Talk:Beowulf
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Template:Facfailed Nice article 4.238.245.162 23:15, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
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Current thinking
Great article. I had read a recent theory that Beowulf referred to Dark Age events in England specifically North Kent. READ IT. It is written by Paul Wilkinson: http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba39/ba39feat.html#wilkinson http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1373/is_12_48/ai_53461156
--Dumbo1 00:55, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Yes, well I have read it before. However, it does not account for the similarities between Beowulf and Rolf Krake's saga. Wilkinson neither has a theory for those similarities, nor why they moved the setting to Scandinavia.--Wiglaf 11.15, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- It doesn't need to. I agree that there are similarities between Beowulf and Rolf Krake's saga. But that is not proof that they do describe the same incidents, or even that they refer to the same geographic setting. The article should highlight what is currently there, but it should also include other theories/possibilities and state them as such. Beowulf is a complex and little understood document. Its history is uncertain as is that of Rolf Krake, if we really are looking at events happening in 450-600 CE. --Dumbo1 22:37, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Concerning matters such as these, we're talking of comparing stories. Since there is a huge amount of variation between stories, the similarities and the linguistic correspondences between Rolf Krake and Beowulf are enough to convince me that they are at least based on the same original story. Then it depends on what you mean by "proof" which is a rare word in humanistics.--Wiglaf 15:50, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- The theory was criticised in the Letters page of the next edition of British Archaeology [1] (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:z5DviYaCMhUJ:www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba42/ba42lets.html+wilkinson+beowulf+ansell&hl=en) and elsewhere. I could go on and on about its author but this is not the place. adamsan 21:10, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Translation
Would anyone be interested in my rendering the fragment from Beowulf into modern poetic English? user:sjc
I find some translation a little bit strange. The name Healfdene, for instance it othervise here at the wikipedia used as Halfdan I belive, as for Halfdan the Black. Either of the varieties should be used to establish conecquence, since its undaoubtly the same name. An alternatice would be a link to Halfdan from Healfdene. Dan Koehl 05:41 Jan 11, 2003 (UTC)
It is a very archaic translation. But I would be reluctant to tinker with the import with the import from Gutenberg because of possible copyright issues. A modern rendering by someone (i.e. probably me) would resolve this. But time is the big enemy at the moment, Dan. BTW the name Halfdan is as unsatisfactory as Healfdene because it also partially conceals the meaning behind the name.user:sjc
Well, I thought the right table is supposed to be a modern transalation? Its not that important to me, and beides theres so far no particulair halfdan to link to, so it hardly matters. The meaning of the word I suppose, i half dane.
Just for my curiosity, in wich way does healfdene clearer reveal the meaning? On runstones in Sweden the enam is most often writen with the spelling half tan.
If the origon from halfdan at all comes from the name Dan, I am very sceptical to the interpretion be a half dane. Its seems like Halfdan and Dan was both used back in ancient times. Dan the arrogant is supposed to have give name to Denmark. (Danmark in Danish and Swedish) but this gives the indication the neame was used before and has its unique meaning, as halfdan.
On the other hand, if Healfdene is more correct, then I think Halfdan the Black should also be spelled in the same way.
(Not arguing with you here, maybe theres something for me to learn...)Dan Koehl 07:39 Jan 12, 2003 (UTC)
By archaic I mean it is in Victorian English, i.e. recognisable to a modern reader with mother-tongue English but with effort. It is not late 20th century English but English as it was written by scholars of a century or so ago.
I happen to read AS and I know that the word for half is healf and I know the word for Danish is (amongst other spellings) Dene. So I know immediately what is implied about the Scylding Healfdene: it is not only a nationalist slur but also an implicit slur upon his lineage and his legitimacy. But if I come across the name Halfdan in an AS text I don't quite know what to do with it. Is it an AS name whose origin is concealed? Or does it mean half a dan? I wouldn't without engaging my brain think that a dan was a dane because it it doesn't immediately correlate at all to either the AS or the modern English. It is an unfortunate bodge, in short, and this is what happens very often when anglicisation occurs. The word for Denmark in English is of course Denmark and not Danmark, although we do have the derivatives Dane and Danish, but unfortunately no Dans.....
