Talk:Manchester United F.C.

If User:Bluemooners is going to insist on including Shaun Goater as a noted Manchester United player I wish he'd learn how to properly use Wikipedia linking syntax! In any case, as ManU sold him to Rotherham after two years he hardly made much of an impression at Old Trafford (- 0 games, 0 goals (http://www.service.uit.no/mancity/players/old/goater.html)).... -- Arwel 13:29, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It appears this page has been vandalised.19/4/04User:Andycjp

Contents

1 Crest 2 Notable Players 3 Original language? 4 Successful managers? 5 Gavin Campbell 6 writing up articles tidily 7 History 8 The ALex Ferguson Era 9 Splitting the club's history into new pages

Crest

I'm sure that the Manchester United emblem displayed here is out of date; it changed slightly (colours and wording; it no longer specifies Football Club) in about 1998, I think. Kinitawowi 11:50, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

The PLC board changed the club crest for the sole purpose of 'branding', to the enormous annoyance of many of the 'traditional' united fans. It is seen as indicative of the PLC's lack of focus on the 'football' side of the business, rightly or wrongly.

Notable Players

Why are Diego Forlan and Fabien Barthez on the notable players list. They got rid of barthez and forlan has a terrible record.

Well, I didn't hate Barthez (that Silvestre donkey, on the other hand...), but I do agree that Notable Players is in dire need of a massive rewrite; it pains me to admit it, but the player list section is actually done better at the moment on the Liverpool page. I certainly like the "current squad" section it uses. Kinitawowi 12:55, Sep 13, 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't djemba-djemba be removed?

Huh? He was removed from the "current squad" list on January 31, the day he was transferred. -- Arwel 17:10, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Original language?

I'm not fussed about crests displayed being current ones or not.But the article as it stands reads more like an official brochure than an impartial reference work.Is the writing original or does some of it come from Manchester United's PR department?--L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

On the current squad section, why does Roy Carroll not have any flag next to him?

Presumably because no-one found the Northern Irish flag, which is non-standardly named, being a gif rather than a png! -- Arwel 20:29, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

More or less precisely it; that and the fact that I was trying to find the cross of St Patrick, as the "red hand flag" looks a bit too close to the cross of St George in the minimised form. The cross of St Andrew (used for Darren Fletcher) is also non-standard. Kinitawowi 09:44, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Good sources of flags are the World Cup or European Championship qualification articles - plenty of countries on there! -- Arwel 09:58, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

edited Bobby Charlton survivor of Munich to read help England win the world cup, rather than lead ( implied he was the captain.

--Greatbear 09:35, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

Please do not use Man U in the text ( Its an unfortunate abbreviation that many supporters take offence at )

--Greatbear 16:18, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Successful managers?

Having a 'successful managers' section seems a bit POV and also a bit wasteful when there is another managers' list below it. Might it be more sensible to merge these? Perhaps some factual information about the achievements of each could be added to enable the reader to decide. Andrewferrier 19:47, 2004 Nov 27 (UTC)

---

Slightly confused as to why the article mentions Steua and Reims as other clubs to have appeared in just two European Cup Finals. Was there any particular reason for selecting these clubs over others with the same record (FC Porto and Olympique Marseilles for example)? It seems to me these particular clubs are being used to portray Manchester United in a slightly derogatory light, and that no comparisons are in fact neccessary. --Alilaw 12:52, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Gavin Campbell

Who's that guy, when did he get the No. 21 shirt?

Probably got the number 21 last night when User:Gavincmbll added it to the article! -- Arwel 12:26, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

writing up articles tidily

would whoever wrote up the club's extended history in this article be so kind (and one-tenth as enthusiastic) and do the internal linking bit as well for what you wrote? -Mayumashu 05:54, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

History

This section just repeats a lot of what's in the History of Manchester United article. Wouldn't it be better to merge the two one way or the other? It seems a waste of time to have people editing both articles. Cantthinkofagoodname 11:00, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The ALex Ferguson Era

The very last part :

"but there is still a good chance of success in the shape of an F.A Cup victory over Arsenal in the final on 21st May. During the close-season, at least two major signings would be useful if United are to perform to the best of their ability in 2005-06. A title challenge should be their minimum target, as they have been realistic challengers in the league for the last 14 seasons. The European Cup should also be a priority, as they have yet to equal the success of 1968 and 1999."

Seems terribly to violate NPOV or original research. It is defintiely commentary that I do not htink is appropriate. I am sure a similar sentiment can be expressed in a much more neutral way.--Gangster Octopus 16:49, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Splitting the club's history into new pages

The history section was split out of the page last year (I think) but someone then wrote another history section in the main page. Both pages are now well over the recommended maximum size for a Wikipedia article, and it's getting to the stage where I suspect people are editing them without reading them all the way through (which would explain why the Glazer takeover is mentioned twice in Manchester United, in roughly the same amount of detail each time).

So, my idea is to create new pages for different eras in United's history, merge the relevant bits of Alex Ferguson, History of Manchester United and the History section of Manchester United into each new page and put summaries of each new page on Manchester United, with comments asking people not to make the summaries too long. The new articles would have titles like:

• Manchester United pre-1945
• Manchester United 1945-1968
• Manchester United 1968-1986
• Manchester United 1986-present

I think something like this is necessary to keep the pages manageable, but obviously don't want to make such big changes to other people's work without hearing what people think first. Please let me know what you think on this page.

