Talk:List of Roman Emperors

i dont know this info so some one else will have to do it. But thsi page does nto say abut Caesers and Augustuses and all that messy business if your tryig to make a table of it :-s - fonzy

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Re-writing the Gordian Dynasty: justification.

The history of this bit of the third century was confused when I found it. What actually happened is as followed:

1) Maximinus Thrax siezed the throne. He was basically a thug, did horrible things to the Senate, tortured kittens, yada yada yada.

2) Outraged, Gordian I was drafted into seeking the emperorship. As he was about 79, he insisted that his son also be made emperor. So we should treat their reign as one entry -- can't talk about the one without the other.

3) Gordian II is killed; father commits suicide out of grief for his son.

4) The Senate, understandably nervous about this sudden loss of leadership, elects Pupienus and Balbinus as Co-Emperors. Again, we should treat their reign as one entry -- can't talk about the one without the other.

5) Maximinus Thrax is murdered by his own men. Maybe there's some folk in the Roman army who don't like to watch kittens being tortured. ;-)

6) The Pretorian Guard (need to write an article about this power behind the Imperial throne), realize that the threat of Maximinus is past, see this as their opportunity to sieze power, & kill Balbinus & Pupienus Maximus. The ensuing intrigue results with the young Gordian III as Emperor.

I've combined the entries for Gordian I & II into one. The entry for Gordian II needs to be deleted. If people agree with me. llywrch 02:29 Nov 9, 2002 (UTC)

I disagree. Couldn't we make Gordian II a #REDIRECT to Gordian I? This would allow linking to G II from other articles. -- JeLuF 08:05 Nov 9, 2002 (UTC)

Well, I've checked all of the pages that link to the Gordian II, & relinked them to the Gordian I page. There shouldn't be any links to G II. llywrch 01:40 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)

That sounds like a bad way to work. IF someone now decides to take the two apart again, we have all kinds of links going to the wrong place. Changing 'Gordian II' to a redirect does the same thing, but with less work, less problems if things are changed back, and works for future links as well as past ones. In fact I'm tempted to undo those relinks, but there's so much more to do here... - Andre Engels 12:19 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)

Actually, all I've done is:

1) Rewritten the Gordian I article,

2) redirected the links,

3) stated my reasons here. And defended them.

I've not touched the Gordian II page, merely asked that it be deleted. If the consensus is that I'm wrong about this, all that needs to be done is to move the links back. (Although I'd like an explanation why I'm wrong about this.) -- llywrch 18:38 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)

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One more note: since I'm probably breaking this page for all of the translators, allow me to offer my apologies. But as a when a broken sword is reforged becomes stronger, so as I fix this page of its errors it will become more useful for you to transport into your native tongue. llywrch 03:38 Nov 9, 2002 (UTC)

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Since Julius Caesar has been given mention, should earlier despots of similar natures be listed?

Strictly speaking, Julius Caesar should not be added to this list. And if his presence on his list is seen as an allowance to add other figures from Roman Republican History (e.g., Pompey, Crassus, etc.) then he should be removed.

However, it is a very wide-spead misconception that Caesar was an emperor: in many languages the word for "Emperor" is derived from his name (e.g., German Kaisar, Russian Czar). Therefore he is a borderline case, many people would come to this entry looking for him, & thus he needs some kind of mention here. -- llywrch 02:47 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)

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Moved the following contribution from the article body:

technically all were princepts untill hadrian and not emperors

This is a list of Emperors, not of their actual titles (which varied greatly over the centuries, & does need documentation somewhere). --llywrch 16:34 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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Reversion of this article: justification.

A few days ago, this was a simple, clean list of individuals. Perhaps not all of the names were correct, or in the correct form -- but a reader could, with a glance, find the Emperor ashe/he wanted, click onthe link & access the article.

Then it became a slab of text dificult to read.

Because of this unfriendly look, I'm reverting it. And I'll be asking some of the other folks who contribute to Roman topics to discuss this change. Is this really what we want this article to look like? -- llywrch 03:39, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I cannot say that I agree. In the first place, I don't agree that my edit made the article difficult to read; no more than a moment or two is necessary to familiarise oneself with the format, which is explained earlier in the document. The names are in Latin, yes, but the customary names of the individuals are clearly labeled after the more correct names. Furthermore, the list as I rewrote it traced the history of the imperial dignity in a more accurate and more orderly manner, indicating lesser co-emperors, full colleagues in the Tetrarchy, and later dynastic divisions between East and West (especially after the deaths of Constantine and Theodosius).