The point about this in context however is that not only is Healfdene a Scylding, the name has more rhythmic and alliterative value than Halfdan. Let's not kill a brilliant (if dated) translation's artistic merits . user:sjc
I suppose you are right. The day theres an article about the Halfdan mentioned here, I suppose someone will find a solution for the link. I would actually be interested to know if you have more material translated, I am serching the pieces describing two ancient kings of Svitjod, Ottar and Adils, not really sure how they (or Svitjod) are called anglified. Since they are described and mentioned independantly in Snorre and Beowulf, this gives pretty good confirment about their existence. Dan Koehl 09:24 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)
Dan, I will see what I can dig out for you but as I said previously, time is the big enemy at the moment. rgds Steve (user:sjc)
Anyone able to translate this into perhaps non-poetic literal 21st century English also? The one on the page seems to have been written by someone who spent /far/ too much time reading Shakespeare. In parts the Old English is clearer than the translation: "Beowulf is min nama." "Beowulf is my name" not the torturous "I am Beowulf named." Or "Wille ic asecgan sunu Healfdenes" "I want to tell Halfdan's son" not "I am seeking to say to the son of Healfdene...". kudz75 01:03, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Indeed, the translation present here currently is problematic, and the page history seems to indicate it hasn't been updated to address issues it raises in an eternity. Its choice of gloss is patently incorrect in a number of places ('syrcan' is not 'harness,' it is the plural of 'syrc/serc' meaning 'mail coat' or shirt' and 'bryttan' is not 'breaker.' 'Brytan' would mean 'to break,' however, 'bryttan,' means 'bestower/giver' - they may be etymologically related, but do not share any part of their respective Old English meanings, as far as I can tell). As well, its author seems to have inserted bits of Elizabethan English at random, and the word order has been occasionally jumbled nonsensically (how the author managed to get the mess that is "Messenger, I, Hrothgar's herald!" out of the simple and perfectly intelligible SVO sentence, "Ic eom Hroðgares ar ond ombiht" is particularly hard to imagine).
I will write a semi-literal translation of this passage for the page, which as a consequence of its semi-literal nature, will not be particularly pretty, but will endeavour to retain as much as possible the original's structure and will focus on communicating the specific meaning of the original Old English vocabulary and concepts present. Unfortunately, creating grammatically coherent or, even more problematically, "graceful" modern English sentences from an Old English source while adhering to the rigours of a fairly literal translation is quite often essentially impossible. The most prominent problem posed is simply that Old English appositive noun and verb phrases, or other phrases which lack an expressed subject, or in the case of noun phrases, an adjacent verb, often translate ungrammatically into Modern English. I have retained an appositive noun phrase ("heresceafta heap") as a somewhat problematic case ("A Multitude of spears") in the Modern English despite its awkwardness simply because producing a fully idiomatic Modern English translation of the phrase would require too heavy handed an interpretive treatment for my taste. I think it's best as it is. --Yst 14:29, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Update: Indeed, I updated the former translation with a semi-literal Modern English translation of my own creation which does not make any attempt whatsoever at poetic flourishes, and which I created solely to serve as a reflection of the meaning of the original text. The translation formerly present, it seems, was a rather freely structured, syntactically confused and generally deeply flawed translation from 1910 which has not stood the test of time at all well. --Yst 17:47, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Even though Yst's translation into modern English is much easier to read, in the Old English version I have replaced the wynn character with w for easier reading. If a novice tries to have a go at reading the Old English version, the character can unfortunately be mistaken for p (due to how some fonts render the character). Also most modern prints or translations (that I have come across) these days use 'w' instead of . – AxSkov 02:07, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Indeed, I support this further change to the original. The transcription of wynn as 'w' has been standard in modern editions of Old English texts for the last hundred years. I don't see why we should make an exception to that rule here. --Yst 18:59, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Discussion on Beowulf equalling Rolf Krake
- Do you have any opinions on the alignments of the Beowulf poem and the charcter of Rolf Krake, known from Snorre's Edda and Saxo's Gesta Danorum, amongst others?
I have read the old english texts (in a few different versions, I should say) as found online, and I am struck by the similarities for which I have not yet found any "official" comments regarding this mentioned similarities of the two characters, Beowulf and Rolf Krake.
- I see an alignment of Beo, in Beowulf, as of beorh (mountain, huge rock etc.), and Wulf, as being the basic name, with the Beo-prefix added as a "nickname" of a sort. This corresponds, in my opinion, to the nickname of Rolf; Krake, perhaps in the same adversed way that the Robin Hood companion John is called Little John, although he is supposedly of great statutes and build. As is Rolf Krake, wether the term "krake" means a small being (crow) or some huge built tree or rock, both explanations which I have found to be mentioned as an explanation of the name Rolf Krake. (Accidentally, "krake" in swedish is a synonym for poorly built and weak.)
