Talk:Leonardo da Vinci
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Template:Oldpeerreview This is the article of the week for the Wikipedia:WikiProject Fact and Reference Check, which aims to add references to Wikipedia articles 1. As such, I've been adding some refs to books via the Google Print service. Two errors found so far2:
Note format
- Note 1: da Vinci's employment with Ludovico Sforza commenced in 1478, not 1482 as previously stated. [1] (http://print.google.com/print?id=qnLeXBbTyvYC&pg=33&sig=Oy79Vv2KPORO67j5Fjbohrksn-M)
- Note 2: da Vinci's father's occupation was wrongly stated, according to [2] (http://print.google.com/print?id=whGpOhDi_ioC&pg=19&sig=WBlB5YYOHkVWOLiJfYv1RwF0YIw)
--Neoconned 06:33, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Leonardo appears to never have had intimate relations with women and was once anonymously accused of homosexual contact with a 17 year old model, but considering that the same was said of Michelangelo and of other artists too, this seems to be more a popular legend than a fact, originated perhaps because of detailed frequent paintings or sculpting of naked men.
What was said of Michelangelo? That he didn't have relations with women and that he was anonymously accused of homosexual relations? What exactly is being dismissed as legend here? I tried a different phrasing. --AxelBoldt
From the main page:
- It is been proven that he is not homosexual at all.
Lacking more information about this proof, I removed this sentence. AxelBoldt
Seeing Zoe's deletion about the unfinished monumental horse in Milan, perhaps it would be a good idea to list da Vinci's accomplishments, separated into completed & proposed. (da Vinci had a long list of incomplete projects, which suggest to me that he had ADD. -- llywrch
EH? I didn't delete anything about the horse, it's still there. -- Zoe
- Er, well, when I was looking at the history of the article to see what you changed, I thought I saw that you deleted that paragraph. I looked again: it is in the current version. Sorry for the mistake. -- llywrch
Does anybody know by whom and when da Vinci's portrait was drawn? AxelBoldt 21:38 20 Jun 2003 (UTC)
In 1502 Leonardo da Vinci produced a drawing of a single span 720-foot (240 m) bridge
- Erm, which is it? 720' or 240m? The units don't match up. DanKeshet
Disambiguation lunacy
Fair dinkum, this disambiguation mania has got to stop. It is utterly riduiculous for us to walk around pretending we are making a real encyclopedia when we do stupid 5th-grade stuff like starting an entry on someone of the stature of Leonardo by pointing to a bloody cartoon character, of all things.
Sure, have a page at Leonardo da Vinci (disambiguation) if that seems justified. But in this case there are three good reasons not to go into silly mode.
- (a): The original Leoanardo is vastly more famous and more important than any cartoon character. (Lest you say "what about Mickey Mouse", remember that even Mickey has only been famous for less than a century, and can reasonably be expected to become less famous over time - a proces that has already started. Leonardo has been famous for vastly longer, and can reasonably be expected to still be famous long after Mickey Mouse is just a footnote to history, and the Ninja Turtles are utterly forgotten.)
- (b) The original Leoanardo is indeed the original - i.e., this Leonardo is the one that the others are named after.
- (c): No reasonable person would expect to find a mutant ninja turtle here at this page. Least surprise rule, remember?
Sorry for the rant, but there has been quite a bit of this absurd nonsense lately, and I just spat the dummy. Tannin 00:57, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The original Leonardo is vastly more famous to you and me. To every user? I think not. A "reasonable person" might expect to find the turtle here, if they were 10 years old (as a portion of our users are). Not only that, but I fail to see how the article is harmed by a mild, inobtrusive notice. I agree that the artist is by far the more important; that's why he deserves the page Leonardo while others are relegated to Leonardo (description). However, people do use Wikipedia for stuff other than fine art. Meelar 01:04, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Sure. Some people are lamentably ill-educated (something for which television, and American television in particular can take a great deal of the blame, by the way). However, it is not our task to pander to the ignorant by reducing the Wikipedia to the level of the lowest common denominator. Leonardo da Vinci's significance is far greater than that part of it attributable to his artistic talents alone.
