Talk:Auschwitz concentration camp
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An event in this article is a March 26 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)
I have a picture which I feel would be relevant to this topic. It can be found here: 
. It is the memorial stone erected in memory of those inmates killed during the unsuccessful revolt of Sonderkommando's in 1944. For copywright purposes it was taken by me (James Jones) in March 2005, and I don't have any reservations about putting it into the public domain. I am not a registered user of wikipedia, and if anyone (with a little more technical expertise than I) wants to add my picture, I would be greatful.
How come no mention is made that the original figure put forth as the death toll was 4 million and has now been reduced to about 1.5 million thanks in no small part to the "revisionists"? Seems strange to me that in the last paragraph you seem to attempt to disparage the people whom you should be crediting.
- The "original", or earliest, number was actually eight or nine million.[1] (http://rense.com/general62/auch.htm) (Note esp one item w/i: ‘1,000,000 Source: Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers. This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers…In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further…’) Kwantus 16:58, 2005 Jan 21 (UTC)
- Um, you trust those vague "citations"? Also, I don't think a movie made in 1955 would count as a source for the "original" or "earliest" number. In any event, since the Auschwitz numbers were never used to calculate the total Jews killed, the number is not particularly relevant. Jayjg | (Talk) 20:16, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Pff. It's more citation than most people give, and excuse ME if I think it has relevance to a page on Auschwitz, not the sacred Holocaust-uber-alles (http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-genocide25.html). Actually, I should be annoyed that the shrinking auxiliary numbers can be used to further marginalise, say, the Holocaust of the Romany. If that were possible. Kwantus 16:21, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)
- Um, you trust those vague "citations"? Also, I don't think a movie made in 1955 would count as a source for the "original" or "earliest" number. In any event, since the Auschwitz numbers were never used to calculate the total Jews killed, the number is not particularly relevant. Jayjg | (Talk) 20:16, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- The citations are vague, untrustworthy, and most importantly, from non-historical sources. Hoess himself estimated the number killed at 2.5 million. Serious historians like Hilberg (in The Destruction of the European Jews) estimated the number killed at 1 million in 1961, 25 years before Holocaust Deniers started questioning the number. Numbers since then have fluctuated up and down. Taking a series of dubious estimates from non-historical sources, and lining them all up from biggest to smallest, with little regard for when the estimates were made, then claiming that the number is steadily declining as a result, is one of the weaker Denial techniques. And, as I've pointed out before, it's not relevant to the overall Holocaust Death toll, since the Aushwitcz numbers weren't used to calculate it. Jayjg | (Talk) 18:31, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Auschwitz is very old town, once cultural centre, capital of one of duchy.. I am hesistating on whether i shoudl moved all of this into Auschwitz exetrmination camp, and here instead put info on city of Auschwitz. szopen
Auschwitz is the town, so put information about the town here. However, the extermination camps is a important part of its history, so it should be mentioned and/or referenced. Just do it like you did with Treblinka. (I'm angry at myself for making such gross simplification wrt Treblinka.) --Yooden
However Auschwitz had really clear conotations in English, not like Treblinka. I was wondering maybe about Oswiecim entry about town, and Auschwitz about extermination camp. I mean, i don't like that name Auschwitz is nowadays associated only with death, but i am not sure if change similar to Treblinka in case of Auschwitz is justified... Mozzerati 10:17, 2004 May 4 (UTC)
Anyway, right now i have not any good informations about earlier history of Auschwitz, all i remmeber are some basic facts like that it was selled to polish kingdom by last prince of Auschwitz together with Zator and all mines nearby, and that protestants founded there some kind of school, If i am not mistaken... szopen
I see what you mean. So what about this: Once you have more information, make an entry for Oswiecim with all information, and prepend the Auschwitz entry with a synopsis and a reference to Oswiecim. (Auschwitz is the German name for Oswiecim, right?) --Yooden
I don't think that "tourist attraction" should be used while talking about place, where so many people were murdered. There is a wise phrase written in the museum in Oswiecim: "People, who forgot a tragedy, are convicted to experience it again" --swPawel
- I agree the general tone should be soon rendered in a more respectful form; if we need to give a great attention to today's visitors, we could perhaps use a reference to "tourism" about that project (I don't know if it was completed - it was a few years ago) of opening a discotheque in front of the camps, and stress instead that human nature can be so pretty that there is also people who goes visiting the camps only to satisfy instincts that other people could also call insane, and in a spirit that might be better not to describe further.
- About Arbeit macht frei, a native english speaking contributor might perhaps render with appropriate form, more than the geographical technical details of where people were entering, the general sense of insult that the sign could represent, which is the main reason why we remember it. I know it wasn't in the author's intentions, but by paradox it seems as if the sign was... "innocent" (I omit the following question).
- The modern image of Auschwitz never actually existed as such risks to appear as a funny espression...
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- Note that discoteque was not in front of camp. It was outside the protection zone. As one guy i met on usenet said, it seems that some people want to have protection zone around the protection zone. Or to evacuate whole damn town and leave only cemeteries.
- Remember, whole Poland is cemetery. It is hard to find place where Nazis haven't murdered someone. But life must go on. szopen
- It was described on the newspapers as very close, and the fact of being close to it _meant_ as a feature, in the sense that going to dance in front of camps was its principal special offer. Yes, in front of camps' area, this is how it was described - now we can start a debate about journalists, about correctness in information, whatever you like, but this what I read, on papers from different countries. I however take your point that it wasn't there (and sincerely I thank you for your note); the debate anyhow was started from something, I presume.
