Talk:Elisabeth of Bavaria
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Template:Move Template:Move Per Wikipedia naming conventions; also for strict consistency. Her sister Sophia is listed as Sophia Charlotte Augustine Duchess in Bavaria (comma missing in that article's title), as her maiden name. and Duchess "in" Bavaria a different kettle of fish from a Duchess "of" Bavaria. If anyone disagrees with me on this, then we should change sister Sophia's entry to conform. Mowens35 14:53, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- i think we need a thorough discussion on the naming rules of queen consorts, empress consorts, and monarchs. according to current wikipedia rules, Marie Antoinette should be listed as Maria Antonia, Archduchess of Austria. do I need to go on? this current rule is to say the least, absolute b..... and needs to be changed. honestly, who has ever heard of "Mary of Teck"? anyone who knows that wins a price (Answer:Queen Mary of UK. why it is impossible to list her under that is beyond my comprehension). discussion on changing the rule most welcome Antares911 11:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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Obvious? POV, perhaps?
- had obviously first shot his lover then himself
Why say it's obvious? Is there some controversy surrounding this? Have people suggested he was assasinated? Mr. Jones 15:02, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Alternative image?
There are hundreds of better images of Elisabeth than the one now shown on this page. I originally decided on it because it included (a) the Hofburg in Vienna and (b) her signature ("Sisi"). Now that it has been cropped beyond recognition it is just an inferior portrait of Elisabeth (and of low quality, too). In other words, the whole point of the picture has been done away with. Couldn't we discuss such alterations before carrying them out? I think there is more important work to be done here, for example getting rid of that stupid duplicate article at Elisabeth in Bavaria. KF 10:28 Jan 20, 2003 (UTC)
I've taken the liberty to restore the original image. KF 21:25 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)
Sisi's "illness"
Amateur Elisabeth historian that I am, I find nothing really wrong about the information you have written here. I am just a little disconcerted that you included nothing whatsoever of her illnesses. A BIG part of the reason she traveled around (which, yes, most likely stemmed from her unhappiness with the conditions at court), was the fact that she was often (psychosomatically) ill (though physically, this made no difference; her body's reaction was just as if it had been a real illness). Then again, there is disagreement (lack of knowledge?) among historians as to whether or not she really *could* have been ill during these early years. Anyhow, what began as a way to escape court, to help both body and soul, ended up a life-long passion: the pursuit of "the other". This is portrayed beautifully in the musical "Elisabeth", as you wonderfully described, where she and the character of Death are, ultimately, a type of otherwordly lovers, who, after her long, and, some might say, unhappy life, are finally able to be together. (The musical, by the way, was also quite popular in Japan! I find this quite interesting, what with its setting and storyline, and all.) In short, this is a good, brief, description of her life. Some of the links do not work (I might try and help out with that soon), but you have done her justice, by not painting too rosy a picture of the Tragic Empress (incidentally yet another title of an Elisabeth bio). I would just suggest you add perhaps a paragraph about her illnesses, her struggle with what historians believe was anorexia, as these were her coping mechanisms in a world where she had no power. User Gingerm 7:30pm May 24, 2003
Title of the article
Should not this article be moved to [[Elisabeth of Bavaria]] based on the "use maiden names for consorts" rule? john 19:10 24 May 2003 (UTC)
- Hi Gingerm, in case you're addressing me here: I'm afraid my knowledge of Elisabeth's illnesses is very limited. I suggest you add something to the article: Reading your contribution on this talk page has convinced me that you are better suited for the job. --KF 19:36 24 May 2003 (UTC)
- KF, many thanks. I might actually do that once I have a few moments. Uni is ending just now and I am in the middle of a move. How to fit it in with your description, however, is the challenge (and making it flow, etc.). User Gingerm 11:21 pm May 27, 2003
Alright, let's try this again. By the naming standards for wikipedia, this article should be listed under "Elisabeth of Bavaria". Unless anyone has substantive objections, I am going to move this page to that location. So long as there's a redirect from "Sisi", as well as "Elisabeth of Austria", it shouldn't be hard to find... john 23:44 25 May 2003 (UTC)
- No one knows Elisabeth by the name you suggest. (Just have a look at the bibliography.) Understandably, Bavarians might refer to her as Bavarian, but she got married at 16 and spent the rest of her life as Empress of Austria and, later, Queen of Hungary. I don't know which Wikipedia standard you are referring to, but there must be exceptions. If you feel you have to do it, by all means go ahead.
