Talk:Meditation
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Meditation is the act of calming and focusing the mind while avoiding rationalistic thought processes and random fantasies. <be>Is this a proper definition of what meditation is?
Meditation the way most people practice it seems to me little more than poitless. What is the good of freeing or calming or focussing or whatever the mind when the body that it inhabits is sitting or lying or whatever in a depressive heap or just as bad with a forced state of 'good posture'. It's like trying to clean up and organise the inside of a house while the walls are crumbling and the foundations cracked. (Critto, but unlogged)
- Good name, but meditation depends also on 'opening one's mind' (all techniques excluding the trance-based ones, for the trance 'narrows' mind instead of 'opening' it). (Critto, but unlogged)
Some people experience random fantasies as part of the meditation experience, and I was under the impression that meditation could be a state of calming in order to experience rationalistic thought processes.
- "Meditation is the act of calming and focusing the mind..." This is correct.
Anyone that may experiences fantasies while meditating is having difficulty in their practice. The outcome of a meditative mind may result in calmness and a more clear mind but meditation practices vary.- Exactly. For example, in TM (Transcendental Meditation) one must meditate with his (or her) eyes shut, and there are no 'visions' (well, there happen some) while in Raja Yoga (RJ, by the Brahma Kumaris methods), one must meditate with his (her) eyes open, IN ORDER TO AVOID VISIONS from coming to mind (mind's eyes). I have practised it myself for years (both methods), and I know many other people who did, so I tested it myself (Critto, but unlogged)
This is probably why the definition is so short.
I've yet to read or contribute to this topic but because of your inquiry, I'm sure things here will improve. Thanks for the question.
I agree the meditation description needs work. Right now it rather randomly selects two sets of meditation-practice to focus on, where there are probably hundreds of such.
- Yes, and I think that it would be better to concentrate on those few main movements, while mentioning other ones. Well, I have once seen a book called "From dusk to dawn: 101 meditation techniques" (its title was in Polish, I have now re-translated it to English), so if one book containted 101 techniques, there are probably thousands around. But without TM (Transcendental Meditation), Raja Yoga, Hatha Yoga, and some other directions, discussion on meditation would make absolutely no sense. (Critto, but unlogged)
kh7 12:53 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)
Many hundreds indeed. Buddha even mentioned that there are 84000 righteous practices to reach enlightenment, of which his Buddhism is only one.
- Only one word to sum up: _exactly_. (Critto, but unlogged)
What about introducing the concept that is basic to them all, namely detachment. Or, as in Gurdjieffian terminology: inner considering should be lessened, outer considering should be enhanced. Or meditation as a means to eliminate negative emotions, such as anger, worry, depression, envy, etc., each negative emotion betraying a particular attachment. What about the symbolism of Plato's cave illustrating how meditation can be a tool to enable a human being, imprisoned in his cave of illusions, to turn around a 180° towards the light (= insight and realisation of what reality truely is? Satrakshita 29.11.2003 15:19 CET
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infobox?
