after Schneerson's name. Examples from official Lubavitch websites would be appreciated as well. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:06, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think that th recent disput over the stone in front of 770, shows where most of Lubavitchers feel as seen that almost everybody supported the one with those words of z"tl and a"h--Truthaboutchabad 05:10, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See this letter (2 pages) for the official and popular viewpoint. Media:letter1.jpg Media:letter2.jpg --Truthaboutchabad 05:26, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The letter doesn't make it clear which version of the plaque had which words. Can you be clearer? Can you also list the publications or websites which use these honorifics? By the way, in your view is Schneerson dead? Just a "yes" or "no" response, please, nothing longer. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:33, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Look at any book or publication published from the third of Tammuz 1994 and on, by Kehot, which is the official publishing house of chabad, and they use those titles. The letter was written in response to the removal of those terms from the front of 770 by a small group of people not affiliated with the people in charge of 770.--Truthaboutchabad 05:50, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How about you scan something, ok? And could you find a link to an official website that uses them as well please? Otherwise I think we're going to have to go back to "most", rather than "many". Oh, and by the way, in your view is Schneerson dead? Just a "yes" or "no" response, please, nothing longer. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:06, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I will try to scan something later, however you can go to a bookstore and take a look yourself as well. I will be switching my username from Truthaboutchabad to Eliezer.--Truthaboutchabad 06:20, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I guess you don't think he's dead then. Jayjg ^(talk) 06:36, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to get into a discussion about this because an encyclopedia is about facts not personal opinions, however since you keep bringing this up I will try to explain. I am uncomfortable with the word "dead" because it implies that the person that is here is no longer there at all. However I feel that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is still leading and guiding us just like before, similiar to Shimshon that he led the Jewish people for twenty years after his passing (discussed in Yershalmi Sota Chapter 1 Halacha 8). So in response to your question is he "dead", in 1994 he passed away, However the passing of a Tzaddik is different than the passing of an average person as explain in Tanya Iggeret Hakodesh letter 27 (http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive2.asp?AID=7972) and other places Therefore his passing doesn't stop him from continusaly leading us.--Eliezer 06:58, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Eliezer, will you concede that this is a bit counterintuitive? To be led by a spiritual entity, one would need some form of revelation. Apart from the endless jokes about the fax machines in the Ohel, how does the Rebbe provide guidance to his flock? Also: who has decided that the Chazal in Yerushalmi Sotah and the Iggeres ha-Kodesh #27 apply to him? JFW | T@lk 11:57, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So do you think there are other Jewish leaders who have "passed" but are not quite "dead"? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:19, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

From what I can tell on those jps it refers to him as "Admor", which would indicate that he is still alive. Is there something in the fine print I'm not seeing. Also, do you think there are other Jewish leaders who have "passed" but are not quite "dead"? Jayjg ^(talk) 03:46, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

admor stands for our teacher, and in chabad all Rebeimim are refered to by that name. What is explained in Tanya Iggeret Hakodesh letter 27 (http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive2.asp?AID=7972) seems to appy to all Tzadikim.--Eliezer 06:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

First, admor stands for "out master, our teacher, our Rabbi", and, as far as I have seen is applied exclusively to the living; do you have examples of it being applied to other dead people? Second, was there anything in those pictures that indicated he had died? I couldn't see it but the type was small. Third, can you name another tzadik who as "passed" but not "died"? Jayjg ^(talk) 06:35, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

First, see this (http://store.kehotonline.com/images/har-sm66.1.jpg) which can be found at http://store.kehotonline.com/index.php?stocknumber=HAR-SM66.1&deptid=3240&parentid=62&page=1&itemsperpage=10 which is about the Alter Rebbe.

Second, see the line either right after his name or below that, it may help to download the picture onto your computer and to zoom in.

Third, name any person that is a Tzadik, and it seems like Tanya Iggeret Hakodesh letter 27 (http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive2.asp?AID=7972) is applying to him as well.

OK, now how about something that says Schneerson is dead; is the font just too small on those other pictures for me to make it out? Also, what I was asking is if you knew of any "tzadikim" who have "passed" but not "died". Are there any "tzadikim" who Lubavitch thinks have "passed" but not "died", aside from Schneerson? Jayjg ^(talk) 06:55, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

