Talk:Birmingham

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Please add new topics at the end, in sequence, and indent appropriately, so that the discussion may easily be followed by others. Thank you.

Disambiguation

We seem to have had yet another visit from Mr excisionoffundamentalredundancy (and before we get into the realms of paranoia once more, that's not me). G-Man, can we please leave the disambiguation link alone now? There is no support for changing it from anyone other than you. Birmingham, Alabama is significantly smaller than Birmingham UK, less important as a part of its own nation, and (obviously) postdates the city in the UK. Birmingham UK is clearly the right place for Birmingham to point to, even if the decision were made to rename this article (see the way Boston is organised, for example). I can't find any other example where the link at the top of an article to a disambiguation page specifically mentions one of the alternatives. --Brumburger 15:46, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here's one. Mars. Morwen - Talk 15:47, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Touché! I should have specified articles about cities (and you'll no doubt find one of those now). The point stands, though - it's not the usual thing to do, and there doesn't seem to be any real reason to do it here. --Brumburger 16:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary the Birmingham AL link has been consistantly part of the article for nearly three years See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Birmingham&diff=337570&oldid=220152) and in all that time, nobody (including Pigsonthewing) has objected to it. So why you have suddenly started making a fuss about it now I have no idea.

Moreover the important point here is what people will be looking for when they look up "Birmingham". And the fact is that a substantial proportion of the people looking up 'Birmingham' will be looking for Birmingham, Alabama, as this is easilly the second most well known place in the world called Birmingham, and is what Birmingham means to most Americans.

So if were going to have the article about Birmingham about the city in England (which I agree with by-the-way) then it is IMO only fair that we make it as easy as possible to find the link to B'ham Alabama, rather than directing people through an obscure disambiguation page. G-Man 20:38, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's not obscure, there's a link to it at the top of the page, clearly labelled "other places called Birmingham". If people can't work out that Birmingham, Alabama will be one of those other places, there really is no hope for them. The fact that something has been wrong for three years doesn't mean it shouldn't be put right now (like the population figures). --Brumburger 21:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Which is completely missing the point, the point is there are two very important and well know places in the world called Birmingham, Birmingham, Alabama is one of them. If you look at the other Birmingham's you'll see that they're all tiny and insignificant. But Birmingham, AL is the largest city in Alabama and one of the most important cities in the American south. It is also world famous for its association with the Civil Rights movement. A large proportion of the people looking up 'Birmingham' will be looking for Birmingham, AL. Surely therefore it deserves special treatment. Unless of course you believe that consistancy should be placed above common sense.

Regarding the population figures, the 2003 figures on the City Council website (http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=26205&CONTENT_ITEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=122#population) put the population at 992,100. G-Man 22:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree that it is "common sense" to put a specific link to Birmingham, Alabama at the top of the article, and nor it seems does anyone else. I'm aware of the city council website figures, and I trust the ONS more (the council will have got its figures from the Population Estimates Unit of the ONS in the first place, so if the two figures are different the council's are going to be wrong). --Brumburger 23:22, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin

This citing of sources is new to me but I am finding it quite entertaining at keeping info I have written.

Taken from Zeps first press release in 1968.

http://www.led-zeppelin.com/lzpress.html

"John Bonham comes from the industrial town of Birmingham. It is not the hub of British music, but in order to get his experience he played with as many groups as he could in the area and eventually joined one of the top local outfits, The Band of Joy. The Tim Rose jaunt brought John well deserved national acclaim and opened the door to the next chapter in his success story.

Married, and still living in Birmingham, John is, according to Jimmy Page, "The champion beer drinker in England'"

"Like John Bonham, Robert hails from Birmingham and was a member of the Band of Joy, now defunct. He also played on several occasions with Alexis Korner, who fathered the blues revival in England. It was singer Terry Reid, a friend of Jimmy Page's, who suggested Robert for Led Zeppelin, and there was no need to look further."

Now we know that both musicians were actually born in 1. west bromwich 2. Redditch.

West Brom sprawls into Brum or vice versa? and Redditch (as we know today) was populated as an overspill of Birmingham. Regardless both musicians evolved out of the Birmingham scene which at the time was less prominent in the media due to bands such as the infamous Beatles and various London based acts.

Also from here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/alabaster/A593101

"Jimmy Page had also received a tip from Terry Reid on a great, young blues singer from Birmingham. Page was impressed by the singer, Robert Plant, and his vocal range. He invited Plant over where they explored each other's music tastes by playing their favourite records."

Also from here: http://www.933thebone.com/Boneoffame/2004/zeppelin.htm

"Page met bassist John Paul Jones while the two worked on Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man" in April of 1968, and the two discussed the potential of joining forces. That summer, Page traveled to Birmingham to see and potentially recruit a young singer named Robert Plant, who was fronting his own group, Band of Joy. The trio was now lacking only a drummer, and Plant recommended his Band of Joy bandmate John Bonham. In September of 1968, the four played their first rehearsals in London,..."

Also from here: http://www.cdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=98

"...the shorter, more muscular sounds of "What Is And What Never Should Be", which is alternately taut rock and electric folk, and the dizzying, tripped-up riff of "Dancing Days" that recalls Plant's pre-Zeppelin days in the dance halls of his hometown of Birmingham."

And that was from a quick search on the net, Led Zeppelin and Rob Plant/John Bonham should remain, the press often mistakingly suggest that Led Zeppelin are from Brum, in actual fact two of the most important musicians of the band learned their trade in brum and were born within a few miles of the city. Nick Boulevard 22:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Metropolitan area

The page G-Man cited to support his preferred wording includes As in the rest of the world, metropolitan areas in Europe are much debated, and widely different figures are given for the same place by different sources. These figures should be seen as an interpretation, not as conclusive facts.; it also links to Metropolitan area, which says A metropolitan area is a large population center consisting of a large city and its adjacent zone of influence, or of several neighboring cities or towns and adjoining areas, with one or more large cities serving as its hub or hubs. and does not support his narrow, central government, definition. Andy Mabbett 23:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So what definition would you like to use exactly. As I have pointed out already no other official definition exists other than the WM county, which is recognised as being the West Midlands metropolitan area and is used in government statistics as such.

In my version I pointed out that Birmingham was the economic centre of the WM region. G-Man 23:17, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to use a definition; nor do I wish to use any definition "exactly", since there appears to be no standard definition to use. Andy Mabbett 23:28, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well surely we should give prominance to the official definition, as there doesn't appear to be any other. Using the definition of metropolitan area above, It could be argued that much of the West Midlands region is effectively within the "zone of influence" of Birmingham. That's what I tried to point out. G-Man 23:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well surely we should give prominance to the official definition Yes - and the wording I reveted to (and have just clarified) does just that. Andy Mabbett 23:40, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)