- By the way, the "of Bavaria" bit might actually be wrong (see the beginning of her biography). All the best, KF 01:14 26 May 2003 (UTC)~
Yes, her title was HRH Elisabeth, Duchess in Bavaria. But I don't want to refer to her as a Duchess, and Elisabeth in Bavaria is weird. As far as naming conventions, I give you:
# Past Royal Consorts are referred to by their pre-marital name or pre-marital title, not by their consort name, as without an ordinal (which they lack) it is difficult to distinguish various consorts; eg, as there have been many queen consorts called Elizabeth and Catherine, use Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon instead of Queen Elizabeth (the Consort of George VI), Catherine of Aragon not Queen Catherine. (from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)). If this is the standard, it should be consistently applied, not just to British royal consorts. For instance, Empress Alexandra Feodorovna is currently at "Alexandra of Hesse", (which is highly dubious given that she was Alix of Hesse, and only Alexandra after her orthodox conversion, but you get the idea) - Using maiden names is also the way that genealogists refer to these people. I agree with you that "Empress Elisabeth of Austria", or what not, would be more familiar to most people, but I think there is a high value to be put on maintaining consistent naming standards. Given that the late Queen Mother is currently at "Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon", which, it seems to me, is considerably less appropriate than "Elisabeth of Bavaria/Elisabeth in Bavaria/Elisabeth Duchess in Bavaria", I think we should try to apply this uniformly. john 01:28 26 May 2003 (UTC)
- Well, I've already made my point. Have you tried to google her name? Also, there is no danger of confusion whatsoever, so for me the rule you quote just does not apply. But I'm not the person to start edit wars with. As far as I'm concerned, you might as well rename the page Elisabeth-Who-Met-Franz-Joseph-in-Ischl. Good luck. KF 01:39 26 May 2003 (UTC)
- I apologize but I must admit I had a giggle at that. User Gingerm
Well, Britannica's article is entitled "Elizabeth". Which doesn't work for wikipedia, since they can have numerous articles with the same title, while we can't. As far as it goes, I would hope that Empress Zita would be listed as "Zita of Bourbon-Parma", even though there's no confusion, and there's probably only one "Zita" who's ever lived, as far as I know. On the other hand, the name "Elisabeth of Austria" actually is doubled. Archduchess Elisabeth of Austria, a daughter of Emperor Maximilian II, was the consort of King Charles IX of France. She would certainly not be called "Elisabeth of France", and thus will have to go under her maiden name. As such, I think Sisi should be moved. john 02:02 26 May 2003 (UTC)
The only thing I would add to this recent increase in Elisabeth-Wikipedia Interest <g> is that, in my humble opinion, she should be named under that which she died; in other words, what do people (nowadays, when she died, during her life, etc.) know her as? I've studied the Kaiserin for 7 years (granted, that's not that long), and I would suggest that her "most recognized" title is Elisabeth Empress of Austria (or a variation thereof). I wouldn't list her under Elisabeth of Bavaria. To me, that would make me think of some Queen or Empress actually OF Bavaria (but yes, she was born at Possenhofen in Bavaria, and her title would have been "in", not "von", a slight but very important change due to the position of her father). A cross indexing, perhaps, yes. An example, Catherine the Great was born Princess Sophie Fredericke Auguste (Sophia Augus Frederika) von Anhalt-Zebst (Germany). No one would suggest she be known by her birth name, nor as Empress Catherine (whose name was Sophia) the Great. Either way this goes, she is RIP and Lucheni is fighting off demons. (just a little joke) User Gingerm 11:31 pm May 27, 2003
Catherine the Great was, however, a reigning monarch. Elisabeth was not, but merely a consort. Further, the general standard is that consorts are known by their birth name. "Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon" for the Queen Mother, not "Queen Elizabeth of the UK", or whatever; "Mary of Teck" for George V's wife, not "Queen Mary of the UK"; "Anne of Austria" for Louis XIII's wife, not "Anne of France", "Alexandra [sic] of Hesse [and the Rhine]," not "Alexandra of Russia". Further, if she is to be "Elisabeth of Austria", that would conflict with a future article that ought, at some point, to be written on Charles IX of France's consort, who was properly called that. Anyway, A cross reference from, "Elisabeth, Empress of Austria" is fine with me, since there's nobody else at that name. As far as the "Duchess in" vs. "Princess of" Bavaria question, I agree that's vexing. However, it seems to me that German prepositions don't have to be literally translated, and she was a member of the royal House of Bavaria, and as such, could be described as Elisabeth of Bavaria. After all, when a German nobleman has "zu" as their noble particle, we don't say "Prince Chlodwig to Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst", we translate it as "of", even though it doesn't exactly mean that. john 23:10 27 May 2003 (UTC)
- Actually propose a whole different name. she was known her whole life and died as Empress Elisabeth of Austria. since all the Habsburgs are listed with their names, I propose Elisabeth of Austria. In Austria she is known as Kaiserin Elisabeth and not Elisabeth in Bayern or whatever, in the spanish-speaking world she is known as Elisabeth Imperatriz for example. Elisabeth of Bavaria is unknown. Antares911 16:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Her death by stabbing: was it pointless? Was it anarchism?
- On 10 September 1898, in Geneva, Switzerland, Elisabeth, aged 61, was stabbed to death with a file in a pointless act of anarchism. Reportedly, her assassin, a young man called Luigi Lucheni, had failed to encounter the man he really wanted to kill and turned on Elisabeth instead as she was walking along the promenade of Lake Geneva about to board a steamship for Montreux. As Lucheni afterward said, "I wanted to kill a royalty. It did not matter which one." Bleeding to death from a puncture wound to the heart, Elisabeth's last words were "What happened to me?"
"Pointless act of anarchism"? Who thinks that's NPOV? --Sam Francis
- I! AFAIK the act doesn't have anything to do with anarchism. From [1] (http://melior.univ-montp3.fr/ra_forum/en/cinema/cocteau_aigle.html): "Lucheni was a forgotten and even despised figure in anarchist circles. He was often called "the stupid one" in anarchist groups, according to police records at the time of the trial." Guaka 20:00, 15 May 2004 (UTC)
Performance of a musical of her life by a Japanese theatre company
Someone added this:
"The musical had been performed in Japan Takarazuka since 1995 by yuki gumi, hoshi gumi, sora gumi, hana gumi. It will be replay in 2005 by tsuki gumi. Toho muscial troop had also been performing this muscial show starring ichiro maki as Elizabeth. It had been a great succcess."
Help me understand what it means. Some of it makes sense, but some of it is hard for me to figure out. Everyking 04:48, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I had a go at making it clearer, though I don't know if it's correct. Mr. Jones 15:20, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Royal consorts and monarchs
hi there. i´m trying to get a discussion going to change the rules on naming consorts, monarchs, etc.. it´s a bit of mess at the moment. maybe you wanna join in and give your opinion? feel free [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_%28names_and_titles%29#Royal_consorts_and_monarchs) cheers Antares911 00:05, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)