Talk:History of Poland (1939-1945)/Archive 1

Anyone reading this archive should be made aware that the comments signed as GH were made by the user now known as AM.

Contents

1 Links irrelevant? 2 Nazi Germany instead of Germany 3 From the village pump 4 revert war (well, a skirmish)

Links irrelevant?

I made a couple of minor changes (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=General_Government&diff=1627823&oldid=1627702), mainly with the effect of linking to other wikipedia articles which I found relevant. Now I see that none of these survived long. I can't help to ask why.
--Ruhrjung 09:22, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

If I deleted any links you think are important I apologise. Feel free to restore them. Adam 09:30, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I don't like edit wars. If what I contributed wasn't approved, why should I bother to engage in wiki-warfare? I asked, and still ask, since I am seriously curious about what's wrong with the links to:

• Wehrmacht
• Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
• Krakow
• Operation Barbarossa
• genocide
• race and master race
• Slavic peoples
• secondary education
• Warsaw Ghetto Rising
• guerilla

I admit to have done minor revisions to the text at the same time, and I understand that some of these changes, given the current tensed atmosphere around issues Polish, might have caused all of my changes to have been reverted, but I would be eager to learn which:

German Army	Wehrmacht
Nazi-Soviet Pact	Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
Cracow	Krakow
the mass murder by gassing of millions of Jews from Poland and other countries	the genocide by gassing of undesired "races," chiefly millions of Jews from Poland and other countries
It was German policy that the (non-Jewish) Poles were to be reduced to the status of serfs, and eventually replaced by German colonists.	It was German policy that the (non-Jewish) Poles, like other Slavic peoples, were to be reduced to the status of serfs, and eventually replaced by German colonists of "master race."
The Home Army [...] was formed from a number of smaller groups in 1942.	The Home Army [...] was formed from a number of smaller anti-Socialist groups in 1942.
By 1944 the AK had some 200,000 men, although few arms: the AL was much smaller. The AK killed about 150,000 German troops during the occupation.	By 1944 the AK had some 200,000 men, although few arms. During the occupation, the AK killed about 150,000 German troops. The AL was smaller and less significant.

--Ruhrjung 10:32, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I didn't intentionally reverse any of your changes. They must have been overridden when I redirected General Government to this page. I don't have any problem with any of your changes so feel free to edit the page. Adam 11:20, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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I knew we would have trouble with this. If Mr Anonymous Polish Patriot would like to become a user then we can debate these issues. Adam 12:56, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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What is wrong with the detail description: "At the areas of former Soviet occupation, Germans tried to inicite hate against alleged Jewish collaboration with Soviets, so they could perform genocide local hands. It is alleged that this strategy initially succeeded in the town of Jedwabne. However, the truth about this incident is hotly disputed. " I think it is NPOV, while the previous version is POV.

Why you think that it is relevant to mention that some Poles were Anti-Semites, without taking into account, that Jewish culture flourished in Poland for 7 centuries?

If you say that Jews pointed out at Polish collboration, you should mention that Poles pointed out at Jewish collaboration? GH

GH:

• If you are saying that the Germans incited the Poles to attack the Jews, well maybe they did, but the Poles needed no incitement. There were at least ten documented pogroms in Poland between 1918 and 1939.

ten pogroms means 1 every 2 years and you are saying that it is much? If I should counted riots of football fans on the street of my town, it would be like once a month. There is big difference, when there happenned ethnic riots in Poland before 1939, where there were police and independent judiciary system. Try to compare to situation in 1941 where Germans wanted Poles to kill Jews Polish hands and nobody could expect any punishment but only reward for wrongdoings.

• It is not adequate to say that "some Poles were anti-Semites." Most Poles were anti-Semites, and both the Sanacja regime and Cardinal Hlond openly incited anti-Semitism. If Jewish culture flourished in Poland for 700 years it was despite Polish anti-Semitism.

You should know, that Sanacja was exactly anti- anti-Semites political movements. Endecja was anti-Semites and Sanacja was an enemy of Endecja ( and sometimes borrowed the political slogans from them).

Real life example, my family moved before 1939 to Jewish shtetl 5000 people 90% of Jews. How my family could have been Anti-Semites and move to whole Jewish neighbourhood?? Another question, how you could feel anti-Semitism around if 90% of your neighbours were Jewish?

