Talk:China and the United Nations

An event mentioned in this article is an October 25 selected anniversary.

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Removed "thereby also recognising Taiwan's status as a province of China"

The status of Taiwan as a province was never in question. The ROC administered it as a province, complete with a governor and provincial assembly (until 1998) separate from the national government in Taipei. The text of the resolution does not specifically state that Taiwan is a "province" of the PRC. Taiwan is never mentioned in the resolution. The ROC govt is referred to as " the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek ". --Jiang 20:28, 23 Sep 2003 (UTC)

What's wrong with this statement: "thereby implying the ROC as a renegade entity. "

This is the text from the resolution: "...expel forthwith the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek from the place which they unlawfully occupy at the United Nations and in all the organizations related to it."

So yes, they were expelled. How should we convey this? --Jiang 03:12, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Wouldn't "China's seat in the United Nations" be a more accurate title here? Or are we going to add more on China's involvement in the UN? --Jiang 04:30, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Yes I suppose that would be a more accurate title.

"thereby implying the ROC as a renegade entity." is neither grammatical nor particularly to the point. What the resolution "implied" is surely a matter of opinion. Was the expression "renegade entity" actually used?
On "expelled", this was a rhetorical flourish in the resolution, but it wasn't actually what happened. China wasn't expelled from the UN - all that happened was that the credentials to represent China were transferred from the ROC to the PRC. Dr Adam Carr 04:48, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Sure, "China" wasn't expelled, but the ROC delegation (ie "the representatives of Chiang Kai-shek") was. It wasn't merely the credentials to represent China...why didnt the ROC stay as a regular member?

Maybe "renegade entity" is not the right term, but it needs to be somehow conveyed that they were deemed illegitimate by the endorsement of the PRC as the sole Chinese government. --Jiang 04:59, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

No Jiang, this just isn't correct. No-one was expelled. The vote was to transfer the right to represent China at the UN from the ROC to the PRC. That's all it was, the rhetoric of the Albanian resolution notwithstanding. The ROC people then cleared their desks and left. That's all that happened. Whether the ROC was a "renegade" or "illegitimate" was not a matter within the General Assembly's competence. Those states which still recognised the ROC continued to do so. Dr Adam Carr 06:58, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't see how the resolution can be simply dismissed as simple "rhetoric". If it says "expelled" then how was the ROC not expelled? Were they given x hrs to clear their offices/desks or did they voluntarily quit? Were they given the option to stay as a regular member? What happened? --Jiang 01:29, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

• You have to remember that the mover of the resolution was the Maoist regime in Albania - the motion was full of rhetoric.
• The word "expel" had no real meaning since the vote was not about expelling a member state but about transferring the credentials to represent China from the ROC to the PRC.
• The ROC diplomats, as I recall, immediately left the building and no physical expulsion took place.
• The "option to stay as a regular member" is a meaningless expression. The ROC diplomats were at the UN as representatives of China. Once the General Assembly decided they were not representatives of China they had no status. They could not stay to represent Taiwan because Taiwan is not and never has been a state.
• It is only since 1991 that the ROC has decided to try and gain readmission to the UN by pretending that there is a state of Taiwan, without actually declaring independence or renouncing their claim to be the government of China.

• Adam 01:55, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Why could there not be two representatives for China? The Republic of China and People's Republic of China could both be considered separate states. Was remaining as a non-SC member Republic of China permissible? Could the ROC stay as a member state not representing China (despite having China in its official name)?

Jiang, I will try one more time :)

There could not be two representatives of China because both the PRC and the ROC claimed to be the govt of the whole of China. The options of "two Chinas" or "One China One Taiwan" were not acceptable to either govt at that time. --AC

Just because the overlap of this territorial dispute is so immense does not mean both cannot coexist in the UN, so long as the institution allows them in. UN membership is not restricted by overlapping claims. If one country is claimed by another, yet exercises sovereinty, there's nothing in the UN charter that stipulates that this state is forbidden to join. The problem was with these two states not tolerating each other, not the world not tolerating both. This is why the PRC was not a member until 1971 and the ROC not a member afterwards. The two parties kept each other out. It wasn't illegal to accept both, just impossible. --Jiang 05:58, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The ROC (at least before Chen Shui-bian) never claimed there to be a state of Taiwan. Read the 1998 resolution posted on the page. It claims that the Republic of China is a sovereign state, deserving membership. They were no longer trying to be the sole respresntative for "China". I think the resolution under Chen state "Republic of China (Taiwan)" (with the Taiwan in perenthisis, as is displayed on their government websites).