the picture isn't a high quality one and on the original book it is very clear. I would suggest saving the picture onto your computer (right click and click save) and zooming in. Lubavitchers follow the Tanya, and in Tanya it states that every Tzaddik is in that status. I think your queestion is more like does Lubavitch think that there are any other Tzadikim besides Lubavitch. In response I quote from the first chapter in Tanya (http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive2.asp?AID=7880) quoting a Gemara in Yoma 38b, "The Almighty saw that the righteous were few, so He arose and planted them in every generation" It seems from here that there are some in every generation. Obviously those that are on a lower level of a tzadik for example what is refered to as a "beinoni of Tanya" never did anything wronk as explained at length in the first 15 chapters in Tanya that I will NOT explain here the diffrences between a tzaddik and a Beinoni. --Eliezer 07:04, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here should be a clearer picture (http://store.kehotonline.com/samples/images/ere-torastxt1.gif)--Eliezer 07:35, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey Eliezer, I'm very unhappy that this page is turning into a Tanya class. The questions are now: (1) Do all Chabad members believe that the Rebbe has passed without dying? (2) If not, how do the other interpret Iggeres ha-Kodesh chapter 27? (3) Which authorities have decided that the Yerushalmi applies to the Rebbe (or any other Tzaddik, for that matter)? JFW | T@lk 10:22, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I didn't want to turn it into a Tanya class, however to answer certain questions that I have been asked over and over I answered them. In responce to one, All chabad members believe this in regards to every Tzaddik including the Rebbe. Regarding two, I have never heard of any other interpatations of Iggeres ha-Kodesh chapter 27. In regards to the Yerushalmi, I believe that this is based on a feeling of chassidim and statements of the Rebbe regarding the previous Rebbe that if had led us until now he will surely continue leading us later as well.--Eliezer 00:44, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Recent edits

Eliezer, you seem to object to the latest edits to this article and Chabad Lubavitch; what specifically bothered you about them? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:12, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

unsourced pov, irrelevant links, and statements that need explanation and clarification (for example the igrot thing, which actually stems from the vilna gaon, who used to open up a chumash in the same way) Anything in particular that you were wonsering about?--Eliezer 04:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, it just seems that there is this strong Messianic group within Lubavitch about which you seem to want to suppress any knowledge or mention; you don't allow a discussion of their beliefs in the articles, or any links to their sites. Why is that? They information they provided seemed to be well sourced with plenty of links. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:46, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is already in the articles about chabad and Menachem Mendel Schneerson, However if you have more information, put it in in a sourced and non POV way, that is what wikipedia is about. (In regards to the links, See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Menachem_Mendel_Schneerson&diff=11705646&oldid=11694708--Eliezer 15:38, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC) See as well

Additionaly at the chabad article see

Also interesting is http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chabad_Lubavitch&diff=4285274&oldid=4187361 --Eliezer 16:06, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about the links themselves, but the changes to the article; what specifically did you object to? Jayjg ^(talk) 17:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In the chabad article the changes made by the anonymous user was adding a long list of links. In this article the changes made by the anonymous user was mostly adding links, and two paragraphs regarding other things, the first paragraph was about those that have the custom to open a book of letters from the Rebbe as a way to receive answers to their questions, however this paragraph was not written with the correct expanation of what it is all about and without the historical context. The second paragraph was a POV, and not factually true, a website doesn't qualify as "paralel fundraising and educational institutions". --Eliezer 02:27, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Literally contacting the rebbe through reading his books

It is an important theological phenomenon that many - probably most - Chabadniks believe that they can still communicate with rabbi Schneerson. I have seen this done myself (although I doubt that the "answer" actually came from R. Schneerson.) The point is that many Chabadniks do this, while most other Orthodox Jews would never do such a thing. It is thus a distinguishing characteristic between Chabad and non-Chabad Jews. RK 02:35, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the historical practice of opening holy books at random to freceive guidance, See the Birkei Yosef in Yoreh Dei'ah, siman 179, se'if 8 says in the name of the Maharikash: "It is permissible to open the Torah to see what pasuk appears, since it is our life, and just as we see with Yoshiya, who did something because he found a Sefer Torah rolled up to a particular pasuk and so it is common practice. (end quote of the Maharikash)

"And it says in the Yalkut Mishlei, siman 219, if you want to take an eitza from the Torah, take it. As we find that Dovid says, "b'fikudecha asicha" (end of the Yalkut). Apparently, taking an eitza from the Torah is possible and in this is included opening the Torah to see what pasuk appears. And I found in a kuntres, a manuscript from Rabbi Eliyahu Cohen z'l (the author of Shevet Musar) who wrote as follows: I received from my teachers, that when they wanted to do something, and were uncertain whether to do it or not, they would take a chumash or nach and would open it, and look at the top of the page to see what pasuk was there, and based on the pasuk they would take action. And so it comes out, that they consulted the Torah to know what to do in all their inyanim, and this itself is alluded to in the statement of our sages z'l, litol eitza min ha'Torah that it rules it permissible to do so, and this is not at all in the category of 'utilizing the Torah'(end of quote). And it's also possible that our sages z'l ruled on this that despite the fact that it says in Sifri that one does not ask through lots for it says, "tamim tihiyeh," however, in such a way, it is permitted v'dok heitev.(end quote of Birkei Yosef)--Eliezer 03:29, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ariel

And along comes Ariel. I had to revert all your stuff on Menachem Mendel Schneerson. Firstly, to insert {{TotallyDisputed}} without a talk page antecedent is ridiculous. Secondly, you put whole sections in nowiki tags - pointless and a formatting problem. Thirdly, you put many external links in the text body. This is not normally done. Finally, there were way too many external links at the end.

Please be aware that there are various editors on Wikipedia who are basically positive about Chabad and its work, but will not tolerate the use of the Rebbe and Chabad articles as biased outlets of Chabad info. JFW | T@lk 19:32, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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