Talk:Lucid dreaming
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Though a bit old now, this is a solid reference book about lucid dreaming:
Lucid Dreaming: The Paradox of Consciousness During Sleep
Should perhaps be added to the litterature list
Should wipe away some doubts:
http://www.stanford.edu/~mgoldens/lab/psyphy_lucidity.html
OK - I'm a bit of a campaigner against Pseudoscience in the Wikipedia. But I won't argue with valid scientific resarch, if it exists.
If there is "no scientific doubt" as to the existence of lucid dreaming, please put in some web links to some published articles validating the research and claims. Currently your links are only to un-referenced names. Otherwise your claims will come under some intense heat around here. - ManningBartlett
Much of the earlier info on lucid dreaming in the literature has been discredited. I think the phenomenon exists as an occasional and idiosyncratic experience (like deja vu), but is of little practical importance.
- Whoops - well we need to back up here. I still don't like the tone of the article, it IS a bit airy-fairy but Stephen Laberge is legitimate. Here is an academic paper published in a neurophysiology journal I am professionally aware of. {http://www.asdreams.org/journal/articles/laberge5-3.htm]. Seems like there IS scientific justification after all. ManningBartlett
LET THE RECORD SHOW - that I will back down when given due evidence. I've now seen two research papers from academic journals. I've even put a dissociating note about lucid dreaming in the pseudoscience article. - MB
- Entry on lucid dreaming in the Skeptic's Dictionary, links: http://www.skepdic.com/lucdream.html
I cut the link to the above because after reading it, we are in danger of showing bias by citing it as a proper reference in this case. The SkepDic entry does not dispute any of the findings (aprt from quoting a 1959 paper which the later papers invalidate), it only criticises the fact that LaBerge has made a lucrative cottage industry out of his research.
This commercial activity does not change the validity of the research, and hence is irrelevant. To report this means that we need to start questioning the commercially-related activities of all scientific research, eg. drugs, etc, which will dig us into a DEEP hole.
Just because lucid dreaming is associated with the new age movement, doesn't meaning we can dismiss it. There are at least 2 articles in known and respected neurophysiology journals (I read Dreaming during my med school days), and hence it meets ALL the critieria for valid scientific research and evidence. - MB
- So let's note all that with the Skepdic link.
- This occurred to me, actually. What do we do with people like Carlos Castaneda, Terence McKenna, John Mack, or, some would argue Andew Weil, who have some sort of respectable academic background, but then veered into questionable territory? Presumably note the facts on both sides.
How can lucid dreaming be an explanation of alien abductions? Isn't knowing that you're dreaming one of the main characteristics of lucid dreaming? If you know you're dreaming, how can you think that you've really been abducted by aliens? --Zundark, 2001 Oct 16
- According to the linked article, it's not technically lucid dreaming, but another phenomenon that is related to it--dreaming that you've woken up--that can be used as an explanation. This should be explained more clearly.
I'm guessing that it's probably because the dream state is so intensely real, that the dreamer refuses to acknowledge that the events did not happen in reality. It's certainly a lot more plausible that actually being abducted by aliens. It's only a theory (as noted).
- I recall reading that some phenomenae that seem to mix dreaming and waking may be related to a sleeping disorder where the sleep paralysis mechanism that sets perception and cognitive motor control to "dream-mode", in a way "leaks". This may lead, for example, into hallucinations involving non-real (dream) entities appearing in the real (waking) bedroom at the time when the person is falling asleep or person experiencing physical paralysis and helplessness. This sounds much like something abduction stories coould be made of.
- Lucidity might also then be a wrong phenomenon to blame. I'm afraid I don't have more exact terms or references at hand, but I thought I'd mention this. --blades 23:52, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
In many alien abduction stories, the abductee claims to have been sleeping, then have woken up and been abducted. After the abduction, this person supposedly awakens in bed as if nothing happened. Most likely, the person dreamed that they woke up, then and dreamed they were abducted. --Aesir
I dream lucidly on a regular basis. I'm as far from New Age-ish as one can get and still be permitted to live in California (ha ha). I must confess that I never knew that this was rare or controversial. --Jimbo Wales
- I also dream lucidly regularly, and I did not know the topic was so controversial. I think it exists because i know it exists. Reading about all this extreme skeptisism has fascinated me in a way - almost makes me glad i dont live in salem. Makes me think of all the things i dont think exist but someone else says they do. Hmm. deanos
- Well, the obvious question is, do you actually have free will in the dream, or do you merely dream that you have free will? Of course, you've really got to question whether that'd be any different from real life. Sockatume 11:50, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't understand how this issue is controversial at all. Why does it matter if it's science or pseudoscience? It exists. -- Lament
- Lucid dreaming is neither. It is a natural phenomenon or a feature of one. That one being dreaming, itself a feature of sleep. Study of it can be science if conducted right. And that is, indeed, being done. --blades 18:03, Apr 20, 2004 (UTC)
I have had a handful of lucid dreams in my life (my first wasn't until I was over 25). In my most extreme case, I even did an experiment: I thought to myself, if this is a dream, I should be able to morph something (in this case a fishtank) and I successfully morphed it from a retangular to spherical fishtank. The other occcasions were sexual dreams (lucky me). I am not hippie and I am very skeptical. But this phenomena is real. -- Jason Quinn
I removed this quote from the end of the first section: "If I wanted, I could visit the Shaolin Temple of ancient China (while within a lucid dream state). I could have a Shaolin monk lay his hands upon my dream body, surging all of the knowledge surrounding Kung Fu into my brain-- the philosophies and the techniques. When I awaken, I will be just as good or perhaps even better than any serious student of the martial arts who has practiced for decades even though prior to my lucid dream, I had no previous knowledge of Kung Fu."