If Poland had had 700 years history of anti-Semitism, why Jews wouldn't have emigrated to more friendly country?? (Hint: there were no other country so friendly to Jews then Poland, despite the fact that some Poles were anti-Semites, Jews immigrated to Poland in big numbers. The last 2 waves of Jewish immigration to Poland happenned in 1917-1921 from Soviet Russia and in 1933-1939 from Nazi Germany)

• If you are alleging that Jews gave away Polish resistance fighters to the Germans, I find that very hard to believe, I have never seen it suggested before, and I would like to see some evidence.

If you risk your life and hide Jews in your home, and then he is found by Germans, or tortured tells your name, your whole family would have been executed. One thought twice before helping Jews.

Adam 14:47, 29 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yet another believer of Evil Poles.

GH

I don't think this has anything to do with "evil Poles" -- anti-Semitism was fairly mainstream and widespread in late 19th century and early 20th century Europe, and I don't think Poland was an exception to that general trend. The fact that pogroms happened every two years (which does seem pretty often to me) indicates that there was in fact a fairly strong anti-Jewish sentiment in the interwar years.

All these issues do need to be written up more generally though in the context of European anti-Semitism; the phenomenon of French willingly helping Nazi catch Jews during the Vichy era is very similar. I think there has been an attempt by modern Europeans to pain themselves in retrospect as non-anti-Semites, and blame the Nazis exclusively for any harm that may have come to Jews, but I think the notion that everyone in France, Poland, etc. hid Jews in their attics and was a member of the Resistance is a bit more romantic than factual. --Delirium 01:01, Oct 30, 2003 (UTC)

Your statement sound to me like common sense. Yet the discussion is about Adam statemants, that most of Poles were anti-Semites. I do not believe, that except brief periods of revolutions, most of people sign to extremes. Sometimes most people are forced or manouvred into extreme positions, but assigning most of them to evil faction is exegarration.

GH

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When I say most Poles were anti-Semites I don't mean that they were itching to murder their Jewish neighbours. I mean that they lived in am anti-Semitic culture, promoted by the Catholic church and (after Pilsudski's death) by the Polish regime, that promoted negative views of Jews and used Jews as scapegoats for all of Poland's ills. I can quote both Smigly-Rydz and Cardinal Hlond to that effect if you want. Poland wasn't unique in that, the same was true in Hungary, Austria, Lithuania etc.

Sound completely different.

Nor did I say that all or even most Poles helped the Germans carry out the Holocaust. A few did, while a few actively helped the Jews. The great majority were passive bystanders, and in the terrible circumstances that most Poles were in by 1942 that is understandable. I would agree that there was less Polish collaboration with the Nazis in Poland than there was in (say) Ukraine or the Baltic states.

In an encyclopaedia we do not call people evil, we try to explain what happened in the context of the times. I wish our anonymous Polish friend would stop distorting the text by making these kinds of allegations. I fear also that his English isn't quite up to editing this article.

Also I am again going to redirect the General Government article to this article. The text is much the same and it serves no purpose as a separate article.

Adam 03:03, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Don't do it! Are you also going to redirect Northern Australia to Australia??

You need some orientation in Polish history to make a deep changes. Correct language, but do not change description. GH

Yes I would, if it served no useful purpose to have two separate articles. I am not Polish but I know enough Polish history to argue with you on these points. The issue here is not knowledge of Polish history but allowing ourselves to be influenced by defensive / patriotic sentiment. Adam 03:15, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

• Let's begin from the beginning. We have period of history of Poland 1939-45 and we have administrative division of Nazi occupation called General Goverment. If we decide, that there is more in common in the history of all the parts of occupied Poland, we should move everthing to previous. (I think otherwise, I believe there were many important differences between GG and the areas annexed by III Reich and the huge differences to situation in Soviet zone i.e. Jedwabne were located.)