Taiwan cannot have it both ways. If it wants to be recognised as a state, it must (a) formally renounce its claim to be the government of China and (b) declare independence from China. There are of course good reasons why it can't / won't do these things, but unless it does neither the UN nor any other country can recognise it as a state. --AC

If the Republic of China (not Taiwan) wants to be recognized as a state, both the PRC and ROC must allow the international community to recognize both at the same time (even though they dont recognize each other). This is the way it is with the two Koreas. Territorial claims are irrelevant, as long as these two parties dont force the countries they're working with to swear allegiance to these claims. I dont see how a name change is necessary here. Wouldn't point (a), i.e., renouncing claim over the territory the ROC does not control suffice? Even without this declaration, the ROC let Mongolia in (under some pressure, of course).--Jiang 05:58, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

There are countless overlapping territorial claims in the world. This doesnt stop these states from becoming UN members. --Jiang 04:08, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I can't think of any other circumstance in which two governments have claimed sovereignty over the same country (as opposed to a piece of territory) for a long period of time. This wasn't the case with the two Germanys nor is it the case with the two Koreas. Adam 04:30, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

How so? --Jiang 05:58, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I can't answer a question that non-specific.

Do the two Korea's not claim each others' territory? They certainly dont recognize each other. --Jiang 20:35, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The thing is that both PRC and ROC government(by their constitution) claim that they represent the whole of China. It is not the question about two countries, but two governments. The PRC government claims that it is the sole legal government of China, including mainland, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macao. And ROC government claims that it is the sole legal government of China, including mainland, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macao(and maybe, outer Mongolia). There are only two ways for ROC to enter UN:

1. They enter under the name of ROC, that means UN have to recognise ROC as the sole government of China, and hence "expel" the representative of PRC government(there can't be two governments for one country, right?). In this case, they have to go through the UN General Assembly and have a majority vote(which is unlikely, as few countries would vote against the will of PRC)
2. Or, they enter by the name of Taiwan, i.e. Taiwan enters as an independent nation. But it is not possible because the admission of new members have to go through the security council, and China(seat held by PRC government) is a permenent member and has veto power. --Formulax 10:34, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Or they could still enter as the ROC, but by renouncing their claim to the mainland. The ROC could simply by Taiwan, Penghu, Quemoy, Matsu, etc. A government/state with China in its name does not have to claim the entire entity known as China. Why is changing the name necessary? What about the two Koreas? Two Gernamys? Two Yemens? Why can there not be two Chinas?

They dont have to recognize the ROC's claim over all China if the ROC doesnt force them to. (De facto) China is not one country. The PRC and ROC function as separate countries. They would be officially recognized as such (like the 2 Koreas) if they both tolerted it. The thing is that they dont.

This is all besides the point. Did the resolution expel the ROC? What do the "experts" think? Research? --Jiang 21:47, 2 Oct 2003 (UTC)

*Bangs head on desk* Jiang you're just asking the same questions over and over again, no matter how many times it gets answered. Adam 00:06, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Oh my! Dont bang too hard! My question about the 2 Koreas hasn't been answered yet. Where are the "experts"? --Jiang

Yeah, they can keep the title ROC if they want to, but isn't it the same as #2 above? Any admission of new members to the UN has to go through the security council, and PRC is a permanent member, and WILL use its veto power if ROC wants to apply for membership. I think the difference is that PRC has veto power, while the koreans don't.--Formulax 05:49, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The other difference is that both the two Koreas and the two Germanys were (a) created at the same time, and (b) admitted to the UN at the same time. Both divisions arose from Soviet occupations of parts of those countries at the end of WW2, so neither half had ever administered the territory of the other half (except briefly during the mobile phases of the Korean War). The BRD and DDR were admitted to the UN together, as were the ROK and the DPRK, so they had to accept this if they wanted to be admitted. This is very different to the situation with the ROC and the PRC, in which the ROK had at one time governed the whole of China and had represented the whole of China at the UN. This is why the rival claims of sovereignty are so absolute and irreconcilable. Adam 06:15, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Like I said, the only reason both are not in the UN at the same time is that they are keeping each other out. Just as the two Koreas are forced to accept each other (and dont hold the veto to exclude the other), it would be theoretically possible to have two Chinas in the UN is both accepted the existence of the other, despite their overalapping territorial claims. They would just have to ignore/work with these claims like the two Koreas. If this happened, unlike what you state, Taiwan independence would not be necessary.

The resolution acted as if the ROC was never a member, while it "restored" the PRC even though it was never a member. What it did to the ROC needs to be made more clear. The ROC did not just hang there. I dont think it was given the option to stay. If not, what? --Jiang 06:30, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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OK Jiang this is going to be my last attempt to explain this to you:

The official position of both Beijing and Taipei is that:

• China is one country
• Taiwan is a province of China
• Only one goverment can represent China at the UN
• There is no such country as Taiwan, so Taiwan cannot be a member of the UN

The only point on which they disagree is which of them is the single legitimate government of China.