- I see the description of fighting, and loosing, to a fire-throwing dragon, and the loss of great fortunes in a funeral pyre, in Beowulf to be an adequate description of how a person is burned to death within his house, in a huge fire. This corresponds, in my opinion, very much to the story of how Rolf Krake is burnt to death over a matter of taxes and fortunes.
- The companion of Beowulf, Wiglaf, is most similar to Rolf Krakes companion Vögg, or Wig, who revenges the death of Rolf Krake by killing the brother-in-law Hjorvard who has killed Rolf.
- The description of Beowulf people as Weder Geats, to me has a very interesting association with a known name on the swedish (of today) west coast; where the island of 'Hallands Väderö', in the meaning of county Halland, Weather-island, very well might indicate some former region in Geatland - Götaland, Gothland; the Wedera Geats This, then becomes a very adequate situation given the orientation of geography, naming Hrothogars people (both) West and South-Danes, wheras Beowulf is called (both) East, and at a time, North Danes. An explanation of this, naturally, would be that the Geatland/Gothland territory at times have been incorporated in either Swiorice, or Denum - the Svea kingdom, or the Dane kingdom - whereas the people of West, East and South Gothland originally and basically consider themselves to be 'geats', or goths, or 'götar'.
Feel free to add references, links and your thoughts on this subject, email me at [mailto:thomas@karlkvist.com]
(Wilmer Thomas) 2003 June 18th, Göteborg
- Hallands-Väderö is first mentioned in 1673 (as Wärögierne). I doubt you'll find many followers to that part of the theory. OlofE 18:29, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- And the nouns which get chucked onto the front of the various ethnic group name compounds in the poem are usually extremely arbitrary, based largely on the need to alliterate, and only very seldom on any sort of literal context or ethnographic implications. When it's a "w" that needs to be alliterated, they're the Weather-Geats, when it's an "s" that needs to be alliterated, they're the Sea-Geats. When "Dane" needs to start with a "g," they're the Spear-Danes (gardena). When it's a "b," they're the Bright-Danes (beorhtdena), etc. --Yst 14:15, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
More on Beowulf and Hrolf Kraki
I am quite suprised that this alignment is so infected. For someone who approaches the issue from the perspective of Norse mythology, it seems like a straightforward alignment. There are many alignments within Norse mythology that are undisputed. However, if treated with the extreme demands for conclusive alignment that some demand in this matter, it would lead to the complete desintegration of most knowledge of Norse mythology. The Beowulf and Hrolf Kraki alignments do not only concern events, but also a host of personal names. There were 100s of Germanic names in circulation (this linguistic analysis of Proto-Norse personal names in Beowulf and Swedish rune stones[[2] (http://www.sofi.se/SOFIU/lup/urnord.pdf).] is in Swedish but anyone can read the list of names), so the probability that the personal names (and their relationships) would be a matter of coincidence is so low so as to be insignificant. If anyone would like to compare this particular aligment with the variations within uncontested alignments, see Heoroweard, any POV is based on the scholarly works cited.--Wiglaf 07:31, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Just like Balder, err...
Beowulf is just a rehashing of one of the oldest myths known to Humankind--that of Thor slaying Balder... Marduk slaying Tiamat (Chaos Monster)... Khranus
- "Thor slaying Balder"? OlofE 13:35, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Hmm, that's a new one to me. I missed that. Thor didn't slay Balder. Loki caused the blind god (I forget his name but will go to find it) to slay Balder with an arrow of mistletoe. Anyway, Balder was a God of Peace, so I don't see how the story even relates. GulDan 19:59, 1 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- "Thor slaying Balder"? OlofE 13:35, 31 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Middle of which Poem?
I found these sentences:
- The poem appears in what is today called the Beowulf manuscript, along with the shorter poem Judith. The text is the product of two different scribes, the second taking over roughly halfway through the poem.
and replaced them with
- The poem appears in what is today called the Beowulf manuscript, along with the shorter poem Judith. The text is the product of two different scribes, the second taking over roughly halfway through Beowulf.
(Bold added solely for talk page in both cases.) The difference is eliminating what may be regarded as either ambiguity, or the implication that i assume is an error, that the break falls in Judith. (That's what it says; just bcz B. is the subject of the article doesn't keep "the poem" from referring to the last poem mentioned, Judith. It's unlikely, bcz a break in Judith is not interesting in this article, and bcz the odds are good that any break would fall in the longer poem.)