But even if we decide so, there is still staff that applies to GG separately, like borders, administrative divisions, like the fact that the GG delegate on the Wansee conference demanded GG to be counted for the final solution as the first and so on. GH

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Your most recent additional material is very interesting and I have no problem with it. The only thing we are disagreeing about is your paragraph about Jews collaborating with the Nazis. I have looked in six books and seen no reference to this. Where is your evidence? Adam 09:11, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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For example: http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallery/p146.htm

OK so your evidence that Jews collaborated with the Nazis is the existence of the Judenrats and the ghetto police, is it? This shows you don't know very much about the history of the Holocaust. These were institutions established by the Nazis, with which the Jewish community leaders were given no choice but to co-operate. They co-operated in the hope that this would appease the Nazis and improve the living conditions of the Jews in the Ghettos. That turned out to be a false hope, but it wasn't an unreasonable or dishonourable one in the circumstances. To compare this with the voluntary collaboration of those Poles who acted as "Jew-hunters" or betrayed Jews to the Nazis is absurd. Also, there is no evidence that I've ever seen that Judenrats or ghetto police ever betrayed Polish resistance fighters to the Nazis, and it's hard to see how they could have been in a position to do so. Adam 12:12, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

By the way, where to put info concerning administrative divisions, which Reichsgau particular districts belonged to? GH

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Juat had a read of the page. Doesn't seem too bad. I changed some sections titles to flag pov issues and the need for a post war section.

Also should mention the shocking handover of these people to the Soviet Union at the end of World War 2. Not one of our(Britain's) finest hours! : ChrisG 11:42, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

• If you have detailed information about Polish units that fought in the west, please add it.
• I don't recall reading about Poles who fought in the west being handed over to the Soviets - as opposed to Russians. Many of them settled here (Australia). What info do you have on this? Adam 11:46, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

OK I have checked on this and I think you are mistaken. Lord Bethell's book The Last Secret makes no mention of Poles being handed over to the Soviets. I haven't got Tolstoy's book here but my memory is that he doesn't mention Poles either. The handovers were mainly of Russians who had fought in the Vlasov army or of minorities such as the Cossacks who were accused of having collaborated with the Germans, as indeed most of them had (which doesn't excuse handing them over). The Poles who fought with Anders in the west could not possibly have been accused of collaboration, and there would have been a huge outcry against forcing them to return to communist Poland or the USSR against their will. Some did return voluntarilt, but the majority settled in the US or Australia. Adam 12:25, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This probably isn't any use...at all...anyhow...

My Grandad ended up teaching soldiers from the Polish Free Corps english.

Probably utterly useless, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Alun Ephraim 12:32, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Added links to existing (for LONG TIME) article about massacre in Jedwabne. Added mentioning about Zegota. Corrected info about Gheto uprising (IIRC there were also other uprising in Polish ghettoes before Warsaw). Added info about civil war in Poland. szopen

Actually, i think that History of Poland (1939-1945) should cover history of Poland, including the fate of different prtions of Poland, while GG should concenrate on conditions in GG, and mentioning Poznan in article about GG is, well, strange. szopen

I have said several times that the General Government article is a mess and should be deleted, but since no-one agrees with me it is up to those who want to keep it to edit it. Adam

Nazi Germany instead of Germany

It is historically imprecise to call the country Germany from 1932 to 1990. The country was called Germany until 1932 and again since 1990. In between it has to be called Nazi Germany (1932-1945), later West or East Germany (1945-1990). Everything else is colloquial and should not stand in an Enzyklopedia. It would not be accepted by historicians. I tried to correct it, but a user twice undoed my changes. (Andreas)

There has never been a country called Nazi Germany. The country was called Deutsches Reich from 1871 to 1945. The "historically precise" name (in English) for the country is Germany and the for the people Germans. Everybody who reads this article knows that Germany was ruled by the Nazi Party in 1939, and it doesn't need to be constantly restated. Adam 13:38, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Exactly that is, what historicians want to stress. (Andreas)

I presume from your spelling of Enzyklopedia that you are German. I understand that Germans don't like reading that Germans did things like invading Poland, and so seek to blame Nazis for all this history. But we are all stuck with our history, and the fact is that Germany did invade Poland and all the other stuff. Germans are just going to learn to live with this, and not try to tamper with the historical record. Adam 13:56, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Hi! I join this discussion. Maybe it's some off-topic, but just like Germans AND RUSSIANS have to live with their history and the invasion of Poland, Americans also have to live with the history of a country which is responsible for crimes even larger the Nazis, and which as late as this year invaded a country and killed thousands of civilians.

