Talk:List of web comics
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This page was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion, and the consensus was to keep: see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of web comics
List of web comics proposed inclusion guidelines
Current proposed web comic inclusion guidelines can be found at Wikipedia:Web comics. Web comics that do not meet these guidelines may be at risk of removal from the list (and possibly from Wikipedia) in the future.
Given that not a single date or name of a creator appears in this list, I find the intro paragraph a bit confusing... -- Delirium 06:13 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Dates can most likely be acquired (Should we do it?). Though I was wondering that myself a while back... -- Pipian
I removed the following introductory paragraph, which could be reinstated if dates and cartoonist names are ever included in the article body. -- RossA 00:28, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
The dates shown after a name relate to the period during which the comic appeared.
There is usually a fair degree of accuracy about the starting date, but because of rights being transferred or the very gradual loss of appeal of a particular strip the termination date is often very uncertain.
The names shown refer to the originators of the character; many have continued to be created by others over time.
It is also to be noted that many of the characters appeared in both strip and book format as well as in other media.
Don't like the fact that numerical entries go before A. It's become commonplace in computer-sorted lists, but "real" encyclopedias don't do it. Lee M 05:08, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
BTW there is a temp page at Talk:List of web comics/temp/article -- User:Docu
- Hmmm. The current list has about 100 comics listed. Making a page with a hundred sections, where the content of most sections is just the section title... Do you mean to only list the comics for which there's already a Wiki-article, and move the content from the not-big-enough articles to the list page? -- Khym Chanur 06:10, Jan 5, 2004 (UTC)
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Looking for Hosers
I've recently started reading "GPF" and there was a cross-over between this and another comic named the "Hosers" in February 2000. However the latter appears to be unavailable (it used to live at http://www.hosers.org/ which is not responding): anyone know where to find it? Phil 12:29, Jan 14, 2004 (UTC)
- Hosers are still there, last comic appears to be 1/24/2003, site still semi-active, I'll try to determine the correct date range and add it to the list. The entry will look like this (the year on the comic looks off by one!):
- Hosers by Aric S. Campling and Lev Babiev 1999 March 22-2003 January 24? ( http://www.hosers.org/ )
- PS: cross-over with GPF is here http://www.hosers.org/archive/20000217.html Wikibob 23:24, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)
policy on non-existing comics?
MyTVcomic links to a yahoo group that has no comics and only 7 messages. Google of MyTVcomic finds only wikipedia and derived sites. Google groups and images each return nothing.
I suggest we move such dead links to Talk:List_of_web_comics/waiting_existence_proof.
Maybe we also need Talk:List_of_web_comics/existence_proof to store references to the proof we do find. Wikibob 23:24, 2004 Mar 2 (UTC)
Trivia
Oldest known web comic still running: Kevin and Kell details at List of web comics#K
- Actually, it's Doctor Fun... since 1993 and still going; it was the very first comic on the web. (And my favorite, incidentally.) Mindspillage 18:15, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)
List of comics to track down:
- Livingingreytown by Dave Kelly 2000 January 10-2002 January 12 ( http://www.livingingreytown.com/d/20000110.html ) hosted on keenspot, characters included the Devil Phil. Site has inconsistent dates on links and image URLs.
- When I am King by demian.5 ( http://www.demian5.com/ ) a graphic novel in 5 chapters, no text, semi-animated in 64 panels. Needs frames.
Wikibob 00:40, 2004 Mar 4
Getting example strips
I'm trying to get permission to use (under the FDL) samples from the most popular of these web comics. If you want you can help me by writing to the authors of strips and logging it here. Here's the email I use:
- Hi XY,
- I am one of the many, many people working on the Wikipedia encyclopedia (www.wikipedia.org). Maybe you've heard of it before; basically we're trying to collaboratively create an encyclopedia that can be freely copied and modified by everyone. I'm a great fan of webcomics, and I'm trying to make the articles about webcomics on Wikipedia richer by adding example artwork to each of them.