In the second place, I feel that the overview I wrote to explain the Roman conception of the emperor and the titles and ranks associated with it was a much-needed addition to a list which made no effort to explain what precisely a Roman emperor was (it certainly was not a modern monarchical emperor, at least not until the Dominate).

You have proposed that this be discussed amongst those who contribute to Roman topics. I am willing to defer to just such a discussion; however, since the discussion is whether or not "we" want to keep the simplistic document or my more detailed version, I am reverting the document to my version for the present time so that the contributors can see it and judge it as it is. -- Publius, 05 Dec. 2003

The rewrite is interesting, but yes, way too verbose. Full titles are good detail for individual articles, but very bad for list lookup speed, which is the main purpose of the indexes that WP calls lists for historical reasons. Also, we like to keep the textual headers of lists short and sweet, putting the detailed explanations in separate articles (Roman Emperor would be a sensible choice, instead of having it be a redir). The rewrite is a sort of hybrid list/narrative that is unique, and worth keeping, but as a distinct article - call it Narrative of Roman Emperors or maybe rework as Timeline of Roman Emperors. Go to the bare list to find "Consta-something", go to the timeline to understand the succession of emperors better than by piecing together from a half-dozen individual emperor articles. Stan 04:57, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I rather like this suggestion, which certainly solves the problem, in my opinion. llywrch, what do you think of using the "complicated" text for Roman Emperor and leaving the list in the "simple" version? A few more explanatory notes in the "complicated" narrative and it could be altered to focus more strongly on titular and dynastic developments, leaving the simple chronological order and contemporary names to the "simple" list. Publius

Hmm...like Stan, I kind of like the new page, but I think it's far too complicated for the list page. Some sort of separate article might be a good idea, although a bit odd to have two articles with such similar content. An alternative would be to remove the introduction to a "Roman Emperor" article. Remove the names, which are more appropriately given on each individual Emperor's page, but leave the clearer listing of co-emperors. john 05:35, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I like the idea of adding the new stuff to Roman Emperor - there is a similar Roman dictator article already. Adam Bishop 06:42, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Incidentally, Adam, if the "complicated" version I wrote (now found at Roman Emperor) seems similar to Roman dictator, that's probably because I wrote that article, too. Publius

The more complicated version is a lot harder to use. The paragraphs added should be moved somewhere else, and this should stay as a simple list. Maximus Rex 06:45, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I agree with the general comments above. One one hand, the list stop being a list and its difficult reading - the last version was a lot more useful. On the other Publius had a lot of work and added an extremely nice overview that its a pity to loose. I suggest that overview and the discussion of the titles should go to Roman emperor - not as a redirect - but an article on his own. In this way the verbose parts, as well as the distinction between dinastic and non-dynastic could be saved and given the proper attention, and the list remains a practical thing to use. Curiously, i used this idea (previous to see this discussion) in the new Roman usurper and List of Roman usurpers. Muriel Victoria 07:55, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The consensus appears to be that the "complicated" list would be better as Roman Emperor, so I have provisionally placed it there and reverted to the "simple" list. Publius

Wow. If only all disagreements on WP could be handled so amiably & maturely. My thanks to all. -- llywrch 17:28, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Contents

1 Tables 2 The look of capitals 3 Notes 4 Byzantium

Tables

I suppose I overreacted by completely reverting JohnArmagh's recent additions, with everything organized into tables. However, I feel that these tables, while somewhat more aesthetically pleasing at the moment with borders, are unhelpful and do not improve the look of the article. I don't think it is necessary to include so much information here, since it is just a list - you can find their real names and regnal names etc. in the articles themselves. It also just repeats the more detailed information on the Roman Emperor page, which looks better without tables, in my opinion (it also makes this article obsolete, but we already discussed that months ago, see above). Hopefully other editors interested in this page can express their opinions as well, for or against. Adam Bishop 19:13, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

My intention has been to incorporate something of the flavour of the subject into the list, so that it is more than a mere list of names and dates: whilst retaining the simple list to the left, with a little more in-depth to the right.

The layout, of course, is something I would like to get to meet two criteria:-

a) it is in a format which most readers would like to see and
b) that the format is consistent (or forms a precedence for consistency).

Whilst the detail to the right of such a table may largely be covered in the biographical details of the subject, this per se does not facilitate the advantage of a table format, i.e. at-a-glance comparison, between items in the table, of selected details.