Btw.: Germany for a large part liberated German territories occupied by Poland since end of WW1, territories which legally belonged to Germany according to the Vienna congress; the ALLIED country Soviet had no reason for invading Poland, just like USA had no reason for invading Iraq. And why did not France and UK declare Soviet war for this invasion? Who massacred the Polish officers, for instance? And who started the WW2? Nico 14:10, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In Wikipedia there are wiki links to Nazi Germany, East Germany, West Germany. Nobody, who clicks "Germany" in _this_ text, thinks that a text about the modern Germany would appear. Since you even can find texts about the period using these names, they should linked. Why using the imprecise word, when Wikipedia offers the possibility for more precision? I stick to it, Nazi Germany should be used. In comparision, nobody says "Russians" when speaking about people from the former "Soviet Union", because it was another system with other borders. I am german and I know that there exist different views, but why should the American (or British?) view the only right one, only because this is an English Wikipedia version? (Andreas)

@Nico: I think it is clear, that Nazi Germany started the war, when invading Poland. But it was not Germany (Schröder, Kohl, ...) (Andreas)

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None of all that is to the point. The point is, what was the name of the country which invaded Poland in 1939? The answer is Germany. And that is what an encyclopaedia has to say. End of argument. Adam 14:22, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

@Adam: Even you are right, Nazi Germany instead of Germany is not incorrect. Click on Nazi Germany and find out! It is a common name, even in English, for "The Germany in the Hitler Era". Would you accept this argumentation and would you accept that "the usage of Nazi Germany is not incorrect"? I say: "Germany is always wrong", if you accept my last view, then you say "Germany is always correct, but Nazi Germany, too." (Andreas)

I don't really understand what Andreas is saying. This is an English-language encyclopaedia and Andreas's English isn't really up to this argument. There is a German-language Wikipedia, too, you know. I will just repeat my point that the name of the country in 1939 was Germany, and that is what an encyclopaedia should call it. Adam 14:40, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

What I wanted to tell you, is, that there is even in your argumentation the possibility to call "Germany" Nazi Germany. I don't accept "Germany", you do. I only accept "Nazi Germany", perhaps, you, too? That's what I want to know. For me it is the only possibility to distinguish between "Drittes Reich" and "Bundesrepublik Deutschland" in english. Therefore it should be used. (Andreas)

As I said before, Germany was legally called Deutsches Reich from 1871 to 1945. Look it up if you don't believe me. It was never called "Nazi Germany" or Drittes Reich. It's not a question of what "you accept." It's a question of historical fact. Adam 14:57, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I guess, you don't WANT to understand me. Of course It was called "Drittes Reich", that is what I said. A common english term is "Nazi Germany". It is correct to call Hitler's Germany "Nazi Germany", especially in an Encyclopedia, were just Germany is imprecise and there is no better possibility for distinction in english. (Andreas)

Andreas you're just repeating yourself. We've said all there is to say about this. If you don't know the history of youur own country I can't help you. Adam 15:06, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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I removed all of this:

===Jewish POV===

Poland had a long history of indigenous anti-Semitism, and few people cared much what fate befell the Jews. There were some examples of conspicuous courage by Poles in hiding Jewish families, but an equal number of cases in which Poles betrayed Jews to the Germans, or made their living as "Jew-hunters." Since the war Jews have commented bitterly on the passive collaboration of the Polish population in the extermination of the Polish Jews. A very large number of Jews were also killed by Polish units working for the Nazis and Poles directly employed by them, and there are examples of Jews being killed by Poles even after the war was ended.

===Polish POV===

Jewish population of Poland had a long history of ambivalent feelings about Poland. Before 1938 there were strong support for communist party among Jewish population, that were in favour of creating Polish Soviet Republic. There were exmples of Polish Jews who greeted with joy Soviet troops annexing eastern Polish territories, helping them organize Soviet administration and denouncing Polish anti-communists an patriots to the Communists.

Since the beginning of the war Poles commented bitterly on the active collaboration of the Jewish population with the Soviets in the Polish areas annexed by Soviets. Many Jews, that were closed by Nazis in ghettos, didn't speak Polish, some where expelled forcibly from Germany and didn't identified with Poland at all.

In the General Government Jewish authorities of Ghettos were taking part in the Holocaust in the vain hope, that Jewish collaboraters will be allowed to survive. A very large number of Jews were also killed by Jewish units, i.e. Jewish police, working for the Nazis.

The Polish resistance forbid Poles to take part in Nazis crimes against Jews. This included the death penalty for Poles who assisted the Germans in exterminating the Jews.