- We respect other people's copyrights, and we can only use images if they're under a free license or in the public domain, so I would like to ask you to "donate" one of your comic strips to Wikipedia under the GNU FDL. That means that you still get full credit for it, but others can copy and modify it as long as they retain that credit and make their modifications freely available as well ("copyleft"). That would of course only apply to this single image file.
- My favorite strip to use would probably be this one:
- http://xyz
- (insert note about why you think the strip is representative about the comic as a whole)
- Please let me know if you'd be willing to donate this strip, or any other, to the "creative commons", or if you have any reservations which I might be able to address.
- All best, and thanks for creating such a great comic in the first place,
- your name
People I've written to so far:
- Chris of Achewood
- Stephen Notley of Bob the Angry Flower
- Owen Dunne of "You Damn Kid!"
- Brian Clevinger of 8 Bit Theater
- Chris of Superosity
- R. Stevens of Diesel Sweeties
- Jeff of Wigu.com
- Mike of Penny Arcade
- D.C. of Ozy and Millie
- John Allison of Scary Go Round
- "Hard" of Sexy Losers
- Tatsuya of Sinfest
If you want to write to anyone else, please announce it here first so we avoid duplicate work. Feel free to use my example text.
So far I've got a positive response from Brian Clevinger of 8BT, no negative response yet. I intend to add the positive ones to the email text to sway other artists.—Eloquence 10:19, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)
- Good idea Eloquence, I've just emailed:
- Christopher Baldwin of Bruno
- with an slightly modified email. -Wikibob 23:08, 2004 Mar 6 (UTC)
list concerns
I'm becoming kinda concerned about this list. Are we just going to allow every 14-year-old with a webcomic to list their site here? Or is there going to be any standard? I mean, I don't even know half of the webcomics on the list and the new ones added I'd never be able to verify in a million years.
Reason being, a lot of webcomics (especially the small ones) would not be encyclopedic as a stand-alone article, but yet, we're writing the list as if an article should be created for all of these. What happens when a brand-new comic uses Wikipedia as a jumping point to generate traffic?
Just some thoughts. RadicalBender 13:55, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Maybe we should remove all red links, so that people aren't quite so tempted to make pages for every comic they come across. We should definitely keep them listed, as it is a "list of web comics", but we should only allow articles for notable comics - ones that are consistently mentioned within webcomic circles (Penny Arcade comes to mind here, as does Megatokyo), or that are very high in respected Top-Webcomics lists such as the Buzzcomix.net's top ten. PMC 10:07, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Have to agree, have started removing red links. Might have been me that did the wikifying (too much history to wade through!), when I was still wiki-learning. My intention was when I had spare time to expand the entries here with: author's name and approximate dates. If I find an existing article, I'll link to it.Wikibob 14:55, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)
If it doesn't deserve a stand-alone article, it doesn't deserve being listed here either. Lists are a way to categorize Wikipedia articles, they are not articles in themselves. See Wikipedia is not, #11, #12. You wouldn't have people on the List of painters who are not encyclopedic either. Without articles this is a link directory, which is not acceptable.
So don't unlink non-notable comics, just remove them.—Eloquence 15:07, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)
Which, in addition those with articles, should appear in this notable list? My tastes do not fit the usual webcomic reader, the ones I read daily are: Bruno, Bruno the Bandit, Scary go Round and Wigu.