The harm this trivial and obtrusive notice does is obvious: it distracts the reader's attention away from the subject matter of the article, and demeans and trivialises an important subject. If you absolutely must mention ninja turtles in this context, then at least have the decency to do so at the foot of the article where it is not so offensive. But in the hope that you will find this more acceptable, instead of moving the offending line this time, I'll simply delete it. Replace it at the foot if you insist (I argue against that too, but not terribly strongly) but I will continue to remove this silliness from the head of the article as often as necessary. Tannin 10:17, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I have re-added the notice.(with a slight change in phrasing). I do not find the argument against it to be persuasive.
- (1) importance - not a reason not to provide a disambig notice; they are for providing links to other possible meanings of the term searched for. The relative importance of the meanings is not a factor, the ambiguity is.
- (2) this is the original - also, not a factor, the point is to fix ambiguity, not to make any claim about derivative or original status.
- (3) wouldn't expect to find anything else at this page - at the page "Leonardo da Vinci", probably not; at the page "Leonardo"(which is a redirect here), absolutely - it's the name of more than one entity - that is, it's ambiguous.
- (4) distracts the reader's attention - in a small way, but it is a case of ambiguity, and for those who are looking for other Leonardos, it is more helpful than the mild distraction of a one line notice.
- (5) demeans and trivializes - no. possibly the existence of other entities(especially pop culture ones) with the name Leonardo "demeans and trivializes" him, but making it possible for someone to search for "Leonardo" and find what they are looking for does not. It is merely and simply a way of fixing a article title(Leonardo) which is ambiguous. It has nothing to do with fine art, cartoon characters, originality, importance or any of the above; it's just a disambiguation. JesseW 22:24, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- ? Why have that disambiguation notice here, where it does look absurd? If this is all about people being able to find the Ninja Turtle by typing in "Leonardo", which I agree is desirable, that'll be better achieved by turning the redirect Leonardo into a disambiguation page, surely. I just have, and am removing the notice from the top of this Featured article. (Do we want to look ridiculous? No? Well, then.) Most people looking for Leonardo da Vinci won't type merely "Leonardo", even if that was his full name--it's not how he's usually referred to--so the inconvenience of that leading to a disambig page is minimal.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 21:36, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Just want to note here that there is a Brazilian football (soccer) whose full name is Nascimento de Araujo Leonardo, but he is known simply as Leonardo. I added him to the disambig page... but maybe we should move the disambig page to Leonardo (disambiguation) and change the notice on this page to say
- This page is about the artist. For other entities named Leonardo, see Leonardo (disambiguation).
- Then we will not need to worry about the "stupidity" of "ninja turtle" appearing on this article, and the disambig message would become similiar to Raphael's. That just makes more sense. --Dryazan 19:00, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I think that solution is great, and I'm glad to see that it has been implemented. JesseW 06:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Just want to note here that there is a Brazilian football (soccer) whose full name is Nascimento de Araujo Leonardo, but he is known simply as Leonardo. I added him to the disambig page... but maybe we should move the disambig page to Leonardo (disambiguation) and change the notice on this page to say
sorting names in categories
Why is Leonardo da Vinci sorted in the categories by "Leonardo" and not "Vinci"? --Conti|✉ 21:56, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Leonardo is his name; Vinci is the place where he was born and not a surname in the common English sense. Fredrik | talk 23:41, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Da Vinci Code
Has anybody considered mentioning the book 'The Da Vinci Code' anywhere in the article? I'm not sure if it is appropriate, but maybe it should be written about? I'd like to know what parts of the book are truth, what parts are fiction, and what parts are exaggerated. -- [[User:Prodigaldruid|Prodigaldruid-Talk]] 13:20, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- I too would like to know what parts of the book were true/exaggerated/fiction--but this should be written up in the Da Vinci Code article, not the Da Vinci article. Antandrus 17:21, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Whereas it is agreed upon that Dan Brown's mention should mainly be in article on da vinci code, a fleeting mention is warranted here too and thus i have done the needful.