At the same time, for any kind of help in hiding Jews, all Poles involved were executed by Nazis, including whole families with women and children. There were many examples of conspicuous courage by Poles in hiding Jewish families, but also cases in which Poles betrayed Jews to the Germans, or made their living as "Jew-hunters." Polish resistance organised also regular help to Jews via Zegota.

Polish resistance were unable to prevent all cases of collaboration, especially in the Polish areas annexed by Soviets, where Polish resistance were practically exterminated by Soviets before 1941.

This led to such a tragedies, like Jedwabne, where Poles, having no Polish local leadership, were involved with Nazi crimes against Jews.

After 1945, many members of Stalinsts security police, were of Jewish origins, that were brain-washed in Soviet Union. They performed the worst cruel tasks ordered by Stalin, including torturing members of Polish resistance fighting against Nazis.

After 1989 for the first time, open dispute about relationship between Poles, Germans, Soviets and Jews is possible. There is a hope that some NPOV will be found soon.

Yes, there was indigenous anti-Semitism in Poland, but the Holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis, not the Poles, and even Poles who participated would not have done so were it not for the Nazi occupation. Many Poles were hostile to the Jews, and there was official anti-Semitism in Poland before the war, however, there were also considerable efforts to help Jews in Poland. ZEGOTA is mentioned. Jan Karski is another important example. Was Polish passivity any greater than, say, Ukrainian or Lithuanian passivity (or even Hungarian or French passivity)? I would like to see some documentation to back that up. As for the Polish POV, yes, there were many Jews who were communists (but certainly not a majority), but there were also many Jews who were proud Polish patriots, including among the communists. Jews escaped East because they did not want to be killed. Period. Yes, the Nazis forced German Jews into Poland. Many of them did not speak Polish. What is the argument? That people uprooted from their homes and forced to live in dismal conditions in a foreign country that did not really want them should feel loyalty to that country? As for collaboration in the Ghettos, that is yet another bit of nonsense. The person most frequently called a collaborator is Czerniakow--he committed suicide when he realized that the Nazis were bent on extermination. A recent PhD disertation in NYU discusses the personal ads of the Jewish press in the Warsaw Ghetto. It points to the large number of job training opportunities offered in the ghetto right up to the end. People thought--and for good reason--that if they were deemed useful, they would survive. What is the argument? That the half million Jews in the Ghetto should have chosen martyrdom, and because they didn't they are anti-Polish? What, exactly, is the "very large number" of Jews killed by the Jewish police? How many? Oh, and the Jewish police worked for the Jewish authorities, not for the Nazis. The Jewish authorities were allowed by the Nazis to create a police force to maintain order in the Ghetto. As for Jedwabne, are you saying that the Poles committed the massacre because the Soviets (whom, you earlier claimed, had plenty of Jewish backing) killed their leaders? Does that mean: a) the Poles were responsible for Jedwabne, b) the Soviets were responsible for Jedwabne, or c) the Jews were responsible for Jedwabne? Until this section can be rewritten from a decent historical perspective, I, for one, vote it stays out. Danny

Danny wrote: " The Holocaust was perpetrated by the Nazis, not the Poles"

The Nazis included also Poles, and even Poles who not were Nazis killed Jews.

Nico! Why you are not appearing in person? Poles were not members of NZ party. Some Poles served Nazis, they were called collaborators. GH

Danny wrote: " however, there were also considerable efforts to help Jews in Poland."

Yes, sure! Especially when Poland deported the whole Jewish population still living in the country in the 60s! This was also Hitler's original plan!

Nico again! It is completely different subject. Polish and Jewish fractions of Polish Communists Party quarelled and this was the outcome. Nobody asked Poles of their opinion. Of course, one of the most shamefull chapters of the history pf Polish Peoples Republic. GH

