Talk:Charles de Gaulle
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I believe the quote "at sixty-seven, he had no intention to begin a career as a dictator" is wrong as he certainly would not refer to himself in the third person. On Google, there are also no links to "no intention to begin a career as a dictator," suggesting that this is either a totally unique translation or an apocryphal or simply inaccurate quote.
- This sentence has been pronounced at the hotel d'Orsay on May 19, 1958 during a famous press conference. The exact sentence is : "Croit-on qu'à 67 ans, je vais commencer une carrière de dictateur ?" ; and by the way, yes, sometimes he was referring to himself in the third person, even referring to himself as "De Gaulle"...
It's worth mentioning that there is also an aircraft carrier with this name.
Debré was the actual author of the text but the political leader who commissioned the text and decided the general framework is always described as 'the author' because he had the text written, told the authors what to include and ultimately decided the shape of the text, usually exercising a veto over what he wanted in or out of his text. Hence in Ireland, for example, the constitution was actually written by John Hearne and Mícheál Ó Gríobhtha, but it is always described as Eamon de Valera's constitution, never Hearne's and Ó Griobhtha's. And Michael Collins is described as the author of the 1922 constitution because it was drafted under a committee under his nominal chairmanship. The same is true of all other constitutions; the author of the text is not described as the author of the constitution, the political leader who ordered its preparation is the person described as the 'author of the constitution', with whomever did the actual drafting called 'author of the text of 'x's constitution'. It is a standard method of reference. FearÉIREANN 20:32, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
The Fifth French Republic constitution is neither referred as "la Constitution du Général de Goulle" in France. No French would wrote "de Gaulle a écrit la Constitution", plutôt "de Gaulle a inspiré la Constitution" ou "de Gaulle a voulu la Constitution". This has great sense in the French political system : the President has no legislative powers. The Prime Minister can propose a law to the Parliament, not the President. Constiutionally the Constitution was propsed for vote to the parliament by Michel Debré. Ericd 20:42, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)
You are missing the point completely. The issue is not who procedurally introduced the constitution. Michael Collins was dead when his constitution was introduced. A constitution is described as being by the person who was responsible, theoretically for its preparation. The French constitution is always described internationally as being de Gaulle's constitution, never Debré's; he was merely the author of the text, just as de Valera is described as being the author of the Irish constitution, even though when it came to parliamentary debates it was shown that he had a poor understanding of what was in it and was it meant and the text was produced in two languages by two different people, while Collins rarely even attended the Committee under his nominal chairmanship that drafted the 1922 constitution and was dead when it was in fact introduced by W. T. Cosgrave, who is never ever described as its author. Under political science, the titles "author of the constitution" and "author of the text of the constitution" are not always the same people. Political scientists refer to Nehru's constitution, de Valera's constitution, Karamanlis' constitution, de Gaulle's constitution etc even though they may never have written a word and even have never been involved in its legislative enactment, simply because they may have laid down the perameters to the drafter as to what it should contain, may have been the founder of the new state or republic or may simply have been the personification or the era in which the drafting took place. FearÉIREANN 10:18, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I've cut : "His strong nationalism and a certain level of economic weakness were used against him. " The French economy was really strong around 1965 the return of the pieds-noirs instead of bringing recession give a huge boost to the economy. Reason for the failure od de Gaulle are complex in 1965 among them : Jean Lecanuet and François Mitterand made a very good canpaign and made good use of TV while de Gaulle didn't use his whole TV time. The supporter of French Algeria refused to vote for de Gaulle that was considered as a traitor. Supporter of European Union voted for Lecanuet.... Ericd 15:26, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Was de Gaulle influenced by J.F.C. Fuller ? Ericd 15:57, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I read somewhere that de Gaulle was an Intelligence agent in Syria for a part of his pre-WWII carreer, but I don't have reliable sources. Did someone know more ? Ericd 10:35, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I've added his career in Poland. It's strange that this campaign, which so heavily influenced him (in this campiang he sketched his first ideas), was not mentioned in the article.