The ones I recognise are:
Bruno by Christopher Baldwin Bruno the Bandit by Ian McDonald Chopping Block by Lee Adam Herold Diesel Sweeties by R. Stevens Freefall by Stanley Gene Catlow by Albert Temple Gneral Protection Fault by Geoffrey Darlington Goats by Jonathan Rosenberg Helen Kevin and Kell by Bill Holbrook Livingingreytown by Dave Kelly Megatokyo One over Zero Scary Go Round (previously Bobbins) by John Allison Sluggy Freelance by Pete Abrams Superosity User Friendly WIGU
But I see many marked as favourite on Belfry's list that could be just as notable to another reader. I just don't want to be the one that decides. Wikibob 16:55, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)
- Well, there are two options here. Either we define some criteria for inclusion now - Google hits, links, Alexa traffic ranking, being listed on some "top 100" page etc. - or we leave the links in. Removing pages arbitrarily will just mean that everyone keeps their favorite comics in the list. I think you should re-add the links until there are clear criteria for inclusion.—Eloquence 17:08, Mar 13, 2004 (UTC)
OK, proposal. This is two-fold. The most important goal here would be to prevent Wikipedia from helping to popularize new and unencyclopedic webcomics, right? So, let's try this:
- Any site with a domain and an Alexa ranking of, say, 250,000 or above (that should be enough to keep moderately-popular webcomics while eliminating chaff). Exceptions:
- Sites in transition (like to another domain name - e.g., Tsunami Channel, whose new domain name puts them at a ranking of about two million)
- New webcomics created by already established artists (e.g., Girly created by Josh Lesnick who created CuteWendy or if Piro ever puts Warmth online) - this would be determined by Alexa ranking of existing comic.
- One problem with this system is with Keenspace comics. Alexa treats all Keenspace subdomains equally, so they all have the same ranking. To weed out the chaff here, I recommend we go based on longevity, since over half of the Keenspace comics are effectively dead. The comic has to have been "active" (which needs defining) for more than a year and a half.
What do you think? Needs some revising. RadicalBender 17:46, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- A truly fair definition of "active" would require a heuristic taking into account gaps between updates, relative size of updates, comic size, vacation allowances, and filler postings.
- But that's too much work, so why not just go with raw comic count? Say, one per week, or about 70 over the proposed 18-month minimum lifespan. It's a simple metric, and also ensures that the comic has enough content for a bare-minimum description page. -- Cyrius 20:01, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Proposal looks good, I've done some Alexa ranks, and Keenspace won't be a problem as Alexa shows the % of the top 20 keenspace comics, and only 5-6 get an equivalent rank of 250,000.
See a full list of Alex-ified webcomic URLs is at User:Wikibob/todo; here are selected Alexa results (reach is 3 month average). Large numbers are the traffic rankings.
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=brunothebandit.com
brunothebandit.com: 168,242 reach is 9.8
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=genecatlow.com
genecatlow.com: 194,934 reach is 7.7
brunostrip.com: 378,875 reach is 3.1 10kcommotion.com: 311,432 scarygoround.com: 54,707 reach is 27.5 wigu.com: 67,348 reach is 21.5 sluggy.com: 16,496 reach is 96
keenspace.com: 5,796 reach is 170 users per million, of those: 17% go to sexyloser, so that's 20 users per million 6% go to elfonlyinn.keenspace.com, or 10 users per million
other keenspace destinations: flem.keenspace.com ~ 4% thedevilspanties.keenspace.com ~ 3% -- or 5 users per million techfox.keenspace.com ~ 3% utlt.keenspace.com ~ 2% -- or 3-4 users per million, approx 250,000 ranking
From these figures I would choose a ranking of 200,000 or a reach of 7.5 users per million. This knocks out Bruno (boohoo), but keeps Bruno the Bandit. I wouldn't argue with a lower ranking of 100,000 to keep the list smaller still. Of course, if a webcomic already has an article this is all moot. Wikibob 20:21, 2004 Mar 13 (UTC)
List restrictions
So, do we have an agreement about the inclusion guidelines, or what? -- Cyrius 03:46, Mar 23, 2004 (UTC)
- I'm fine with it. This should probably be extended into a separate article in the Wikipedia: namespace (like, for now Wikipedia:Web comics) so that the rules also apply to the creation of articles (as webcomics come up a lot on VfD). RADICALBENDER★ 22:51, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- In fact, I think I'll just do it myself. :) RADICALBENDER★ 22:54, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Category
This list should be transformed into the already existing, but incomplete Category:Web comics - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 16:31, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)
Deletion of un-wikilinked entries
This is probably going to make me unpopular, but so be it. I deleted all entries that did not link to articles. And yes, that included comics I read and like. Wikipedia is not a links repository, and the inclusion of external links to obscure webcomics without articles bordered on Wikispam. It'd gotten so bad that one of the submitters at Comixpedia simply assumed when looking at it that that was what the article was for. I didn't bother checking Alexia rankings. I figure that's a criterion for getting an article—and if somebody does create an article for any of the deleted entries and re-adds the entry, great—but until then it shouldn't be here.