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I have made another attempt to restore some coherence and objectivity to this article. Constructive comments and edits are of course welcome, but if this article is vandalised again I will ask to have it protected. Adam 03:51, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Danny wrote, "The person most frequently called a collaborator is Czerniakow--he committed suicide when he realized that the Nazis were bent on extermination."
--I would have thought that that "honor" belonged to Mordecai Rumkowski of the Lodz ghetto. He cooperated in handling over all the children of the ghetto in full knowledge of what their fate would be. But of course there is always more to the story. There ought to be a separate article on the Judenrate and the controversy about them (from Hanna Arendt to the present). --Zero 05:46, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I picked Czerniakow because he is better known than Rumkowski--the Warsaw Ghetto is better known than the Lodz Ghetto if only by virtue of the books and movies made about it, and Czerniakow's diaries are easily available in English. If you'll pardon my French (well, actually Yiddish) Rumkowski was a much bigger shmuck, but to his credit it can be said that Lodz was only liquidated in the summer of 1944. For a real problem figure, I would probably pick Moshe Merin of Sosnowiec, yet even then, there are extenuating circumstances that make it impossible for me to judge these people and the decisions they made. Danny 06:33, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree 100%. Incidentally, in case you don't know it here is a reference that surveys the opinions of people in a better position to judge. The author located a lot of survivors of the ghettos and asked them what they thought of the ghetto leaders. It is Aharon Weiss, Jewish Leadership in Occupied Poland, Yad Vashem Studies, 12 (1977) 335-365. I can provide it if you can't find it. --Zero 08:53, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think an article Jewish life in Poland 1939-45 would be valuable. I have the raw materials for it but it would be a big and sensitive project. Adam 05:54, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I also have plenty of material on it, but I wonder whether it should not be part of a larger piece on 1,000 years of Jewish life in Poland (maybe it's because I have Dubnow on my desk). Of course, given the scope of the subject matter, it will probably have to be broken up anyways ... Danny 06:33, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Do either of you have any material on Zofia Kossak-Szczucka? Adam 07:13, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

When Light Pierced the Darkness: Christian Rescue of Jews in Nazi-Occupied Poland by Nechama Tec, has a bit on her. Btw, I found this out at www.amazon.com using their new "search-inside-the-books" feature. You need to log in (create an account if you don't have one, it is free). Then do a search for "Szczucka" in "books". It does a full-text search on about 150,000 books (allegedly). Then you get a list of the books it appears in. Click on "see more references" to get about 3 lines of context for each occurrence of the keyword. In many cases (alas, not this one), you can even bring up a scan of the whole page containing the reference and about 2 pages each side of it. You have to be logged in or the options are more limited. --Zero 08:48, 2 Nov 2003 (UTC)

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Few points after reading whole this discussion. TO Nico actually 1) in 1960 Polish Jews were expelled as a direct result of inter-communist fight, One fraction was considered of Jewish descendents, second were so called "partisans" or Natolin party. hardly of any relevance to WWII 2) There were no Polish units in Nazi service, period. Even Polish police was refused of arms except for few special cases and had to explain every lost bullet. 3) Again "Poland occupied legally German territory according to..." WHAT? VIenna? VIenna guaranteed that Poland will be ruled by Hohenzollerns and Poles will have guaranteed rights for development of language and culture. Kulturkampf does rign a bell? Anyway, does that mean that you consider effects Versaille pact and appendices as not legally binding??!

To the rest: As a Poles I thikn that current revision is NPOV. It mentions that some Poles were helping and some were bastards. You could also mention that although AK warned that people making living out of blackmailing Jews willl be sentenced to death and pursued after the war, few death punishmentns were actually in effect during war. Mostly because AK was _underground_ organisation.

Except for Jedwabne there is also Radzilow (IIRC), Wasosz and one othervillage, ALL in region of Jedwabne. Can't hear about similar events from elsewhere in Poland. Excellent article about Polish-Jewish relations is : http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~zbigniew/Periphery/No4/Radzilowski.html

szopen

From the village pump

revert war (well, a skirmish)

Following Angela's advice, I created a new page History of Poland (1939-1945), and redirected the old page General Government to it. An anonymous user called 145.254.117.188 keeps un-redirecting the article, plus making edits to both articles which reflect a Polish nationalist POV and are in bad English. 145 has now taken to accusing me of being anti-Polish at my Talk page as well. I therefore request that General Government be deleted, and a new, empty, General Government be created and redirected to History of Poland (1939-1945), so that 145 can't restore the old text. Adam 03:48, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

• The problem is that General Government was an administrative unit, so its history is only a part of history of Poland 1939-45. This doesn't make any sense to get rid of General Government. Maybe good distribution of data between pages would do the same. GH

