Talk:Kievan Rus'
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- Should there be added reference that Rurik was invited by local population? This is how it was presented in Russian chronicles.
- End of article is somewhat wrong.
- To the southwest, the principality of Galicia-Volhynia? had highly developed trade relations with its Polish, Hungarian, and Lithuanian neighbors and emerged as another successor to Kievan Rus'. In the early thirteenth century, [Prince Roman Mstislavich]? united the two previously separate principalities, conquered Kiev, and assumed the title of grand duke of Kievan Rus'. His son, [Prince Daniil]? (Danylo; r. 1238-1264) was the first ruler of Kievan Rus' to accept a crown from the Roman papacy, apparently doing so without breaking with Orthodoxy. Early in the 14th century, the patriarch of the Orthodox Church in Constantinople granted the rulers of Galicia-Volhynia a metropolitan to compensate for the move of the Kievan metropolitan to Vladimir.
- However, a long and unsuccessful struggle against the Mongols combined with internal opposition to the prince and foreign intervention to weaken Galicia-Volhynia. With the end of the [Mstislavich Dynasty]? in the mid-fourteenth century, Galicia-Volhynia ceased to exist; Lithuania took Volhynia, and Poland annexed Galicia.
As you know, it was Casimir the Great, king of Poland, who almost _forced_ Constantinople of making metropolite in Galicia. Casimir the Great was legal heir to last prince of Galicia, with whom he make deal, that after his death he will rule Galicia - that last prince, moreover, was (IIRC, at least partially) from Piast dynasty.
However from entry it seems the opposite. I will change it very soon now (c), that is as soon as i will finish my other urgent projectds, then few articles on wikipedia, then others... szopen
I would be most grateful if you can improve on it. I only provided a good start... Graham Chapman
Well, i will try, although i am not historian and i hope that someone more skillful will do it. Entry is already very good. Last two paragraphs are not false; they are just facts choosen so final impression is false. szopen
hm: here what i've found:
"After the conversion of the Ruthenians in this region to Christianity, the Bishopric of Halicz, suffragan to Kiev, was established for their benefit between 1152 and 1180. Halicz had been made a metropolitan see in 1345 by John Calecas, Patriarch of Constantinople, but in 1347 it was again placed under the jurisdiction of Kiev, at the request of the Grand Duke Simeon of Moscow. Its metropolitan rank was restored to Halicz only after the Polish occupation of the province about 1371; "
Seems i was partially wrong, partially right :) szopen
The history of Russia table that appears at the top of the article might give readers the false impression the todays Russia and Russians are the logical successors of Kievan Rus, dropping it would be a bad idea but I think we need a clear reference to Ukraine and the History of Ukraine article right above it. Does any one have a better idea.
NPOV for series inclusion
While I am not sure what the best solution to the problem would be, it's clear that the fundamental position that underlies the proposal is correct: it is quite biased and tenditious to have an article on "Kievan Rus'" and then place it for basic identification framework in an article on "Russia," a nation which arose much later and NOT solely from Rus' in its original name, ethnicity, language or politics and culture.
I would add a second assertion: that this article arguably should also be referenced/incorporated into the entry on Belarus'. I don't think my point is as urgent as the one recommended directly above, but I think it is valid.
This issue needs some further attention/guidance to arrive at a better NPOV result. Genyo 02:30, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Genyo, have you already seen discussion on Ruthenians?
Szopen 09:25, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Szopen, I sure have, and yes, it is relevant. But what do you propose be done to solve the problem mentioned by the previous contributor? multiple links? the recasting of the article on Kievan Rus' into a more equal-time incorporation into a series on the history of Ukraine, which arguably is the first place for such an article? How about dividing the Kievan Rus' article into subsections for each area? (The areas later to be called "Ukraine", "Russia," and Belarus'?) What do you (and others, for that mattter) say about that?
I think it'd be great to do this in an organized consensus-developing way instead of a volley of revision wars.
Genyo 12:15, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've added a a small forward to the history of Russia table as a stop gap measure, it probably needs a few tweaks. A few questions:
- Is there some way to make the box automaticly scale is the size of the table will change?
- Is the problem explained clearly enough, or should it be expanded?
- Is there anything important that should also be mentioned that I have overlooked?
If modern Russia is mentioned Ukraine should be mentioned as well. There is no nationalism in that. However, obviously the paragraph shoud be edited. Another solution is to remove the frame entirely.Yeti 14:11, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- It's nice to mention that Ukraine and Belarus that share their history with modern Russia, I agree. But it should be done in accurate manner, not by brute inaccurate nationalistic changes. And don't forget common policy for the Wikipedia - "most used items preferred" - that is used when ambiguation problem arises. Whatever Ukrainian nationalists think, it's a matter of fact that Russia is the most powerful and so most often referenced country of those that share territory and history of Kievan Rus. Remember - not everything that derogates Russians is good. :-) Drbug 20:59, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- It seems that I've made maximum that is possible at this point. Drbug 21:32, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
DrBug, the point is NOT to derogate Russia--the point is to not derogate her neighbors. Secondly, the point isn't that Ukraine and Belarus' share a common history with Russia--the point is that Russia simply didn't exist a thousand years ago, and that instead Russia and Ukraine and Belarus' share a common inheritance--though unequally--in the state of Kievan Rus' The problem arises in Russian imperialistic claims that Kievan Rus' was something else, was Russia, which is patently false. Kievan Rus' was a foreign period in the history of Russia, though one that was partly formative of Russian identity. And that is the problem underlying the "Series" issue. Genyo 01:16, 8 May 2004 (UTC)
History and evolution of Kievan Rus and used terms do not reflect mainstream English historiography and contain antirussian bias. Drbug 11:30, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Date of Founding of Kievan Rus
Kievan Rus', Rurik, Rulers of Kievan Rus' are confusing as to when KR was founded. The date of 860 is when Rurik supposedly came to Novgorod. And there was no such thing as Kievan Rus at least until Oleg. Please fix who knows better. Mikkalai 21:06, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Pro-Swedish changes reverted
I don't think it proper to include in the article on the common history of three Slavic states so many minor details about Swedish connections. We might add as much info about Danish, Polish, Finnish, and Greek contacts of the Rus, thereby turning the article into partisan mess. Some added info is not correct, i.e., Yaroslav the Wise did not marry *two* Swedish princesses (not that it matters so much whom he married). If we mention Yaroslav's Swedish wife, why not mention Greek wife of his father, and Greek, Polish, German wives of his sons? Yaroslav was hardly Svyatoslav's successor, as there were three or four princes ruling in between. It is not important for the history of Kievan state that some Varangian once living in Rus was elected king of Sweden. If you think that this Swedish-oriented information is of great importance, please add it to the articles on Yaroslav the Wise, Svyatoslav, etc and not to the first article in the series dedicated to Russian history. Ghirlandajo 11:27, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry, if I have stepped on some toes, but you make some pretty strong assertions about their slavicness as early as the mid-10th century. This was the time of a very multi-cultural Kievan Rus. Solve that or we are going to exchange some editing. Moreover, your anti-normanist POV is quite evident in your edits.--Wiglaf 11:43, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)