If in fact it is the poem Judith that is broken between two scribes, someone who knows should eventually correct my false inference by making it read "halfway through Judith." --Jerzy 18:27, 2004 Feb 7 (UTC)
- You are right, the break is in Beowulf. Matthew Woodcraft
Christian vs. Pagan
The 'graph
- Scholars dispute whether Beowulf's main thematic thrust is pagan or Christian in nature. Certainly, the poem's characters are pagans, but the narrator places events in a thoroughly Christian context, casting Grendel as the kin of Cain. Some theories offer that Beowulf represents the retelling of a classic Germanic tale for a contemporary Christian audience.
is probably trying to convey something valuable, but it is a mess. Rather than fix the parts i can infer the meaning of, to say it clearly, i've left it for someone with the expertise to decide, e.g., what is meant by "a thoroughly Christian context", and who can imagine what other theory than "the retelling of a classic Germanic tale for a Christian audience" is plausible. (But i did kill the word "contemporary", which can add nothing but confusion.)--Jerzy 18:49, 2004 Feb 7 (UTC)
- The Christian vs. Pagan debate was old when I was in grad school in the 1980's -- I don't think it's worth worrying about now. It has more to do with issues around 19th-century Romanticism and early-20th-century allegorical studies than the poem itself. Dpm64 23:48, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Image
I have uploaded an image of the first page of the Beowulf manuscript: Image:Beowulf.firstpage.jpeg. It is public domain, and approximately 55k. Should it appear here? I have already used it at Medieval literature (my goal would be that all featured articles have associated images), and so I don't know if it should be duplicated. Also, the original image [here (http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/images/Beowulfpage.jpeg)] is much larger and more detailed....perhaps more appropriate for this page than my smaller version? Just a suggestion. Jwrosenzweig 22:03, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- The image is fine, but it would be nice if there were correspondance between the page shown and the translation given. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:44, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, while the first page of the Beowulf poem is interesting enough, I have to think the choice of its text for the translation would make for terrible confusion among readers first approaching the topic, as the text of the first page deals not with Beowulf the Geat, who lends his name to the poem and to the article itself, but with Beowulf (or Beow) the Dane, whose significance to the poem is merely hereditary and whose name is more likely to confound readers than illuminate issues raised by the poem. --Yst 14:45, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Story?
You know, we really don't cover the story at all (the article really assumes we've all read this somewhat difficult work). We shouldn't be a Cliff's Notes, but a paragraph or two of ploy synopsis really is needed, no? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:44, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Naming
I have been doing some work and added some articles on the people described in the epic. At the moment Beowulf concerns the epic itself, whereas the "person" is treated at Beowulf (character). My gut feeling is that the most common meaning of "Beowulf" is the epic, and not the person. Any opinions on the naming?--Wiglaf 10:00, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In the Scandinavian original of "Beowulf", the Beowulf figure was Fródi.
- Haabert, I see that you're not familiar with Beowulf.--Wiglaf 15:02, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Bee Wolf?
The name "Beowulf" is generally assumed to be a kenning for "bear", constructed from beo (bee) and wulf (wolf). This is undoubtedly the most likely meaning.
Now, my understanding of Old English is laughably poor (at best), but couldn't beowulf also be a contraction of beow (bow) and wulf (wolf) -- i.e., bow-wolf, a possible kenning for arrow, referring not just to his speed but also his "bite" (strength, powerful blow or strike of the sword)?
Old English poems often tend to make good use of double meanings. Could the name "Beowulf" have been an ideal choice because it can be interpreted in more than one positive way? --Corvun 18:28, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)
I can find no source for the translation of "beo" or "beow" as "bow" or anything like it. J. R. Clark Hall's A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary, Sweet's Student's Dictionary of Anglo-Saxon as well as Bruce Mitchell's, Mitchell and Robinsons' and Bright's respective glossaries all list no such meaning, the four which list "beow" (Mitchell's small glossary does not) gloss "beow" as "barley" with no other possible translations. MnE "bow" is almost always "boga" in OE texts. --Yst 04:29, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Hmmm. I'm probably confusing Old Norse for Old English again. I'll try to track down my original source and post it here on the talk page. --Corvun 10:56, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)
Missing word?
In the section on Translations, this sentence " Frederick Rebsamen's verse translation is with alliterations and inventive compound words; it includes extreme deviations from the meaning of the Old English text." seems to be missing a word between "is" and "with". Rife? Filled? Teeming?
I have been bold and inserted "rich".—Theo (Talk) 22:33, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)