Tobby I'm tempted to revert you edit. IMO the communist party position wasn't driven by propangada purposes. Many communists were really fearing the advent of a repressive military regime at that time (they were several militants killed at Charonne Station before). Ericd 20:58, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I have made the following changes to the article: 1- I have deleted the middle names of de Gaulle at the beginning of the article. Middle names are NEVER EVER used in France, except in the most formal documents such as mariage certificates and passports, but at any rate they never appear in dictionaries and encyclopedia. 2- I have added one section about the formative years 3- I have explained more clearly the whereabouts of his departure to London in June 1940 4- I have provided the exact quote about starting a carrer as a dictator at age 67 5- I have broken up the Fifth Republic section into three sections. I have written most of the Politique de grandeur section 6- I have corrected several small factual errors all throughout the article 7- I have added some pictures Hardouin 00:13, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Why take out information? He has the middle names. For many people, middle names are rarely used in English, and yet we still list them here. john k 05:06, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
If so, then can you explain me why such French historical figures as Georges Pompidou, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing or François Mitterrand have no middle names listed here on Wikipedia? If you were to add the middle names to all the French people on Wikipedia, good luck ! I think adding all the middle names is actually counterproductive: you have the delusion of informing better people, but you actually confuse people who are not familiar with the nitty-gritties of France. People end up not knowing what is actually the real name of the person, in that case Charles. I would also like to point out to the fact that in France some people are not known by their first christian name, but by their second or third ! So listing all the christian names leads to not knowing for sure what the real name is. In that case, is it André de Gaulle? Joseph de Gaulle? It's not a problem for French people who know who de Gaulle is. But it may be a problem for international readers not familiar with the character. If a US high school kid is gonna use this article for a paper or presentation, he might find it bewildering. Finally, you cannot deny the fact that middle names are much more widely used in the English speaking world than in France. They are part of the name, such as George W. Bush. You would never find Charles A.J.M. de Gaulle, nobody writes like that in France. If you have a look at the official website of the presidential palace in Paris, which lists all the former French presidents, you'll see they do not put middle names. Encyclopédie Larousse does not put middle names. Encyclopaedia Universalis does not put middle names. Anyway, long explanation here, but maybe we will set precedent. lol Hardouin 10:20, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- You seem to be implying that middle names are used regularly in other countries, but they aren't. Some US politicians use middle initials because they think it makes them look more impressive (in GWB's case it's also to distinguish him from his father, presumably), but most people don't use their middle names or initials at all (I have two middle names and I never use them, and I don't know anyone who uses more than one Christian name or a Christian name and an initial). I doubt many people know that Tony Blair is called "Anthony Charles Lynton Blair", and no one would ever call him that, and yet that's what's at the beginning of his article. And the suggestion that people wouldn't know which name is used when it's the only one in the title of the article is a little odd, to say the least. As to why other articles don't have middle names, it's probably more to do with people not knowing them than with a deliberate decision to leave them out (and if French sources are being as unhelpful as you say, I can't blame them for not knowing). An encyclopaedia is supposed to supply information, and I can't think of any possible disadvantage that supplying a person's full name could bring about. Proteus (Talk) 12:36, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Well, there are people who use several initials - AJP Taylor, for instance. Lord Halifax was known as EFL Wood before he got his peerage. And so on. But, yeah, basically. john k 17:41, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- It seems to me we are like the Byzantines arguing over the gender of angels while the Turks were besieging Constantinopolis. So I will not add endlessly to that thread. I will just say this, with a totally un-controversial tone: I am understanding the goal of Wikipedia is to be a world multilingual and multicultural encyclopedia, reflecting the cultures and customs of all the countries of the world, and not merely yet another "anglo-saxon" encyclopedia. Thus, as I have noticed, names are always listed as is customary in each native country: English and American names of people list middle names, as is customary there (e.g.: Franklin Delanoe Roosevelt, John Fitzgerald Kennedy), Chinese names of people appear with the family name first as is customary in China (hence Mao Zedong... if you were to write this name following the English pattern of first middle last name that would give: Zedong Runzhi Mao or Dong Ze Mao, depending what you consider a middle name here !). So, logically, I thought French names of people should appear as is customary in France, i.e. without middle names. Of course, I agree an encyclopedia should list as much information as possible, BUT ONLY information that is relevant to the reader! I mean, if I follow you, why didn't we also include de Gaulle's height? color of eye? blood group? exact amount of military decorations received? street address of birth place? The list could go on. In France there is a saying: "Trop d'information tue l'information" ("Too much information kills information").