Just because you say it's agreed upon, doesn't mean it is. Clearly stated by Antandrus, the Davinci code and its "conjecture" should be in the Da Vinci Code writeup. Please, let's try and realize that Dan Brown's work of Fiction is probably the worst way to go about expanding Leonardo's life and works (aka. Non-fiction).Sp00n17 13:28, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While I don't think that extensive details about 'The Da Vinci Code' belong here, I do think that one sentence and a link would be appropriate. --Arcadian 01:46, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- The following is already in the page within the In fiction section
- "Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code revolves around a conspiracy which is hinted at in Leonardo's Last Supper."
- So, was there something else you wanted to add? I'm confused. --sp00n17 03:47, Jan 28, 2005 (UTC)
Maybe we should consider why every serious Leonardo scholar, and here I am thinking of Martin Kemp, Goldsheider and Frere have /consistently/ made no reference to any such membership of a Priory of Sion. Please let us distinguish myth from fact or wikipedia is useless.
Image caption
The picture at the top badly needs a more informative caption. Is it a self-portrait? Is it a portrait by someone else, and then by whom? What year is it from? Where can the original be found today? Fredrik | talk 11:48, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There are serious anachronisms that need to be addressed, or, at the very least explained either by use of description or sketch illustrations. It is impossible for example to say that Leonardo designed a helicopter centuries before Igor Sikorsky without giving at least in some way the impression that his 'aerial screw' resembles contemporary machines. Similarly by over-emphasising the link between Leonardo and robotics you are ascribing a hagiographic mythology that is in no way compareable to reality. Try to cut down on words that wouldn't have existed in the Italian Renaissance as this is completely ahistoric.
"Leonardo da Vinci", "da Vinci, Leonardo" or "Vinci, Leonardo da"
[user:Fawcett5] changed references from "da Vinci" to "Vinci", giving the edit summary "Arguement could be made for key under L for Leonardo too, but certainly not under 'da'". Encyclopedia Britannica has the main article under L, with references from V and from D. Dan Brown obviously saw "da Vinci" as the last name. Though he is not a truth witness, I think that a reference from D is sensible.--Niels Ø 22:33, Mar 19, 2005 (UTC)
- "Leonardo" is correct. Fredrik | talk 23:00, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I would concur that Leonardo is of such singular fame that he could be listed under L. But interpolations such as de, da, von, etc. are never considered for the purposes of alphabetizing surnames. Fawcett5 20:31, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Check out alphabetization of de Morgan and de Moivre in Wikipedia and in Britannica, then! I will not argue about which is the most correct (in Leonardo's case, I think it is L). But D still seems at least as reasonable as V to me.
- Given that 'da Vinci' means 'from Vinci', 'da Vinci, Leonardo' is surely as incongruous as 'of Arc, Joan', filed under 'O'. The difficulty is with names like Van Eyck, Van Dyck, Van Gogh etc. The last two spent some time in England where it stands to reason that 'V' would have been treated as the first letter of their surnames. Perhaps that also explains 'de Morgan' under 'D'? And we always refer to 'Rembrandt', never 'van Rijn'; 'Giotto' not 'di Bondone' and so on. Ham 14:57, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Battle of Anghiari
What were the "technical difficulties that prevented Leonardo from completing the Battle of Anghiari mural? --Theo (Talk) 23:44, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)
WP:FAC
Is this article now worth nomination for Featured Article Status? Fulfils... I think most of Wikipedia:What is a featured article. - Estel (talk) 13:11, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, assuming that this is a Biography, then WikiProject Biographys says that it must have the following sections:
- Front matter (above the table of contents)
- One or two paragraphs giving a brief record of the person's life. Remember, on a print-out, this is the information on page #1.
- Name in bold print followed by the birth and death dates in parenthesis. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies) for more information.
- One sentence describing the occupation(s) and most notable accomplishment.
- Information on parentage, spouse(s), descendants, as well as residency. Include dates.
- One or two paragraphs giving a brief record of the person's life. Remember, on a print-out, this is the information on page #1.
- Early Years - major experiences (especially those contributing to later achievments, education.
