Talk:Jewish principles of faith

I recently made a minor modification to a paragraph that has been in this article for over a year. In the past Danny, I and others have been in agreement on this point. However, on looking it over the point seemed too strong; it made it look as if Orthodox Jews reject all of modernity, which they certainly do not. (They live in the greater gentile society which sourrounds them, use all modern technology and medicine, and participate in the general economy and society.) As such, I changed a few words to tone down the original. Out of nowhere, Danny wrote "removed ill-informed statement by user who does not know what he is talking about." and took out the entire paragraph. All I can say is "huh"? RK 17:06, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

From Hirsch to Kook to Soloveichik to Greenberg, all have adopted ideas from the "Enlightenment," so stop your pompous posing and try to write about things you know. Danny 19:05, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Danny, first off, stop your ad homenim attacks. Secondly, this paragraph has been in this article for a year. Third, you and I already discussed this issue. I never claimed that every single Orthodox Jew rejected every single idea from the enlightenment. You are attributing an extreme position to me that I never had; You and I worked on the articles on Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Judaism, and we came to a consensus on them. In fact I repeatedly praised the hard work you did on them, and the fine material you added. You know that we agree on this topic. So why this outburst to the contrary? RK

In any case, I find a problem with your examples. While Rabbi Irving Greenberg is a product of the enlightenment, the result is that many of his writings are considered unacceptable to many Orthodox Jews; his views are not representative of any mainstream Orthodox rabbinical group or Yeshiva, and he has been condemned by some of his own modern Orthodox peers as beyond the pale.

As for Rabbis Abraham Isaac Kook and Joseph Soloveitchik, they reject many religious and philosophical enlightenment ideas. Just to give two significant examples, Kook didn't even want women to have the right to vote. And Soloveitchik attacked all post-enlightenment bible research on the Torah as heretical, and held on to some rather medieval ideas about the status of women in Judaism. The fact these men embrace some enlightenment ideas is true, but I never claimed or implied otherwise. I think you are reading way too much into what I wrote. RK

Finally, you literally misread the entire point of the edit I made! The original paragraph made all Orthodox Jews out to be anti-modern, and in (apparent) agreement with you, I toned down this idea. Do you wish to phrase that paragraph another way? Fine, I would welcome your input. RK 19:45, Jul 5, 2004 (UTC)

Acceptance of post-enlightement ideas is admittedly a thorny issue. Nevertheless, a lot of ideas have eventually filtered into religious thought, sometimes after their share of controversy. With every novelty, the question is "halanu atta im le-tzareinu" (Joshua 5:13) - is this development going to be good or detrimental? JFW | T@lk 20:30, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 View of non-Jews and permitted relationships with them. 2 Jewish Holidays template 3 Creation of the universe 3.1 Kabbalistic views on Creation 3.2 Rabbinic statements that are compatible with evolution

View of non-Jews and permitted relationships with them.

For such complete article the omission of the above is curious.

Curious in what way? Why do you think that topic would be relevant to this article? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Jewish Holidays template

Why is the Jewish holidays template at the bottom here? This article is not about a Jewish holiday. -Joshuapaquin 03:37, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

Creation of the universe

JFW, I don't see why what I wrote should be seen as "unbalanced". From what I understand, it has been a mainstream view in Judaism that one should not take the creation account of Gensesis literally. For the last 150 years a great many Orthodox rabbis have stressed that the Bible does not explicitly claim that the world was created six thousands years ago. That was an assumption based on the dating in Seder Olam, a non-canonical midrash that has no formal status in either Jewish law or Jewish theology. In fact, some Kabbalists teach that Jews whp accept Kabbalistic texts as geunine and accurate - which includes a great many Orthodox Jews - should understand that our universe is billions of years old. See the works of Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. Since the development of modern geology which has proved that our world is some 4.5 billion years old, the great majority of religious Jews (both Orthodox and non-Orthodox) have taught that one must find a way to re-read the Bible in accord with this finding. Why should this not be noted within the main article? RK 17:24, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Kabbalistic views on Creation

Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan writes about the little known view of Kabbalists about the creation of the world and the evolution of life on Earth. He notes that the Tiferes Yisrael (Rabbi Meir Simchah of Dvinsk, 19th cent) cites a tanna (rabbi of the Mishna) that God created many worlds, and destroyed them, before our world was created. He holds that fossil remains of dinosaurs are indeed millions of years old, and are the remains from these earlier worlds.

The Soc.Culture.Jewish FAQ summarizes more of Aryeh Kaplan's summary:

In Gen 1:1, G-d creates ex nihilo (matter from nothing). Then, before verse 2, these other worlds (in this opinion, epochs) rose and fell. Then, there was "chaos and emptiness" from which our world emerged. The universe as a whole, even the planet, can therefor be older than 5758 years. Since current theory is that the world started as a singularity -- in other words, not within the purvey of science, it is all a matter of faith if the ex nihilo was with the intent of the Creator or not. Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan quotes R' Yitzchak of Akko (a student of the Ramban, late medieval) who concludes from the Zohar that the first creation was 15.8 billion years ago -- the age astronomers and physicists seem to be converging on, given multiple ways of measuring the age. The Netziv (R' Naftali Zvi Yehudah Berlin), in his commentary on chumash, argues against the idea that these earlier worlds left physical evidence. It doesn't fit the precise translation of the quote, that G-d "created worlds umachrivam -- and destroyed them". Instead, the Netziv points to a medrash in which it is explained that the fall of morality in humanity in the days before the flood reflected itself in nature. Even animals interbread, leading to the monstrosities that archeologists find.

Rabbinic statements that are compatible with evolution

• Talmud Chagiga 13b states that there were 974 generations of humans before God created Adam.

• Many midrashim state that the "first week" of Creation lasted for extremely long periods of time. See Anafim on Rabbenu Bachya's Sefer Ikkarim 2:18; Midrash Bereshit Rabba 9. (I haven't read the Anafim on this discursus myself - RK)

• Midrash Bereshit Rabba 14 states that humans were created with tails!

• Midrash Tanchuma Genesis 6 states that people born before the time of Noah had webbed fingers!

• Breshit Rabba 23 states that in the days of Enosh the faces of men became ape like.

So given the above statements in classical rabbinic literature and the Kabbalistic literature, it is hard to say that the classical Jewish view demanded that people accept that the world was created as is some 6,000 years ago. I think the text should stress that the literal understanding of creation in six days was one of a number of religious Jewish understandings, but was not the only one. RK 20:33, May 6, 2005 (UTC)