- Of course, the whole question is then what's relevant to the reader, and what's not, and who decide it. That's what the people in charge of Wikipedia should figure out, no?
- Finally, to finish confusing people, in the rare instances when a French full name is written, it DOES NOT contain hyphens. So the full name listed in the article is wrong anyway. Hyphens in French are used only to show that a christian name is a compounded name, e.g. "Jean-Philippe" is ONE christian name, "Jean Philippe" are TWO christian names. One example to help understand, my grand aunt full name was (I delete the family name) "Marie-Antoinette Paule Ernestine", she had thus 3 christian names, and in most occasions of life she went by her first name "Marie-Antoinette" only. So the full name of de Gaulle should in any case be written "Charles André Joseph Marie de Gaulle". But maybe we can solve our angels' gender controversy by starting the article like this:
- Charles de Gaulle, full name: Charles André Joseph Marie de Gaulle (November 22, 1890...
- Does anyone agree? Hardouin 18:30, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia standard seems to put the most often used name as title, to cite the full name first within in the article body and the colloquial name second (sometimes not even citing the most used name at all in the upper page sum-up, since it is in the title, after all). Examples? Bill Clinton and Tony Blair of Anglo-Saxon nations, but also others like Gerhard Schröder. I would think this article should follow that custom. --Liberlogos 00:05, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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"C'était de Gaulle"... or was it De Gaulle?
I remember having read in a French magazine a letter from a reader asking why the last edition wrote the general's name the way they did. The reader pointed out that the name was of dutch roots (I believe that's what was written) and that the dutch tradition commanded the other spelling. The publication answered that, although the reader was right, the general himself had always insisted on the other spelling. Now, I believe the spelling prefered by the general was mentioned as De Gaulle, and the dutch spelling was de Gaulle. Is there a De Gaulle expert or Dutch language expert reading this who can come to our rescue? If the general prefered De Gaulle, I certainly think the main article should be titled as such and the alternate spelling be the redirect page. --Liberlogos 23:52, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- De Gaulle's name is not of Dutch origins. I know it is a die-hard legend in France, probably because de Gaulle was born in Lille near Dutch speaking territories, and a name starting with "de" is typical in Dutch, but actually it is his mother's side who was from the area of Lille, NOT his father's family, from whom he owes his family name. The "de Gaulle" are a very old family of aristocratic decent, originating in Normandy in the 14th century, local knights of the king of France defending Normandy against the English during the War of Hundred Years (History is ironical I guess!). This fact was confirmed recently by de Gaulle's son in the book he published about his father last year. "de" in French means "of" and is typical of French aristocratic names, equivalent to Von in Germany, and Van in Holland. During the French Revolution, like many aristocrats, the de Gaulle family changed their name into Gaulle, without the "de", to avoid problems with the revolutionaries. After the revolution they put the "de" again. In France, de Gaulle's name is listed under letter G, and not under letter D. This is customary for aristocratic names. But the family was always discreet about its aristocratic origins, actually I think many French people would be surprised to know that de Gaulle is really an aristocratic name (many names starting with "de" in France are fake, and not aristocratic at all). It's only with the book published by his son last year that the point was made clear.
- 193.114.111.34 19:09, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Third country to launch a satellite after US and USSR in 1965?
There may be a problem with ambiguity in regards to the statement that France was the third country in the world to launch a satellite after the US and USSR.
Canada launched its Alouette I research satellite on Sept 29, 1962 on a Thor/Agena rocket, three years prior to the French satellite.
References: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/reg/7/millennium/alouette/alouette_impact.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alouette_1
Although the satellite was completely Canadian in design and development, the rocket was of US origin and the launch was at Vandenburg.
So ... if France used its own delivery system, then yes it was the third country to do so; but the statement should be modified to reflect this statement. Otherwise, the modification should reflect that France had the fourth satellite in orbit, not the third.