I considered deleting all external links too, but decided that it wasn't worth it after dropping the un-wikilinked ones. - Gwalla 05:01, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Most of the comics that got tossed deserved it, but there's some that seem to have been collateral damage. I may re-add the ones I'm familiar with after writing stubs for them to link to. -- Cyrius|✎ 05:20, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- That'd be great! Yeah, there were definitely some entries I deleted that deserve articles, but I figured that if drastic action wasn't taken it'd never get fixed—nobody is going to go entry-by-entry, checking Alexa rankings for each comic. I could've wikilinked the ones I recognized as important, but I thought I might be accused of favoritism so I didn't. - Gwalla 17:57, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Although Bruno [1] (http://www.brunostrip.com) has an Alexa ranking way below the suggested mininum, it did have a lengthy crossover with Helen, Sweetheart of the Internet, which is now syndicated in actual printed newspapers. A piece of trivia like that probably makes it notable enough to include. -Sean Curtin 05:54, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I think Bruno may have been explicitly mentioned as a comic justifying an exception to the traffic-based guidelines. -- Cyrius|✎ 06:02, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Hmm...it looks like my mass-deletion wasn't as effective as I'd hoped. People aren't adding entires that are just external links with no wikilinks to articles—they're adding entries that are just external links with wikilinks to nonexistent articles that they have no intention of writing and that will probably never get written. Argh. - — G↭a⇅a | Talk 20:49, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I've removed all of the red links, even to ones I've personally heard of or read. Old list is still in history [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=List_of_web_comics&oldid=4147793) so if someone wants to created articles for all of the removed entries they're welcome to do so... -Sean Curtin 01:54, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I don't think entries should be deleted based on the criterion that there is not a article attached to them. There are a few reasons. First, other less biased critera has been created to able a decision to be made on weather or not a comic should be included or not. This should be followed. If one doesn't feel like checking if a comic meets the critera let it be untill another does. Second, leaving in notable comics that don't have articles could inspire another wikipedian to create articles for them. Third, doing so makes the list biased, arbitrary & incomplete. ZaQ 23:05, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Excellent points, I used to feel the same way, but I realized that this list needs to be pruned or else it will be useless due to sheer length. If someone feels that a webcomic deserves inclusion, all they have to do is create a stub article. Gamaliel 14:04, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with Gamaliel. The criteria should be for determining whether a given comic deserves an article, and the one criterion for inclusion in the list should be the existence of an article. Having to write a stub doesn't seem like too onerous a requirement — Gwalla | Talk 00:33, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Rethinking this
When this article was on VFD, the policy of removing entries for comics without articles was criticized as being somewhat anti-wiki. And, well, I can kind of see the point there. However, I still think there needs to be some way of discouraging people from using the list for promotion. How about allowing articleless entries, but removing external links? — Gwalla | Talk 01:00, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I don't see the point of eliminating external links. It would make the list less useful while doing little to achieve a goal (discouraging promotion) that really isn't that significant.
- I'm not sure if this sort of idea is kosher on wikipedia, but perhaps 2 lists? One for comics with articles, one for comics without. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel
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Bruno and Christopher Baldwin
For a long time I felt Bruno and Christopher Baldwin deserved an article, and here's my first attempt. It's a single article for Christopher Baldwin for now with a Bruno redirect. I'm no writer so it needs care and attention. Also it needs mention of crossovers with other well-known webcomics, and maybe a paragraph on the life stages Bruno herself has passed through. My emailed request to use an excerpt of the comic from March has had no reply.