I'll let someone else decide whether it merits inclusion, but it needs to be attributed if it is to be put back in. (It's obvious from context who must have said it, but where? Is it taken from some publication?) Aranel 16:23, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Sounds dubious to me. I've had Matrix-themed lucid dreams, for example. In these I generally have awesome kung-fu skills, although I never remember actual "moves", just the act of performing furious punch-blocks. When I awake, I'm just as pathetically incapable at punching in a straight line as when I went to bed. I mean, the proposed monk would just be a dream character, a facet of the dreamer's own mind, like everyone else. There's no reason to believe that it'd have any knowledge the real individual lacks. Thinks like muscle memory and muscle tone take time to develop, too, and require physical activity.
- While I'm on the subject of crazy Matrix-related stuff, I'm considering putting the common lucid dreaming experience of flight into the phenomena list (should it be mentioned that many individuals use lucid dreaming for sex as well (what would Freud say about that, I wonder?)). The former is commonplace enough in my experience to warrant an entry, methinks. After all, it does have "maximum awesomeness" (although dream-based bullet-time is somewhat groovier).Sockatume 22:14, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've removed the following paragraph as I couldn't find any reference on the web to this Mr. Kidney. I suspect it's a joke. Please restore this if I'm wrong. --LeeHunter 01:08, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- One author of many religious and occultic articles, Lord Grant Jarac Kidney VIII once described lucid dreaming as "The gateway to the heavens". Kidney has even gone as far as to stating that human beings have the potential to materialize objects of any sort via lucid dreaming into their waking reality. Kidney also claims that one has the ability to completely alter their physical appearance through intense visualization whilst experiencing a lucid dream state. Though little scientific proof has been offered by Kidney, many followers of Grant have reported to edit their physical bodies to the extent of gaining a perfect, physically fit body overningt. In most cases, this would take years of hard work, dieting, and exercise in order to become physically fit. Kidney stresses that lucid dreaming is the best way to gain knowledge of any sort from the past, present, or future.
"while using a WILD technique to enter a lucid dream" Could someone explain or expand this please? Shantavira 18:55, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Apparently an acronym for "Wake-Initiation of Lucid Dreams": [1] (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Lucid_Dreaming:_Induction_Techniques) --Jim Henry 22:20, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"Scientific research in the 1950's found that these eye movements correspond to the direction in which the dreamer is "looking" in his/her dreamscape; extraordinarily, this apparently enabled trained lucid dreamers to communicate the content of their dreams as they were happening to researchers by using eye movement signals."
I wrote the above bit but I am not certain this research was first done in the 1950's or much later. Certainly research like this has taken place much more recently (since the 1980's), however I recall when I read Norman Malcolm's 1959 book Dreaming some years ago that it made reference to recent (i.e. 1950's) research of this kind. But I may be mistaken. If anyone knows better, please correct. Ben Finn 21:35, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
"Lucid dreaming" a misnomer? I've added this as it pops up quite often – perhaps Frederik van Eeden misunderstood the meaning of "lucid" in English. Also I found quite a few references stating that Frederik van Eeden was a psychiatrist. --Bruce1ee (Talk) 08:54, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Psychosomatics of lucid dreaming
I am a regular Lucid Dreamer, and an occasional victim of night terrors, and I was wondering if there is any evidence supporting the psychosomatic tendencies of some lucid dreamers. I know for a fact that I will be dreaming Lucidly, and I may hurt my self in the dream and when I finally actually awake the injures are sustained in reality. I know some may think this is an effect of false awakening, but if that is so then I’ve been continually dream for the past 19 years, as I’ve never had a false awakening. If there is any evidence of this out there, I think it would make an interesting addition to the article.
Iorek 16:46, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
Iorek, I'm very interested to hear your story. I'm also a lucid dreamer, and if what you say is true then I'll be doing experiments on that very soon here.--Krevency 07:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ive had very vivd lucid dreams where i was beaten severly, i awoke and had sustained a broken arm, and my body was buised all over. My docter didnt belife that it had happend to me in a dream, and a criminal investigation against my parents followed. No evidence was found the the investigation ended, rulling that i suffered from phsycosomaitic issues as well as mild parinoid shizophrenia.Iorek
About "Dreaming about knowing you're dreaming"
Wow. I didn't seriously think people were still skeptical about lucid dreaming.
I'd like to answer anyone's question about, "How do you know you're not just dreaming about being lucid?"
Firstly, I have had a couple of dreams I can remember where I was just dreaming about lucid dreaming. That was a little strange, but it's only happened a couple of times.
Normally, in a lucid dream, I go, "Oh, I'm dreaming. What was it that I was planning on doing next time I had a lucid dream?" During this time I can remember my previous waking day. I can remember waking life as well as I can right now, in fact.
I mean, if you want to say that someone was just dreaming lucidity during a dream, you might as well question your awareness right now. I'm only as confident that I've had hundreds of lucid dreams as I am confident that I've had thousands of awake days.
I mean, where does the skepticism end? --Krevency 07:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)