Regards, George Cummings (Montreal)
Diamant Rocket + Asterix satellite. Honestly the satellite was very small and not very useful IMO, but I think France was the third country to built a delivery system. Ericd 22:13, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- The French satellite was called A-1 (standing in a typical military terse style for Armée-1, but later nicknamed Astérix by the media), and was launched by French technicians using a French-designed rocket of the Diamant family. The launch pad was temporarily in the Sahara Desert in newly independent Algeria, and was later moved to French Guiana. So you cannot really compare this with the Canadian satellite which was launched by US technicians using a US rocket. To me the sentence "France was the third country in the world to launch a satellite after the US and USSR" clearly implies that the rocket was French. As a matter of comparison, there have been many French astronauts who went into space on Russian or US rockets, but never on a French or European rocket so far. Nobody would write that France have launched some men into space. So to me the sentence clearly implies the use of a French delivery system. Now if you can think of a cleverer way to rephrase the sentence (without being too convoluted), please let us know. Hardouin 13:17, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Le Machin
From the article : "De Gaulle is famously quoted for nicknaming the United Nations le Machin ("the Thing")."
The Thing = La Chose le Machin is more pejorative... It could also be translated as "the Device" who has a better idea ? Ericd 19:35, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- "Thing" in English can be used in quite an informal context, as is "machin" in French. "Device", on the other hand, is a rather formal word. I don't think it is suitable. Hardouin 11:01, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Is that portrait new to this page? I don't recall seeing it before. Rhymeless 03:48, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Naming issues
"Most avenues or streets which are called after de Gaulle use this term (e.g. avenue du général de Gaulle), but there are some exceptions, such as Charles de Gaulle Airport (aéroport de Roissy-Charles de Gaulle). In left-wing municipalities, when naming streets, Charles de Gaulle is sometimes preferred over général de Gaulle, a term that has always irked the left, even though it is used all across the political spectrum nowadays. People who itch at the military, or who want to distance themselves from de Gaulle, use Charles de Gaulle instead of général de Gaulle. Charles de Gaulle is supposedly more neutral, but général de Gaulle is now so widely accepted that using Charles de Gaulle in conversation definitely carries a feeling of distance, or covert criticism. One can guess the feeling of someone toward Gaullism simply by watching whether they use général de Gaulle or Charles de Gaulle."
I think this is quite exaggerated and POV, don't you think? David.Monniaux 05:15, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Montreal speech edits
I have reverted all the recent edits about the Montreal speech by De Gaulle. The information is still available in the History of this article for those wishing to copy and paste it in the relevant articles about Québec and Canada, or even to create a dedicated article to that speech. More generally, could people stop adding lines after lines of political edits about that speech? With all due respect to Canada, still the Montreal speech is an extremely EXTREMELY minor event in the overall life of De Gaulle. To have this article using as much space for this speech as for the role of De Gaulle in 1940 is simply grotesque. So if English and French Canadians want to settle accounts, can they please do that outside of this article? Thank you. Hardouin 00:08, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Images
Most of the images currently on this page lack info and are tagged as "unverified". Anyone who can identify the source and/or copyright status of any of these images is encouraged to do so. (Those unfamiliar with Wikipedia image use policy can read Wikipedia:Images and associated pages.) Thanks, -- Infrogmation 06:59, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Page move discussion
{from Wikipedia:Requested moves)
Charles de Gaulle → Charles De Gaulle
The name is not French nobility (like "Armand-Jean du Plessis de Richelieu" for instance), but a germanic name. The "De" is not the French preposition "of", but a for of Germaic "der" which is part of the name (actually "De Gaulle" means "der Wahl", "the wall"). The capital "D" is in order -- that's also why one says "De Gaulle did that..." instead of just "Gaulle did that..." which would be in order in case of nobility ("Richelieu did that..." is the proper form for nobility). Rama 23:06, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. Your premise is incorrect. See the article's talk page, see French Wikipedia's article which is as http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_de_Gaulle, see also a quick google for de gaulle site:fr (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=de+gaulle+site%3Afr) Jooler