Does anyone find the infobox bulky and noisesome? [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Meditation&diff=3411051&oldid=3411026) It seems that almost every word points to one of two or three files.... Can't they be cogently in-linked naturally? Meditation is hardly just about medicine; shall we have infoboxes about every field that touches upon meditation? Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit§ion=new)] 03:10, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Shall we duplicate every article? Hardly just about medicine? Well the first section is entitled: Health Uses and Benefits. Then there is a See other section. This article is hardly about anything other than Health Uses and Benefits of meditaiton. -- [[User:Mr-Natural-Health|John Gohde | Talk]] 05:18, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I've edited to create a clearer outline of subjects. The infobox is partly under see also, and partly a category listing. Meditation is not just about health benefits, so I would counsel not having a huge box focused on just that aspect. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit§ion=new)] 05:43, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- The use of category:alternative medicine was created by me in order to provide alternatives in the few cases where a topic could be listed under more than one topic, such as in astrology and cognitive behavior therapy. I reserve the right to create Meditation (alternative medicine) at a later date. Meditation is not my top priority at the moment. -- [[User:Mr-Natural-Health|John Gohde | Talk]] 17:40, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- The article Meditation (alternative medicine) could well prove a good idea, as medicinal uses may be sufficiently distinct from traditional aspects of meditation to warrant a separate organization. Good thinking. For now content is sparse enough to have things together, and nobody will fail to recognize the Category link. If you do create a separate entry at some point, I would recommend leaving at least some information in this present entry about medicinal uses. Trc | [msg (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Trc&action=edit§ion=new)] 18:01, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Done. See Meditation (alternative medicine). -- [[User:Mr-Natural-Health|John Gohde | Talk]] 17:03, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I would also like to add articles on Mindfulness meditation and Concentration meditation. -- [[User:Mr-Natural-Health|John Gohde | Talk]] 18:31, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Some edits
Some grammar problems, removed a sentence differentiating anapanasati from vipassana (since it can be practiced either as vipassana or as samatha), de-capitalized "enlightenment", some stylistic stuff, a little NPOV, redundancy. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 08:57, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I added some sentences making the article more NPOV and clarifying references to God, which are undefined, and POV if they refer to a specific one. I also fixed grammatical errors and some odd sentence structure, as well as tried to maintain active vs. passive voice.--naryathegreat 02:26, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)
Intro overhaul
I have made major edits to the inital sections of the article, following the "be bold" mantra. = ) As it was, the text was unacceptably POV, focusing on spiritual benefits with awkward lip-service to other viewpoints. It was a good-faith effort, but I have tried to introduce more succinct and objective phrasing.
Regarding the substantial amount of deleted text, most of it seemed specific to one particular view of meditation, and not appropriate for the introductory sections. The intro to the article should be a concise, objective summary of what meditation is, without descending into the labyrinths of spirituality proper. Improvements welcome as always. Jeeves 08:05, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Specific traditions
The "Specific traditions" section of this article doesn't seem very specific. The only direct mention of a tradition is the bullet for Theravada Buddhism, the rest are vague descritpions of technique followed by the names of the traditions themselves. I propose to rewrite this section, keeping the info but rearranging it more as a list of traditions first, then having the describing sentences after the names of the traditions. Comments? Fire Star 13:58, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- This page was a bigger mess than I'd noticed at first. I've tried to make the page more general, as there are many, many meditative traditions outside of the New Age stream of thought, and to concentrate on New Age approaches to all of them does them a disservice in the long run. There is certainly room for such approaches to be mentioned here, as they are relatively popular, but the mention should be in the context of their own recent history, not to shed light on traditions thousands of years older. Fire Star 16:57, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Adverse effects
With so many reported beneficial effects I found it necessary to also add a paragraph on the possibility of adverse effects of meditation. According to many teachers of meditation the practice of meditation is not a quick-fix, and not something to be handled lightly. In some cases the practice of meditation might expose the meditator to powerful existential problems that he/she is not ready to handle. --Hawol 17:22, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The first paragraph of this section has no information and is very confusing.
rewires the brain
- Dr. James Austin, a neurophysiologist at the University of Colorado, reported that Zen meditation rewires the circuitry of the brain in his landmark book Zen and the Brain (Austin, 1999).
What is that supposed to mean? Exactly how does it rewire the brain, and what are the effects of the zen-rewired brain?
Origins of meditation; early images
One sometimes hears of very early images of meditation discovered by archaeologists. An image of a seal "from the Mohenjo Daro region of India, ca. 2,500 B.C.E." is visible on the cover of this pdf of the Fall 2004 issue of Biofeedback Magazine (http://www.aapb.org/files/public/BIOFEEDBACK_FALL04_WEB.pdf). Personally I find it regrettable that "This yogic seal is copyrighted, and utilized with the permission of J.M. Kenoyer, courtesy of the Department of Archaeology and Museums, Govt. of Pakistan." Another, somewhat similar image is visible about halfway down this page on "Tantra in Ancient Times" (http://www.tantraworks.com/Ancient_Tantra.html). (Google Images is great. I just entered meditation harappa and that was the only hit.) I notice that T. N. Ramachandran in "Harappa & Jainism" identifies another citation (http://www.jainsamaj.org/literature/harappa-150104.htm) namely "engraved seal from Mohenjo-Daro (Cambridge Hist. of India, 1953, Pl. XXIII) of the third millennium B.C". (Might be redundant with one of the above?)
