Talk:Finnish alphabet

Does the Finnish alphabet skip the W, as does the Swedish? Egil

Well, it's usually listed in the alphabet, but only used in foreign names, just like Å.

The same could be said about the letters B,Q,Z and X. Only used in foreign names and load words such as "banaani". :) JNi

The letter W is considered to be the same as the letter V (as in Swedish). But they can be separated in a multilingual contex. Acording to the standard SFS 4600. Source [[1] (http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/abc.html)]. JNi

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The article mentions the presence of "Š" and "Ž" in the list of differences between the Finnish alphabet and other Latin based alphabets, but in the actual alphabet given, they don't appear. Should they be in there somewhere, or not? If not, they don't really belong in the list of differences... -- Oliver P. 14:16 24 May 2003 (UTC)

They do hardly belong in the listed alphabet, although you might see that exceptionally. Their inclusion in the list of differences is of course disputable, and that on two levels. The first being your point, the second that the digraph-issue isn't undisputed in Finland. But maybe this is the best place to put it, and the best way to express it, given that the expected reader isn't particularly familiar with Finland and Finnish. -- Johan Magnus 02:27 28 May 2003 (UTC)

Letters "Š" and "Ž" are never listed in Finnish alphabet in Finland. I think they are treated as S and Z respectively when putting things in alphabetical order. They are used in some words such as šakki (chess), which can also be written shakki (or sometimes sakki, which can be confused with another word). The problem with these letters is Finnish keyboards don't have them and neither does ISO 8859-1. (ISO 8859-15 does, but it's quite new.) -- Lakefall 20:20, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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I have three queries about this page, which I just edited. I didn't want to make any changes about these without getting input from Finnish experts/speakers.

(a)

• In collation "W" is equivalent to V.

What is "collation"?

It means "assembling in proper numerical or logical sequence" (WordNet). Basically when you put names in alphabetical order W is equivalent of V. -- Lakefall 19:59, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

(b)

The characters "Ä" and "Ö", although composed of A or O plus an umlaut diacritic, nevertheless are considered independent letters, even though "Ä" and "Ö" represent represent sounds similar to the corresponding sounds in German. In the German system, the umlaut often correlates with distinctions of plurality (such as Rad 'wheel', Räder 'wheels'), tense, mood, etc. No such correlations occur in Finnish.

I'm puzzled by this, because Finnish has vowel harmony. Various suffixes come in pairs containing the vowels Ä/A or Ö/O. Would this not show that the umlaut is a meaningful diacritic in Finnish just like it is in German?

(c)

The reason is that in Finnish orthography, each sound corresponds to one letter, and each letter corresponds to one sound.

Yet the long vowels and consonants of Finnish are spelled with two (identical) letters in sequence. Native speakers, do you feel that aa and tt are one sound or two?

--Opus33 16:59, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by this, because Finnish has vowel harmony. Various suffixes come in pairs containing the vowels Ä/A or Ö/O. Would this not show that the umlaut is a meaningful diacritic in Finnish just like it is in German? No, they're certainly not "letters with diacritics" in Finnish. If we followed this principle in English, G would be called "C with a hook", R and Q would be "P and O with a descender", and so on. The forms Ä and Ö are copied from Swedish, but this can't change the fact that Ä and Ö are distinct, not modified vowels. "Kylmä" (cold) and "kulma" (corner, angle), "päätös" (decision) and "paatos" (pathos) are distinct words, but fot, fötter in Swedish aren't.

Long sounds are pronounced atomically (they are one sound), but in syllablication, long vowels are one unit, long consonants two. Ta-ju-at-te-ko? Long consonants can only appear between two vowels inside words, as consonant pairs, and thus it is consistent to syllablicate katko, katto and Kakko equally (kat-ko, kat-to, Kak-ko). See spoken Finnish on pronounciation. Long vowels form the syllable nucleus, so they're atomic. In cases where a long vowel is followed by a short vowel, after K disappearing in consonant gradation, an apostrophe is added, e.g. raaka -> raa'an. In compound words, a hyphen is added (e.g. maa-ala). --Vuo 03:11, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As a native speaker, I feel that the long wovels & consonants in Finnish are one sound and essentially the same as the short ones, just prolonged in pronunciation. I don't really understand how they could be "two" sounds, as the letters are identical and the language phonetically spelled. --Vesa Sihvonen

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Maybe it should be mentioned that in Finnish language W is pronounced as V and Å is pronounced as O. -- Lakefall 19:59, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Bad redirects

The content of the page was recently moved to Finnish language. That might not be a bad idea in itself, but it was replaced by a pointless article containing just a single link. I think there is a point in having a separate article on the Finnish alphabet, not least since it enables easy comparison with other existing alphabet articles. The alphabet part of the article has been restored, but the segment on ortography remains in the language article.-- Mic 20:37, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Alright, fair enough. Sorry, I was the culprit. Was just trying to resolve the repetition of data in both articles. This works too.--[[User:HamYoyo|HamYoyo (Talk)]] 20:43, May 31, 2004 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the rarely used letters

From the article: "Z is always pronounced identically to TS."

Is this correct? I don't always say Tsorro and it sounds rather silly.

Anyhow, this is my understanding of the pronunciation of some of the rarer letters:

• I think C is pronounced identically to either K or S.
• I think Q is pronounced identically to K.
• Š is sometimes pronounced as SH, but that's not the correct pronunciation.
• W is always pronounced identically to V.
• X is always pronounced identically to KS.
• Z is often pronounced identically to TS, but I might also pronounce it like the English Z.
• I'm not quite sure how I'm supposed to pronounce Ž.
• Å is always pronounced identically to O.

This information might be worth including in the article.. or maybe not. It is already partially there. --Lakefall 10:26, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

None of these sounds are used in Finnish. Thus, their pronunciation is a bit unclear.

• C ought not to be a part of any Finnish words at all, but unfortunately one word, "cesium", has been adopted. Most people pronounce it as "seessium", but in the original language, it was written "caesium" and is supposed to be pronounced "keesium". Few people know this, and this is just an elitist complication.
• Q is not a part of any Finnish words, thus it's pronounced as K when encountered.
• Š is for foreign transcriptions, it's the "shoppailla" SH.
• Z is always, as in German, "TS". Finnish speakers usually can't even pronounce voiced fricatives (Z and Ž) and certainly voicing isn't significant - I could compare this to English-speakers not caring about the contrast of long and short vowels, or Ä and A. Ž is the voiced version of Š, found in Karelian, e.g. kiža = kisa, kiima "competetion, estrus". Russian is another language that uses this sound.
• Å is not a Finnish sound and is mapped to O. --Vuo 13:22, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)