- The French page does mention that the correct spelling is "De Gaulle", though it might be often (mis)spelled with "de"; the book which is spoken about in the talk page is not cited (it might be De Gaulle, mon père, but I haven't found anything about this on the web), and everywhere I have checked nobility is infirmed. The autoritative site http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org make not mention of this. I wonder wether this mention on the talk page was not a hoax. In any case, if there was indeed a case for nobility, I'd find it very supsicious that no mention at all would be made on the Franch wikipedia -- the articl is quite complete. Rama 23:59, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose A quick google news search suggests that, with the exception of Middle East sources, English speaking news sources nearly universally spell the name with a lower case "d". Appeal to French orthography and etymology notwithstanding, his name is usually rendered in English as "Charles de Gaulle". A redirect already exists at Charles De Gaulle to catch the occasional person who knows and uses the French spelling. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 05:27, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose In nearly 40 years of reading about the man, I have never seen it suggested the upper-case "D" is correct except at the beginning of a sentence when referring to him. Also note that the name of CDG airport on the Aeroports de Paris website (www.adp.fr) is "Charles de Gaulle". -- Arwel 03:18, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose - this is an argument from correctness, which may or not be accurate (first I've heard of it), but in any case clearly loses out to Wikipedia convention on common usage. Rd232 13:19, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. He is "de Gaulle" in both French and English sources. Yes, "de Gaulle" is a surname not a title of nobility, but surnames can and often do start with lower case letters. Gdr 14:05, 2005 Jan 8 (UTC)
- Oppose. The French page doesn't mention that the correct spelling is "De Gaulle". It written that "De Gaulle" is more "logical". I'm pretty sure that de Gaulle was written "de Gaulle" on his birth certificate thus legally this is his name. Ericd 22:12, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Oppose. Rama, the mention on this talk page above, dated July 15, 2004, which I wrote, is not a hoax! Thank you. The de Gaulle family had indeed aristocratic origins, which the son of de Gaulle confirmed in the book De Gaulle, mon père. The oldest known ancestor is Richard de Gaulle who was an equerry of King Philip Augustus of France, and who was enfeoffed in Normandy in 1210, very near the border of Ile-de-France. Around the time of Joan of Arc there's a Jehan de Gaulle who fought during the Battle of Agincourt. The exact origin of the name is not quite clear (there's a genealogical review in France (Généalogie-Magazine) that had a dossier about de Gaulle's ancestry, and this maybe would give a final answer, but I don't have it with me). However, I don't see how the name de Gaulle could come from Dutch origins, since the family was in Normandy since remote times. Yes, de Gaulle was born in Lille, in previously Dutch speaking area, but it is his mother's family who was from French flanders (formerly Dutch speaking), not his father's family who has no connection with Flanders whatsoever. Hardouin 16:33, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
article used as a source
Check out this letter (http://www.dailytexanonline.com/global_user_elements/printpage.cfm?storyid=847593) to the editor of The Daily Texan. The writer uses this article as a stick to beat the paper for inaccuracies. To qoute, "Next time you accuse an individual of being a mass murder, perhaps you should bother checking your facts first. Perhaps a quick read through Wikipedia.com's articles on "de Gaulle" and "the Algeria Conflict" would have clarified the facts for you.". pamri 07:29, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Neutratlity
With the recent edits by user ProhibitOnions (a French bashing screenname?), the article is reflecting more and more personal points of view. ProhibitOnion seems to have a deep hatred for de Gaulle. I personaly think that in this article we should neither worship nor denigrate the personality and actions of de Gaulle. We should just try as much as possible to present his life and his actions in a factual neutral way. All the comments about how much people in the UK and in the US disliked the policy of de Gaulle are a bit out of place. There are about 180 countries in the world. If we start to list all the feelings toward de Gaulle in all these 180 countries, then this article will become a real mess. As far as I know, when we have articles about Margaret Thatcher or Ronald Reagan, these articles do not tell us what Chinese, German, or French people thought about these two leaders. So why should the de Gaulle article list what UK and US public opinions thought about de Gaulle? If we start listing public opinions feelings, then we could write something about how Brazilian, Mexican, or Argentinian public opinions loved de Gaulle frequent snubing at the US, or how African and Asian public opinions supported his rejection of a bipolar world. The world is not just made up of the US and the UK. Hardouin 12:44, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I also find very partial all those edit about the minor role played by the Free French forces and the fact that the UK a USA were the liberators of France. So what ? None of the contributors to this article will deny this. The Free French forces fough with with the Allied and de Gaulle is more to praise than to blame for this. Ericd 19:19, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Hardouin, my username stems from my own dislike of onions, the vegetable. I hadn't thought of any connection to the Hexagon until now. Whatever the case, the article is a current featured article candidate, so whatever I added can't have been that bad.