As to what criteria should be used for inclusion, I'm now of the opinion that only existing articles should be here, or more strongly, that once the list has been converted to categories and any information (dates and external links) saved into the respective articles, then the list is not needed. So I think it's good what Sean Curtis did, it finally prodded me to write something. -Wikibob | Talk 00:30, 2004 Jun 26 (UTC)
Toon inclusion query
I came across the Wikipedia entry on webcomics and would like to include "PC Weenies" as part of the list. While traffic is not as high as some of the more visible cartoons (Penny Arcade, PvP), it should be important to note that the cartoon has been running from 1998 onwards and has a generally large following. It's appeared on CNet (do a search on their site) and is currently published in print by EE Times, the largest electrical engineering magazine in the world. The site is currently being transitioned (if you visit the site now), but it should be up on July 26th. Kms007 13:42, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- It seems to be generally believed that this list should only contain comics that already have Wikipedia articles about them -- if you feel the comic deserves an article (which it probably does) then by all means write one about it! And *then* add it to the list. :-) Aris Katsaris 13:48, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, Aris. A wikipage for Pcweenies has now been created. Kms007 15:17, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Is the title of the comic "Pcweenies", "PC Weenies", or "The PC Weenies"? — Gwalla | Talk 16:42, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It's "The PC Weenies". Sorry about that. Should I change the wikipedia entry to reflect that? Kms007 21:14, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Corrected it. Aris Katsaris 21:26, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Should this article go the way of the dodo?
I'm starting to think that this list is more trouble than it's worth. The information contained here is available elsewhere in Wikipedia: the start and end dates and links are (or should be) in the individual comics' articles, and the short description of webcomics duplicates material in the web comic article and the summary of Category:web comics. The actual listing can be handled by the category (anything that goes here should be in the category anyway), which has the additional advantage that a comic can only be added to the category if it has an article, saving editing time.
So, I propose that all of the comics listed here have the category link added if they don't already have it, the start/end dates be added to the appropriate articles if necessary, and this article be turned into a redirect to web comic or Category:web comics. Thoughts? — Gwalla | Talk 22:14, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I don't think we should abandon this list. It has its uses and provides more information at a glance than the category list. Of course, I have no objection to the web comics category, but I don't see why they can't coexist and compliment each other. Gamaliel 22:23, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- The only things the category lacks are artist names, start/end dates, and external links. All are (or should be) in each comic's article. I'm not sure what this article really adds. Furthermore, the external links seem to act as an invitation for webcomic wikispam. — Gwalla | Talk 20:45, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- +Gwalla. This is one of those lists that has been eclipsed by categories. - DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:08, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
Well, I just went through and made sure that all of the start and end dates listed here are in the appropriate articles. I'm going to go ahead and put this page on VFD, and let the chips fall where they may. — Gwalla | Talk 01:57, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- This article is able to summarize information in a way categories can't, and even if its duplicated in other articles, there is no other article with such a good set of basic information. If its "more trouble than its worth", take a break from editing it, its certianly not more trouble than its worth to people reading wikipedia. Categories are a way to help organization of the 'pedia, not a replacement for lists. —siroχo 21:41, Aug 28, 2004 (UTC)
sham wikipedia articles
the comic "Catena" links to a wikipedia article that is completly unrelated to the comic. as such, it seems to be violating the "Webcomics without a Wikipedia article will be removed from the list" criteria.
- I agree. It's gone. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel Missing image
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White Ninja
I want to add White Ninja comic (http://www.whiteninjacomics.com/comics.shtml) but I don't know the date it started. Fr3d 17:34, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- If you don't know the start date, I don't see why you can't add it as long as there's a wikipedia article about that comic. [[User:Gamaliel|Gamaliel Missing image
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PowerPuff Girls Doujinshi
Doesn't have an article of its own - just a footnote in the main Powerpuff Girls article. Lee M 02:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- It's more complicated than that. See Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Powerpuff Girls Doujinshi and the histories of Powerpuff Girls Doujinshi (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Powerpuff_Girls_Doujinshi&redirect=no) and PowerPuff Girls Doujinshi (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=PowerPuff_Girls_Doujinshi&redirect=no) (note different capitalization) for the full story. Bo Lindbergh 04:53, 2005 Jun 8 (UTC)