Thanks, Cantthinkofagoodname 10:42, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, go for it. I can't say I envy you all that work though. ;) There's a definite need for some pictures, too ... perhaps I'll look into doing that (so you don't have to do everything!); one for each of the four history sections, maybe. The original history of Manchester United page would need to be deleted once all the merging and construction had taken place. Proto 11:13, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Nice idea, but I'm not entirely sure. I know the history needs a huge reworking (personally, I think the Glazer takeover - timeline, effects and implications, reactions - is probably a big enough event to warrant an article of its own)... but for some reason I don't think I like the split history. It looked fairly manageable when it was in a page of its own, so why it was steadily remerged into the article is anyone's guess. However, given that the article can only possibly grow, and that it does need management, I'd say aye. I'll be glad to help out wherever I can. Kinitawowi 11:55, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

I think you have a really good idea here! In fact, I can think of a few more Premiership pages—and even one NON-LEAGUE (!) page (I'm thinking of AFC Wimbledon)— that could need this treatment in the not-too-distant future. I do agree that the Glazer takeover does warrant an article of its own. One detail that's especially interesting to me in the Glazer saga is the apparently developing links between AFC, or at least certain elements within AFC, and strongly anti-Glazer United fans. Back to the article... I have a couple of ideas:

• Once the project is done, don't kill the History of Manchester United page entirely, but make it a dab to the individual history sections. Better yet, create a template so that users can easily jump from one article to another.
• With the number of players who have played an important role in United history, you could almost create a master list of important players, either in the main article or in its own article, and then have sublists in each of the history articles, keyed to era.

As Proto would say, "I don't envy you all that work." Nonethless, go for it!  :) Dale Arnett 13:06, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

I have made a list of important players. It is located at List of Manchester United players. Add as you see fit. 67.173.107.96

I defineately agree with this idea. It would make things clearer and easier to read. Not knowing what everyone's ages are, I would guess the history would be weakest for the Pre-1945 section, particularly anything before 1908 or after 1911 (the lean years). 67.173.107.96

I would suggest leaving History of Manchester United as it is, with links to sections which will contain more detail. Then we can go through and cut the detail from it, so it will give a general overview while peeps can click on the relevant links for more info about specific eras. I wrote pretty much the whole thing based on The Hamlyn Illustrated History of Manchester United 1878-1997 and it was a real job deciding what details were important and what to summarise. It's a great book and there's a lot in there which could be used for greater detail, especially the early years (pre-WW2). --Legalizeit 12:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I've created Manchester United pre-1945 from the text in History of Manchester United and added some stuff from this article to it. I'd have preferred to have something like a 50-50 split, but the section in History of Manchester United was more detailed so there wasn't a lot to add from here. I'd like to hear what people think of the pre-1945 article before I do any more on this, so please let me know whether you still think this is all a good idea. If anybody wants to help, it's probably best if you choose one or more of the sections and let us know here which one(s) you're doing. Please note that for post-1986, there's a lot of stuff on Alex Ferguson's page which is more about United than him and which could be merged into the new article. Cantthinkofagoodname 16:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I've taken the stuff on 1945-69 from both articles and merged them into Manchester United 1945-1969. Any comments would be welcome. I'm a bit concerned about attributing the text of the "new" articles, so if anyone knows how to get the article history sorted please let me know. CTOAGN 14:36, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And I've done the same for Manchester United 1969-1986. CTOAGN 16:51, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They're all done now. The new articles are at:

• Manchester United pre-1945
• Manchester United 1945-1969
• Manchester United 1969-1986
• Manchester United 1986-present

I spotted a few inaccuracies going through the articles but haven't had time to fix them all. I think each article should have its own introduction summarising that period of United's history. It'd be great if someone else could do that, but if not I'll probably get round to it tomorrow. So I think now we need short summaries of United's history to go on this page and links to these articles. And possibly a message telling people to put long histories of the club in the linked article so no-one has to do this again :-D

I'm still concerned about attibuting the text to the contributors who wrote it, but I'm sure there will be a hack that can fix it.

Legalizeit, I like your idea about cutting down History of Manchester United and linking to the new sections, but I think once that's done it should be moved back into this page as the new History section. Does that sound alright to you? We could link from this article to HOMU and from them to the new ones but I think that's too longwinded.

CTOAGN 21:30, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd help, but at the moment my left arm's in a sling (tendonitis) - if nobody else has done it by next week, I'll have a crack at it. Proto 09:19, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've had a go at it but they still look a bit too long. Might edit them down further CTOAGN 13:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've done the summaries now, although I think it might be good to split the last article/section at the end of the 1999 season. I hope no-one's offended by my having reworked the page so much, but I thought it needed to be done with having duplicate history sections of that size. It's also a bit more feasible to read the whole page now which should prevent the same thing appearing twice and make vandalism a bit easier to spot. I'd be interested to hear any comments, and if anyone knows how I can sort out the attributions for the new aricles please let me know, otherwise I'll have a trawl through the WP documentation for it sometime. CTOAGN 10:57, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)