As far as any "personal" "hatred" of CDG goes, it is hardly "neutral" to describe many of his actions and statements without pointing out that they often had strong repercussions among France's notional allies; certainly, outside France he was, and remains, a controversial figure. Among his actions that brought this about: Lecturing the Americans about Vietnam, keeping the British out of the EEC, withdrawing from the NATO command structure but staying in the alliance, telling Quebeckers to separate from Canada, switching sides in the Arab-Israeli conflict, and claiming to be a "counterweight" to the western alliance while being part of it.
Do these actions have something in common? Yes: They were gesture politics. Many of these shows of independence were designed for a domestic audience and widely applauded, and from a French perspective this may seem to be the end of the story. But his audacious political statements were often regarded as empty, and usually counterproductive, abroad. In the case of the Montreal speech, which Hardoin deleted at one point because it was an ostensibly "minor" issue, it was not seen that way in Canada, where a visiting head of state was seen to be encouraging a separatist movement. This was one of the few occasions in which the French press later wondered whether he'd gone too far; and perhaps it was analyzed too much in Canada (he had failed to liberate France, so he wanted to liberate Quebec instead; the usual "spitting on the graves of France's liberators"; etc. etc.). But it was, for one of France's closest allies, the moment for which he will be remembered.
It's hard to think of a country outside France where the consensus on CDG is overwhelmingly positive; for the Poles, he was the brave soldier and brilliant strategist who helped them defend their independence against the Soviets in 1920, but he was quick to abandon them (the "First Ally" that had never collaborated) to the Soviets as WWII ended and to claim France, not Poland, as one of the victors. To other countries of Central Europe, he was happy to cozy up to the Soviet Union, seemingly accepting the USSR's "sphere of influence" (even if the issue was more complicated and France was ultimately an anti-communist power). For the British, he was the heroic general who stood up to the Nazis, but he was also the one who told the French they had liberated themselves, and who later kept Britain out of the EEC for a mixture of ideological and commercial reasons; to the Americans he was an unreliable ally whose talk of a "counterweight" was little more than bluster, but hardly helpful in the face of the communist threat.
Whether these positions are "correct" is not the point, and few denied he was a savvy politician. But, as you point out, he frequently "snubbed" the US, Britain, and other allies, sometimes playing to rather base prejudices in other countries.
Hardoin mentions other important political figures: If the articles about Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, and the like did not point out there was great resistance to their policies, that they were at times broadly unpopular abroad, and that they often followed a course that went against the conventional wisdom, then these articles would be incomplete.
--ProhibitOnions 21:13, 2005 May 20 (UTC)
Vietnam war
The fact that the Vietnam war has it roots in French colonialism is out of topic there :
De Gaulle has no role in the Indochina war that was started by the Four Republic a regime that de Gaulle always considered as inefficient.
De Gaulle policy was to give independance to the colonies. In fact its reported by Pierre Messmer than he stated something like "no country can maintain a empire in the long run, even USSR".
In no way the French embarked the USA in their colonial war. What the US did in Vietnam had nothing to do with a restoration of the French Empire. I don't see why France should have supported them.
The Four Republic governements met very few support from USA when they stated that they were "fighting the comunism".
I pretty sure that de Gaulle was conviced that the Vietnam was unwinable for the USA, why should he support something that he considered as a mistake ?
Ericd 17:56, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Uuuh? The war in Indochina was heavily supported by the US, as far as I know. David.Monniaux 19:05, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Read the paragraph again; it says that CDG's Phnom Penh speech ultimately may have been right about the pointlessness of the war. However, it displayed a familiar lack of tact, as many in the US felt they were "trying to clean up the mess the French left behind." --ProhibitOnions 22:14, 2005 May 20 (UTC)
The constitution and the colonies
- The colonies (Algeria was officially a part of France, not a colony) were given the choice between immediate independence and the new constitution. All colonies voted for the new constitution except Guinea, which thus became the first French African colony to gain independence, at the cost of the immediate ending of all French assistance.