I had problems with the same user. He made very POV (anti-German) changes to certain articles dealing Germany and Poland, which I reverted. I listed him on Problem Users, then they listed me on Problems Users. After removing myself and being relisted on Problems Users, I had User:Angela move the discussion to Talk:Heimatvertriebene (to get my name off Problem Users). The user ("GH" supposedly but never logs in) seems unwilling to make NPOV edits. Maximus Rex 04:00, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

• The pages you are referring to are still disputed. Information, that you try to protect, are not anti-Polish or pro-Polish, they are simply factuary wrong. Despite the fact, that I know more details about some problems, details given by my are kept deleted.GH

I don't think he knows what NPOV is, he is only here to defend Polish national honour etc. This is a type I am sadly familiar with. Also his English isn't good enough to argue with him. This reinforces my strong view that anonymous users should not be allowed to edit pages. Call me old-fashioned... Adam 04:09, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

• You already accepted 90% adjustments, I proposed and still made such a biased statements against me personally. If it were up to you, the reader would think that Germany in 1939 annexed only areas up to 1914 border, that Lodz belonged to General Goverrnment and probably, the most important, that Polish history 39-45 is the same as General-Government.

The only problem we have here, is that I know much more details about the interesting questions and I can help you to review your pages, so they contain true informations.

GH

I am not the slightestly inclined to get involved in more warfares around matters of Poland's history. But many contributors, in particular them being cock-sure of their own NPOV-ishness, tend to neglect the involved emotions, it seems. Not the least the degree of disappointment, sadness and anger over how Poland, when formally on the victorious side of World War II, could be so harshly hit in the post-war decades.

Now, you say, the emotions have no place in the encyclopaedic articles, and nobody would argue against that, of course. But the emotions is a driving force which complicates the issue, as you don't have to be much of a nationalist patriot to see belittling of Poland's sufferings in edits which in the rest of the world rather would be seen as pedagogically motivated simplifications. If we don't recognize the emotions behind the edit-war, then we can be pretty sure of the defeated party going increasingly bitter against wikipedia. And that is exactly what wikipedia doesn't need.

On the issue at stake, the question of a separate article on the General Government, or not, I think that would be as much appropriate as separate articles on Vichy France and the Free French.
But that's only my personal view, of course.
--Ruhrjung 18:14, 30 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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The current version is IMHO OK. The changes proposed by 145.xxx etc are IMHO caricatures of Polish view, not actual views from Poland. I propose to ignore him altogether. In the same time, GG cannot be merged with historry of Poland 1939-1945. GG covers only part of occupied Poland, and history of Poland in 1939-1945 is not only history of occupied Poland. szopen

Hey guy! Do you really think that all Poles think according to one Polish view? Common, this exact opposition of Polish pluralism. Where are 2 Poles there are 3 opinions. We are no Germans with their concept of leadership. Liberum Veto was very Polish concept. GH

Hehehe... Actually Liberum Veto was not Polish concept. it was quite standard throughout Europe, it only sticked to us... But anyway, "Polish POV" to me does not seem much Polish. I mean, it was too biased even for presenting someone's Pov szopen

You are joking! Many Polish chauvinists have much more nationalists view, then it was written here. I think, if Jews and Germans can have their nationalistic POV (Germans only outside Germany), why Poles should be denied its rights? GH

I'm wondering about GH's comment "We are no Germans with their concept of leadership". I would call it anti-german racism. Germany is a federal state with weak central leadership today. After WWII in Germany a refurbishment took place, that lead to the 1968-generation. Steven 82.82.117.221 14:10, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I am sorry, you are right, I am wrong. I have big respect for achievements of Germans for past 1200 years. My comment should have been like that "We are not like Germans 1933-45, with their concept of leadershipGH

So now we have settled that, why don't one of you quarrelsome Poles find some biographical facts about Zofia Kossak-Szczucka? Where was she born? What did she write? How did she survive Auschwitz? What did she do after the war? There's lots about her on the Net but it's all in Polish. Adam 09:43, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I guess this is not for me, since I doubt i could be called "quarellsome" B-D szopen

All Poles are quarrelsome :) Adam It is called "to incite Rokosz" ( from Rakos fields in Hungary). But you shouldn't be allowed by politicall correctness to use the word ALL.GH

At your request, Adam. Zofia Kossak-Szczucka, Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, Czartak, Zegota. -- szopen