The comments of Adam Bishop are, as usually gratefully received, and I do invite comments from anyone else with an opinion.

--JohnArmagh 20:09, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I didn't like the table format either - we have articles on all these guys, with plenty of room for specialists' details like how their names might appear on coins or inscriptions. The purpose of the list is to find a particular one when given sketchy info for which computerized searching is useless ("shortly after Marcus Aurelius", or "the fourth emperor, N-something I think". Each list entry needs at most years (unlinked imho), and a short phrase "thumbnailing" the emperor. The table does have some desirable info, but let's get the content into the articles instead, where it's also convenient to cite the references for the info (citations and tables don't play nice together). Another possibility is to have two separate articles, one a plain list and the other tableized - feasible since the basic data isn't likely to change much anymore. :-) Stan 20:18, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

BTW, really useful additional tables/lists would be ones sorted by common name, gens, and cognomen. Stan 20:21, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Seems I can't win - within seconds of posting an additional Simplified list of Emperors it is listed for Votes for Deletion. --JohnArmagh 05:49, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sorry about that - there are some avid deletionists who list on VfD without bothering to learn why the article was created. Often if I create something that looks like a dup, I'll immediately add a note to the talk page explaining the situation and xrefing over to the other article - even the most aggressive of deleters will take a moment to look at the talk page. The other way to go is to put it under your user page and move later. Don't worry, we'll get this all sorted out, and every bit of content is saved in history, even for deleted articles, so nothing will be lost. Stan 16:28, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Do you want my frank opinion about this new look? One word: Ugh.

I know, that's a cruel way to express it -- & also unhelpful -- but I like the old list for more than the simple reason that I'm used to it. These reasons include:

1. Simplicity. The emperor's name was quickly findable, with a few quick pointers of the dates of his reign, the dynasty he was part of, & any significant usurpers. And my understanding is that this list serves as a means to find the ruler & follow the relevant link -- not to overwhelm the reader with detail. And visible or invisible, I just don't like this table.
2. Definition of dynasties. The earlier version followed more closely the scholarly groupings of dynasties. There is no "'Later Claudian' Dynasty" -- it's all part of the Principate or Julio-Claudian dynasty. And although the term "Illyrian Emperors" can be found, it assumes that there is more of a connection between them than the fact one died & was followed by another; & if this grouping is admitted, then should we not include Diocletian & Constantius Chlorus, both of whom were born in Illyria, & get rid of the "Tetrarchy"? If these grouping don't work, could we have an explanation why?
3. Treatment of Usurpers & Break-away Regions. The ancient Romans didn't consider many of these usurpers the equal of recognized Emperors, any more than a modern US citizen might consider Jefferson Davis the equal of any elected US president or a UK citizen would consider Bonnie Prince Charlie or the Old Pretender the equal of any British King or Queen. We've handled some of these cases with a "See also" down at the bottom, & many of the rest with a note explaining that so-&-so also claimed the throne.

If more information about individual rulers are needed, I'd like to see a justification. As I said above, the earlier list worked for me. -- llywrch 04:30, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK - it is all down to a matter of taste and preference - which could go on forever without agreement.

Therefore then if you wish to revert, please do so - I will not interfere further.

I have kept the detailed version on my own user sub-page for my own information and should anyone feel they wish to look at it at any point.

The way I see it, what I add to Wikipedia is a contribution for future generations. Of course it is then up to them whether they wish to remove it.

--JohnArmagh 07:32, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I rather like the 'new' look. It is still possible to quickly find an emperor (date and common name) and the extra information is very usefull. For instance if some one wanted to look op information about a name he found on a coin the old list wouldn't have been very helpfull but the new list will quickly point him to the right article. Further the tabled look is easy on the eye and the screen seems very uncluttered. For what it's worth it gets my vote :)

The look of capitals

The use of capitals is consistent with how Latin was written, but large amounts of upper-case text looks like SHOUTING and is UGLY. How about the use of elegant SMALL CAPS? EGO EXISTIMO SERMONEM LATINVM SIC PVLCHRIOREM ESSE.

Those emperors' names also look bad with the justified alignment pulling them apart. Wouldn't left alignment be better? — Chameleon Main/Talk/Images 10:21, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As you correctly surmise my choice of lettering in the Latin was deliberate (despite the modern-day interpretation of capitals imitating a raised voice) - the fact that the writing of the time was all in capitals (majuscule) as miniscule had not yet been invented.