Is that exact? I thought that the colonies had 3 choices:
- stay inside France (see the establishment of DOMs and TOMs)
- be outright independent
- be in the French Community (a short-lived attempt at a French Commonwealth). David.Monniaux 08:52, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Some changes
I think it would be accurate to re-examine the following points, which are dubious according to me : - "Their social ideas were also more liberal". I think "liberal" is not suited for such a family - in French, De Gaulle would not be said as being a "libėral", and in English neither -. "labor-friendly" would be better.
- "He was promoted to major and offered possibility of a further career in Poland". Are you sure that after being a captain, he was promoted major ? Major is a lower rank than captain ...
- "Prime Minister Paul Reynaud promoted him provisional brigadier general". "Brigadier general" sounds weird, since this was not used for a general since the royalty. Moreover, "brigadier" is a very low rank in the police. "Général de brigade" would be better.
- "De Gaulle was elected President by the parliament with 78% of the vote". He was not elected by the parliament, but by a special electoral body composed of "great voters" (delegates of city councils, "conseillers généraux" and so on).
- "Internationally he rebuffed both the United States and the Soviet Union." This is going too far ; he was not between West and East, but he wanted France to be independent INSIDE the western world. Anti-communism was a steady tread in gaullism.
- "Although his supporters would argue that subsequent British ambivalence toward the EU justified his fears, many Britons took De Gaulle's "non" as a deep insult. British commentators have suggested that Britain's later lack of enthusiasm for the EU was due precisely to it being a project to which Britain was not invited during its formative years. As a result of De Gaulle's snub, it is asserted, instead of genuinely embracing all European democracies, the EU became a platform tailor-made for French ambitions but serving British needs poorly." This is repeted twice (1958-1962 and 1962-1968) and is unaccurate : Britain WAS invited to the EU during its formative years, but Churchill, though a supporter of the EU idea, refused, for he thought it was a "continental" thing. The end of the passage is over-simplistic UKIP propaganda.
- On the redaction of the constitution : CDG was not president at this time, but President of the Ministers Council (Prime Minister) and Debré was Minister of Justice. The constitution was a compromise between both of them (Debré wanted a British-style parliamentary system, CDG wanted a strong president), and the project was co-writed by a consultative committee. So I would not say that CDG "wrote" the constitution, but "inspired" it (esp. through the "Discours de Bayeux", a famous speech in 1946, rejecting the constitution of the 4th Republic. This speech is the description of De Gaulle's constitutional ideas which took shape in 1958, so it would very relevant to mention it.)
- In the passage about CDG and the EU, it would be accurate to include a sentence about the "politique de la chaise vide" (or empty-chair policy) in the EU ministers council ; France being unrepresented, it blocked the EU institutions. CDG wanted a more intergouvernmental and less federalist-style management in the EU institutions.
- in the passage about May 1968, I would mention the "Accords de Grenelle", which ended the workers strike which solidarized with the students, so the students were alone in strike again. (labour-employers agreements about salaries and trade-unions representation inside the companies to end the general strike).
- The constitution and the colonies. Oversea territories voted for the referendum about the constitution : - if the answer was "no", it meant the immediate independence (Ghana) ; - if the answer was "yes", then the local assembly had to choose between the integration in the French Republic (DOM-TOM) or the associate status inside the French Union (short-lived).
It's the first time I participate to a discussion in a Wikipedia article, so I would like somebody more into the system to check the changes I propose and to make them.