However, Willard Johnson, in Riding the Ox Home points out that simply sitting crosslegged doesn't comprise evidence that Harappan civilization practiced meditation. He seems to think the earliest evidence of meditation was around 500 BC. I'd add that the images do not clearly depict Lotus posture at all, but are more similar to Yoga's bound angle pose (Baddha Konasana) (http://www.yogajournal.com/poses/486_1.cfm). If we publish an image, we should not represent it as early evidence of meditation without qualifying our statement. I have not yet consulted The Origin and Development of Early Indian Contemplative Practices, E. F. Crangle. Harrassowitz Verlag, 1994. Any opinions? --Munge 04:57, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Meditation and the brain; plus some comments...
Mindfulness meditation and related techniques are intended to train attention for the sake of provoking insight. Think of it as the opposite of attention deficit disorder. A wider, more flexible attention span makes it easier to be aware of a situation, easier to be objective in emotionally or morally difficult situations, and easier to achieve a state of responsive, creative awareness or "flow".
Daniel Goleman & Tara Bennet-Goleman believe that meditation works because of the relationship between the amygdala, which handles emotions, and the neocortex, which handles reasoning.
The neocortex is smart, deep, flexible, but also very slow. Meanwhile, the amygdala is fast but stupid. It makes rapid judgements, keyed to danger (fight or flight), and has greater control over our behaviour. If you're standing on the savannah and a tiger jumps out at you, your amygdala will have you running and screaming for help long before your neocortex can even figure out what's happening.
Unfortunately, because the amygdala frequently jumps to conclusions, it often sees danger where there is none, particularly in contemporary society where social conflicts are much more common than encounters with predators.
Certain kinds of meditation (also, martial arts, yoga, etc.) train attention to watch the entire experience, so it's possible to catch emotions before they take over--yet still respond quickly to a situation. The trick is that there is very little time to do this (something like a quarter of a second) before the amygdala takes over and the person is flooded with emotion. But the idea is that a skilled meditator can quickly reframe fear and anger, and mould them into constructive responses and often good cheer.
Also--someone above was wondering how meditation rewires the brain... I don't want to over-simplify, but there have been studies linking meditation and increased activity in the left prefrontal cortex, which is associated with concentration, planning, meta-cognition (thinking about thinking), and with positive affect (good feelings). There are similar studies linking depression and anxiety with decreased activity in the same region, and/or with dominant activity in the right prefrontal cortex.
Meditation increases activity in the left prefrontal cortex, and the changes are stable over time--even if you stop meditating for a while, the effect lingers.
Some other points of interest:
The word meditation derives from the word "media" or centering--i.e. coming into balance.
Also, the Stoics as well as other early Western philosophical traditions (including some flavours of Judaism) also had techniques for training attention which most likely influenced Christian prayer and monastic traditions.
Okay--thanks for listening,
--Pariah 22:56, Mar 7, 2005 (UTC)
- I found this fascinating, and recommend that it be included in the main article, with some minor re-wording for POV. - are there any objections?Banno 04:56, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks! I have no objections if no one else does. The primary reference is Tara Bennet-Golman's book Emotional Alchemy, ISBN 0-609-60752-9. I'll see if I can dig up some others. Also, I forgot to mention MBCT (Mindfulness-based Cognitive Therapy) which incorporates Mindfulness techniques with Cognitive Behaviour Therapy to prevent depression relapse--it's only in the research phase, however. Similarly, Dialectical Behaviour Therapy uses elements of Eastern philosophy--although I'm not sure how much actual meditation.--Pariah 10:34, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
Purposes rewording
rewording Purposes of Meditation beginning mid-paragraph
"Many have found improved concentration..." NPOV'd to "Many report improved concentration..."
"Generally, there is religious meditation...and..." has to be "Generally, there are religious meditation...and focus mediation...."
Reworded other sentences only for readability, not content.
Could "The disciplined self-cultivation aspect of meditation..." be better phrased, "The cultivation of self-discipline in meditation..." ??