I had also intended to use • instead of spaces to separate the words however that had a nasty effect on the column/page widths so I had to regretfully abandon that idea.

I was considering changing the capitals to small capitals whilst I was compiling the list, but I am glad that I refrained from so doing, thus allowing comments on the matter to be raised.

The article is currently listed for Votes for Deletion. If the article is not deleted then it will be worth my while reducing size of the capital text, which I will then implement.

--JohnArmagh 15:13, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Notes

Wasn't Caesar Augustus murdered by his wife (or so it says in I Claudius) and if he was, shouldnt it be in the notes section of the table GingerM

Tacitus (who is usually reliable) only reports it as a suspicion, Dio Cassius reports it as a rumour, and it's absent from the account of Suetonius, so it has little credibility. The reports in the articles Caesar Augustus and Livia should be enough; I don't think it needs to be mentioned here. —Charles P. ^(Mirv) 18:18, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

On the name at birth for Gordian II is it supposed to say Narcys Antonius Gordianus because on the Gordian I page it says his son was called Marcus Antonius Gordianus. GingerM

Byzantium

Why is there such a stigma attached to the rightful heirs of Rome? If we're going to include the Britannic and Gallic Empires, the list should continue until 1453(61). -Chris5369 19:24, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well we already have a separate list for them. Adam Bishop 06:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Seems unneccessary. Make that a redirect to here. -Chris5369 17:10, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why? Despite their own beliefs (and apparently some current beliefs), it's a completely different empire. Adam Bishop 00:08, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And you're basing this on? -Chris5369 06:07, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, my own knowledge of the Byzantine Empire I suppose. We even have a whole other article for it, because, like, it's a whole other thing. Why not just stick it at the end of the Roman Empire article? Adam Bishop 06:12, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Frankly, I think we ought to remove those Emperors from this list, even though the argument could be made that they were technically usurpers. But it is a common practice to exclude the Byzantine Emperors from the list of Roman Emperors; it most likely arose from an ancient mistrust in Western Europe with the surviving half of the Empire. The disagreement, however, is over just where to draw the line: state that Diocletian was the first Byzantine emperor? Or would it be Theodoius the Great? Would the last Roman Emperor be Alexander Severus? Some historical accounts assume so. Some accounts end with Constantine the Great, & others end with Romulus Augustulus.

Their choices all depend on just which version of the Roman Empire the authors want to look at: the institutions evolved & changed over the centuries. The princeps of Augustus' time was not the emperor of Severus' time, nor was it the Augustus of Constantine I's time, nor the basilleus of the Byzantine Empire. -- llywrch 19:34, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well said. My point has been, if we are to include these rebel/sucessor states, then why not Constantinople? We list Romulus Augustulus (weak claim at best), but not Zeno, Leo, or Justinian. The Empire evolved, people shouldn't try to deny it. -Chris5369 22:55, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is less useful for readers to have only one list. At the same time, I think Adam is simply wrong that the eastern Empire was "a whole different empire." At least until 1204, there was full continuity between the old Roman Empire and the eastern Empire. That is not to say that the empire did not drastically change, but there was still continuity. That said, my preference would be to have our lists overlap. This list can give eastern emperors up through Zeno, noting that the list of eastern emperors continues until 1453 and is at List of Byzantine emperors. That list should start with Constantine, and note that it is listing only eastern emperors, and that western emperors continued until 476. Also, the idea that the list of barbarian kings of Italy is a continuation of Roman emperors seems wrong - Odoacer and the Ostrogoths both recognized the (theoretical) authority of the Emperor in Constantinople. It wasn't until the Lombards that you have kings of Italy who do not recognize the suzerainty of "Rome." Rome itself continued to acknowledge the eastern emperors as their sovereign until the 8th century, sort of at least...it's entirely too complicated, isn't it? john k 00:28, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

History, and human affairs in general, are seldom simple affairs. ;) -Chris5369 03:50, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

John, isn't that what we have with the lists now? I'm saying we should keep it like that. By the way, Decius has also suggested moving the Byzantine Empire article to Eastern Roman Empire, see Talk:Byzantine Empire if you are interested in a similar topic. (I don't know why I'm getting so flustered over these things, so I apologize for seeming so annoyed both there and here.) Adam Bishop 04:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the list is basically like that, although I wonder why the eastern emperors from 395 to 491 are listed at the bottom as an afterthought. I noticed the Byzantine Empire thing on my watchlist already, you'll see. john k 04:35, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Whether anybody wants to admit or not, the problem (calling it Roman Empire vs calling it Byzantine) stems from the fact that western historians, falling under the influence of the Catholic church (directly or indirectly), began to use the term Byzantine (and have popularized it well) as a way of not recognizing the eastern Roman Empire as a Roman Empire, though objectively speaking, the Empire was a Roman Empire, as it accurately called itself. Whether people realize it or not, calling it Byzantine is a way of bowing your head to the conceits of an antiquated Catholic church. Decius 05:14, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