It is true that the Taipei government no longer asserts that it is the government of the whole of China, and says that it wants to join the UN. But it knows perfectly well that this makes no sense.

Until the Taipei government formally renounces its claim to be the government of China, and declares that Taiwan (under whatever name) is an independent country, it cannot, even in theory, join the UN. A place which is not a country, and which does not even claim to be a country, cannot join the UN.

That is my last comment on this subject. Adam 07:16, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I quote myself: Or they could still enter as the ROC, but by renouncing their claim to the mainland. The ROC could simply by Taiwan, Penghu, Quemoy, Matsu, etc. A government/state with China in its name does not have to claim the entire entity known as China. Why is changing the name necessary?

Although either ignoring or renoucning claims by both parties is necessary, it makes little sense to have to change the name of the country. The name is irrelevant. The Republic of China is already an independent country. There is no need to declare another one.

Somehow, I feel this has long become a politcal "debate". I guess it is. --Jiang 07:21, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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It is not clear what the "whole of China" means. Does this include Tibet or outer Mongolia, both of which the ROC claims? What specificially is the ROC to renounce? Just renounce its sovereignty over Xinjiang and therefore satisfy this condition? Using the term Mainland China makes it much more precise. --Jiang 19:24, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Huh? Someone explain this...

Article (wikification stripped): "The PRC has been sparing in its use of the Security Council veto, only using it four times: in 1972 to veto the admission of Bangladesh, in 1972, in conjunction with the Soviet Union to veto a resolution on the ceasefire in the Six-Day War, in 1997 to veto ceasefire observers to Guatemala, and in 1999 to veto an extension of observers to Macedonia."

OK...I get all except the Six-Day War one. Someone want to explain the whys and wherefores of that veto? --Penta 22:59, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Misleading sentence

The ROC government withdrew to the island province of Taiwan (also retaining 
several islands of Fujian), where it has continued to exist ever since.

The sentence above implies when ROC government retreat to Taiwan, the government already acquired the sovereignty of Taiwan. This is a misleading POV. Taiwan was de jure part of Japan until 1952. ROC's move of establishing a province on the island before 1952 is illegal and thus the sentence sheerly represents the Chinese governments' point of view and ignores the fact that Taiwan did not belong to ROC at that time. If my edit does not satisfy your grammatical standard, please correct it and fix the POV in your own way.Mababa 01:39, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Whether de jure or de facto, the legality of establishing a province there is not asserted or implied in the sentence. What is implied is that a province existed/exists there (it does does not need to be de jure). There was an administration called the Taiwan Provincial Government that had/has jurisdiction over Taiwan island and the Pescadores. That's all that needs to happen for us to call it a province. Saying otherwise is reading too much into the sentnece. --Jiang 04:00, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

However, establishing a province with legal sovereignty is norm whereas the situation here is unusual. Though the sentence does not explicitly imply the legality, for a lay person or outstander to read the article, one would easily assume the sovereignty had already established in 1949. Thus, I tried to fix this potential POV by using Taiwan to replace the province of Taiwan. Yes, the Provincial Government has/had jurisdiction over the island as a occupation force, not as a de jure sovereignty authority. I still believe this somehow has to be modified so that the nuance would be addressed.Mababa 04:30, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sovereignty was established, whether it was de facto or de jure depending on opinion. We are not implying either way. This would almost amount to deleting all references to "Republic of China" or "Israel" because there is significant dispute over their de jure authorities. --Jiang 05:03, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is surely a moot question. I will accept the current version of text as people interested in Taiwan question probably would have some extent of exposure of the debate. However, I still recommend to remove the province and use Taiwan directly to avoid the potential sovereignty POV. Please consider my suggestion and make your decision on what to do about it. If you want me to remove the NPOV sign myself, just let me know. I apologize for raising a debate seemed to be frivolous. I still stand by my suggestion though.Mababa 04:47, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here's the problem with saying that Taiwan was the de-jure part of Japan untill 1952. One could use this argument to imply that North and South Korea are de-jure parts of Japan untill 1951. Tell that to the Koreans and see how they respond. Allentchang 17:11, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I do not know. Perhaps you can tell me. I assume that they would be happy to hear about that the SFPT stipulated the independence of Korea. On the otherhand, I am not quite sure if they would be happy to hear about PRC's unqual treaty doctrine and the nullification of Sino-japnasese treaties in Treaty of Taipei since these claims will make Korea fall into the hands of China again. If you have any Korean friends, perhaps you can give us some insight on how they feel to PRC and ROC's claim. Fortunately, SFPT nullified PRC and ROC's claims already.Mababa 00:47, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)