- Brigadier general is the English translation of général de brigade. It ought to be left as it is. On the other hand, I totally agree with what you say about de Gaulle and British entry into the UK. The article was much more neutral on that point before, until the apparently anti-de Gaulle user ProhibitOnions completely rewrote the chapter about de Gaulle presidency, and wrote the entire passage about British entry that you quoted. It needs to be reverted back to the original neutral article. Hardouin 17:16, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Please see my remarks in the passage above. If you have a better way to phrase the British cynicism about the EU as a "French project" please do so. If you read the passage again, it is not "UKIP propaganda" but an attempt to express in a few words one common, and in this case pertinent, form of British disillusionment with the EEC, which was voiced frequently around the time of accession and before the 1975 British referendum on remaining within the union. --ProhibitOnions 21:24, 2005 May 20 (UTC)
de Gaulle's most infamous quote
Among the French (I can say this since I am French myself), most of us know de Gaulle's most infamous quote that is sometimes used to dishonour him or to try to legitimate harsh actions against immigration: « C'est très bien qu'il y ait des Français jaunes, des Français noirs, des Français bruns. Ils montrent que la France est ouverte à toutes les races et qu'elle a une vocation universelle. Mais à condition qu'ils restent une petite minorité. Sinon la France ne serait plus la France. Nous sommes quand même avant tout un peuple européen de race blanche, de culture grecque et latine, et de religion chrétienne. Essayez d'intégrer de l'huile et du vinaigre. Agitez la bouteille. Au bout d'un moment, ils se sépareront de nouveau. Les Arabes sont les Arabes, les Français sont les Français. Vous croyez que le corps français peut absorber dix millions de musulmans qui demain seront vingt millions et après-demain quarante ? Si nous faisions l'intégration, si tous les Arabes et les Berbères d'Algérie étaient considérés comme Français, comment les empêcherait-on de venir s'installer en métropole alors que le niveau de vie y est tellement plus élevé ? Mon village ne s'appellerait plus Colombey-les-Deux-Églises, mais Colombey-les-Deux-Mosquées !» Which means: « It's a very good thing that there are yellow French people, black French people and brown French people. It's a sign that France is open to all races and that it has a universal vocation. But on condition they stay a minority. If not, France wouldn't be France anymore. After all, we are an European people from white race, Greek and Latin culture, and Christian religion. Try to mix oil and vinegar together. Shake the bottle. After a while, they get separated again. The Arabs are the Arabs, the French are the French. Do you believe that the French nation is able to integrate ten million Muslims who shall be twenty million tomorrow and forty million the day after? If we integrated them, if all the Arabs and Berbers were considered French, how could we prevent them from moving to our home country where the standard of living is so much higher? My village wouldn't be named Colombey-les-Deux-Églises (Colombey of the Two Churches) anymore, but Colombey-les-Deux-Mosquées (Colombey of the Two Mosques)!" What do you think? Should it be inserted?
To prove what ? That de Gaulle believed in independant nations and not in colonization nor in a federation of nations ? OK 40 or 50 years later it may sound like Le Pen, but the context was radically different. Ericd 15:36, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Sounds like De Gaulle was predicting the theory of Eurabia. Of course, Bat Ye'or says it was his fault to begin with. --ProhibitOnions 21:33, 2005 May 20 (UTC)
"He was also targeted by the settler OAS terrorist group and several assassinations attempts were made on him; the most famous is that of 22 August 1962, when he and his wife narrowly escaped an assassination attempt when their Citroën DS was targeted by machine gun fire arranged by Jean-Marie Bastien-Thiry at the Petit-Clamart." But do you conciencize that is "Conspiration theory" So it can be only fabrication by same sort of neurotic insane patient! if bomb exploded precisely where and when De Gaulle passed by that can be explained by natural causes for sure, only one has to look for them. No even not need that: for conspiration theory by evidence cannot be tru, thet don't right to be true. Why look for a Bastien Thiery, next time you appeal to martians One must suppose, it is naturally the same stuff : all conspiration constructed schemes of insane spirits How can you write that there is a conspiration to kill him?!!! it's all communist-terrorist propaganda you did'nt know?? And even if he woulbe shot it would be an illusion and a lunacy that the bullet introduced by pure natural hazard in his head could be the result of a - god forbid that unnatural verboten word!! - a conspiration !
Euh... I don't understand ? Ericd 13:27, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
Me neither... --ProhibitOnions 21:33, 2005 May 20 (UTC)
Moved sections to new pages
Since no one else had done it, I moved the Names and terms of address used for Charles De Gaulle and Things named after Charles de Gaulle sections to their own pages. Please improve them. --ProhibitOnions 22:25, 2005 May 20 (UTC)