- Major Achievements (in timeline order)
- References (with cited sources)
- See also
- External links
- Front matter (above the table of contents)
- Of which "Early years" and "Major Achievements" do not exist in that form - Estel (talk) 13:19, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
- No, this is by far not yet ready for WP:FAC. A cursory read revealed false information (see #Leonardo's death below). The article needs at least a thorough fact check and more extensive referencing. Lupo 08:09, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Vegetarian
I am terribly sorry but what does the category vegetarians do on this article. Nowhere in this article it states he was a vegetarian. It would be kinda difficult to find that out wouldn't it? Waerth 02:57, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The information can be found through this link (http://www.ivu.org/history/davinci/hurwitz.html). Written by David Hurwitz. --Eleassar777 12:05, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Shouldn't it be mentioned in the article? Right now I was inclined to remove te vegetarian cat, but 15.000 edit experience on nl:wikipedia told me to ask first .... not everybody might think that way .... Waerth 00:58, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I included some information and a link yesterday. Feel free to add more. Regards. --Eleassar777 06:37, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Thx .... interesting it already was an issue so long ago ... Waerth 12:26, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Image
Hello. I think the image is not correctly depicting Leonardo. I suggest replacing it with the "standard" image of Leonardo (his scetched self-portrait) instead of this make-up version created by some else much later. --Fred chessplayer (talk) (edits) 16:31, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- According to the commons image page, the one at the top is a self-portrait also. Probably not right, though. Fredrik | talk 17:22, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Homosexuality versus Morality
I can't believe the article this contained logic--good catch.Yeago 17:48, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Perspective
I would love to see something here about Leonardo's role in the birth and evolution of perspective, ideally linking to Jean Gebser or a similar article. — FJ | hello 17:39, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
Leonardo's death
I have replaced the bolded text from following sentence of the article:
where "[4]" pointed to the reference
- Renaissance Warrior and Patron, R J Knecht, page 140 (http://print.google.com/print?id=zGvoIW6Y_xAC&lpg=140&pg=140&sig=JpZlFYtgbZutFC3NJSDWWRzVGRc)
This reference, which I have also removed, is from a book on Francis I, not on Leonardo; it doesn't say anything on Leonardo's death except "Leonardo came to France in 1516, where he was given the manor of Cloux outside Amboise by the king, and he died there three years later." In contrast, the 1911 Britannica (http://82.1911encyclopedia.org/L/LE/LEONARDO_DA_VINCI.htm) writes "King Francis, then at his court of St Germain-en-Laye, is said to have wept for the loss of such a servant; that he was present beside the death-bed and held the dying painter in his arms is a familiar but an untrue tale." (emphasis added, Lupo. de:Leonardo da Vinci uses an exact translation of this 1911 Britannica text.) A French web site (http://www.leguide-loire.com/personnalites/artistes/leonard-de-vinci.htm) states "C'est là qu'il mourut, le 2 mai 1519, au Clos-Lucé dans les bras de son élève Francisco Melzi (et non de François 1er, comme le veut la légende)." ("There he died on May 2nd, 1519, in Clos-Lucé [Cloux? –Lupo] in the arms of Francesco Melzi (and not, as the legend tells, of Francis I).") [3] (http://www.kausal.com/leonardo/death.html) is another site claiming that Leonardo didn't die in the king's arms. Brockwell (http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/7785), based on Vasari (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/vasari1.html), is another source that does report the "Francis I" version. I don't know who this Brockwell was, and Giorgio Vasari's works seem to be of doubtful accuracy and he may well have been liable to glorify a bit. Personally, I'm more inclined to believe the 1911 Britannica; at the very least, it seems to be unclear in whose arms Leonardo died. I have therefore removed both the mention from the text and that "Google print" reference. Lupo 07:16, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- BTW, this Google search (http://www.google.com/search?q=%2B%22Cloux%22+%2B%22Clos-Luc%E9%22+%2BLeonardo) indicates that "Cloux" and "Clos Lucé" are different names for the same place. I've changed the "Professional life" section accordingly. Lupo 08:03, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)