And I'm not sure I see your point. English is full of words whose origins are less than honorable, or whose meanings have radically changed over the centuries. Trying to remove these words because of some idea fossilized inside of them can be futile -- & it is in this case.

But I'll happily concede this point to you if you first convince the entire US Conservative movement to stop treating "Liberal" as if it something bad, because doing so promotes autocracy over freedom. The Latin liber (whence the word "Liberal") is Latin for "free", "unrestricted", "outspoken", so by your reasoning every time Rush Limbaugh & his ilk rant against Liberals, they are ranting against freedom. -- llywrch 05:37, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nope. I'm just referring to this one case, not the other rough examples that are not parallel examples. If you like contemporary examples, here is one for you: African-Americans were formerly officially referred to as "Negroes", but now we refer to them as African-Americans (in the United States). "Byzantine" is a derogatory term, just as "nigger" and "negro" is. It originally implied that one does not recognize the Roman heritage of the Empire; also, by referring to the empire by the old pagan name of the city (rather than Constantinople), there is an implication of paganism or loose religion. Decius 05:51, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Negro" is an obsolete word, one which I haven't heard since I was a kid, many years ago; & it was never considered in any way as offensive as "nigger." As for your claim that "Byzantine" is equally as derogatory, you seem to be the only person to hold this POV. A search on Google with the words "Byzantine" & "derogatory" failed to turn up a single statement that "Byzantine" is derogatory. (The 2 words together return a number of hits, but based on Google's algorhythm of ranking results by the proximity of the 2 words, I'd expect this statement to have appeared in the first few pages of results if there were others who expressed this opinion.)

I'm sorry that the word "Byzantine" offends you, but it is undeniably part of the English language, & is used primarily to neutrally connote a specific period, place & people. Your claims that it is "derogatory", & that it "conceits of an antiquated Catholic church" increasingly appear to be based on your own personal beliefs. And your statement about the Catholic church is offensive, & does not help your argument. -- llywrch 22:07, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If I may I'd like to stick my oar in. Firstly, as a practicing Roman Catholic myself I personally don't find offence in the references to the 'catholic church' (though I perceive that there are those who would). Secondly, the term Byzantine is the generally accepted nomenclature for the empire centred on the city of Byzantium in the same way as Roman is the accepted term for the empire centred on Rome. The name Byzantium itself, as far as can be ascertained had no derogatory origin - it is thought to be derived from the 7thC BCE Greek founder of the city, Buzas of Megara. No more offence could be taken at the term Byzantine in its historical context than could be so inferred by using the word Vandal for the Germanic peoples of Dark Age Europe and North Africa merely on the basis of the current usage of the word vandal; likewise one does not refrain from using the word frog when referring to that amphibian merely because that word is in use as a derogatory term for a French person. --JohnArmagh 22:56, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not going to extensively beat out this debate further in Wikipedia for the time being, but I anticipated the comparison to Rome, which is not quite the same thing: the name of Rome was not ceremoniously changed, it remained Rome. On the other hand, the old Thracian name Byzantion (Byzantium in Latin) was officially changed to Nova Roma, then later popularly changed to Constantinople, and this new name was also symbolic of the new Christian era, and also of the birth of the Eastern Roman Empire. And the fact remains that using the old name for the city to apply to the Empire is implying (for most people, subconsciously) paganism, and overtly implying that the Empire is somehow not Roman. Decius 00:36, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't know where you get that from - "Byzantine" implies Eastern Orthodoxy to me. I suspect that, since so many people use "Byzantium" to refer to the Empire rather than for the ancient city (as I noticed when I once fixed all the links to point to the right places), hardly anyone consciously or subconsciously links "Byzantium" to "paganism." Adam Bishop 02:03, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, this is all getting a bit silly. Decius - could you please point to a source that says that the term Byzantine is offensive because it suggests they were Pagans? If you can't, then you are conducting original research, which is not allowed in wikipedia. john k 02:12, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)