- Of course life must go on, but memories too deserve to be respected, specially in a place that is so much symbolic today beacause it has been so little symbolic and too much real in the past. I don't think a discotheque is going to open in the next future at Ground Zero, as well.
- Life _goes_ on. I live in Rome, where so many places may have similar symbolic contents (in smaller proportions, obviously, but still important), and I can see people in the streets living and enjoying life because life goes on; nevertheless I don't see anyone trying to open an entertainment business in the proximity of any sybolic place right _because_ of this vicinity, or people frequenting it _because_ of this nearness. Are we a lucky people in a lucky place or is it perhaps that there are things that need attention in any culture, at any latitude, beyond any ideology?
- So, this doesn't mean at all that whole Poland should be "protected" or that I would like to put the nation under a glass bell, it is not in my words because it is not in my mind; you are perhaps better able that anyone else here to tell us instead about the many camps in your country that nobody is aware of, as nobody is aware of italian camps (let's say just San Sabba, Trieste) and we all just think of Auschwitz to identify in it the whole tragedy; not to make a desert around any or each of these places of terror, but I think can we leave just a symbolic place to stand up alone, representing the many, for the respect of manhood, which is made of the sum of the single respects by anyone of us, starting from us here and passing through the respect of discotheque owners. And for the memory. I don't know if it is correct to be that "iconic", but I am afraid it would be worse if we weren't even that, at least.
- On another field, I am not so worried about the discotheque, I am sad about the fact that very likely there would be customers. If so, you might "protect" anything you like, the problem will not be solved, they'd move to another sad but not protected place. And I already said the worse aspect of all is this insane curiosity that makes it seem as if there is a touristic business, a sort of Disneyland in black, that I do hope for general reasons Auschwitz (and Poland) is not.
- I am sincerelly sorry if you read in my words something unrespectful for Poland, it wasn't at all in my intentions. I am sure that your country, in its entirety and locally, has no interest in making money from holocaust. I am sure Wikipedia will (respectfully) render this too.
I do not understand this sentence: "Several authors have criticised the historical inaccuracies perpetrated upon Auschwitz [...]" It sounds a bit like Colorless green ideas sleep furiously to me. Can an innaccuracy be perpetrated?
Perhaps some elaboration is necessary to, because we don't know what innacuracies these are.--branko
About 700 prisoners have attempted to escape from Auschwitz over the years
- I don't know if the author really intended what this implies in English: that Auschwitz is still around as a prison. Perhaps you mean: about 700 prisoners attempted to escape the Auschwitz concentration camps or something like that? DanKeshet
- I'm assuming the latter was intended. I've tweaked it a bit; how does it sound now? --Brion
I have a question about Auschwitz II (Birkenau). The jews and gypsies who were not murdered right away lived in the camp. I would like to know what kind of work they had to do every day. If anybody knows, or has a reference work to look it up, I'd appreciate it. I tried usenet, but no answer. Thanks, AxelBoldt
- I'll try to find something. Axel as a native German can you please say a few words about feelings of todays Germans of a such terrible thing from their past. I am sometimes also quite ashamed for my own nation too. There was no such camps as Auschwitz was on a teritory of Slovenia but some bad things also happend during nation's history (for instance terrible war crimes of Slovene traitors against Slovene patriols during the 2nd World War) or postwar crimes of official goverment against enemy's colaborators in 1940s. I must also say that my auntie came from Auschwitz in 1946 weighting a good 30 kg and died in the same year. Some say that these things must never repeat again, but Serb camps from 1990s like Omarska disprove this. How the mankind can protect itself from happening such things? Are we all the rat race in the end as Robert Nesta Marley sung or the dreads of society from Burning Spear's whoops ... Best regard and respect. --XJamRastafire 16:07 Sep 20, 2002 (UTC)
Well, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of Germans are shocked and deeply ashamed by the Holocaust, and still struggle to understand it. How it could have happened? Was it ordered from above or did people enthusiastically participate? It's an ongoing debate. Many Germans see the Holocaust as a defining moment in German history and have therefore very ambivalent feelings towards their own nation. AxelBoldt 03:05 Sep 21, 2002 (UTC)
Why is this page listed in the "In the news" section on the Main Page? --mav
- See Current events. --Eloquence 10:06 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- Probably because George Bush is visiting it today. Thanks the Poles for their war support, and simultaneously snubs the French by reducing the time he'll spend in France. But unless he says something surprising, it doesn't sound like much actual news will be made there... -- Someone else 10:08 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- I knew that - my question was why this article is in the "In the news" section since there is no mention of the current event in this article. --mav
- Many Americans will probably hear about Auschwitz for the first time when they see on CNN that Bush visits that place. The idea is to provide a background article so that they know what this is about. But if you want to enforce a policy that all articles listed on the Main Page have to cover the event in question, then Auschwitz should not be listed, because it obviously does not meet this condition. --Eloquence 10:26 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- For the first time? I dont know what Germans think about the American education system by a good chunk of high school history is based around World War 2 and the atrocities commited by the German government during that period --Anon
I'm a little confused - the article says that the gas chambers at A I didnt survive the war intact but did the ones at A II? PMelvilleAustin 17:12 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- No they did not; they were blown up by the Nazis. You can walk around in the ruins. AxelBoldt 22:19 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)
[The camp brothel] was staffed by women specifically selected for the purpose, and by volunteers from the female prisoners.
How voluntarily did they volunteer? --Charles A. L. 15:55, Feb 17, 2004 (UTC)
- Well, I would imagine that some women preferred work in the brothel over the alternatives available to them. I'm not sure if "volunteer" is the right word under these circumstances. "I will shoot you either in the right foot or in the left foot." -- "Ok, I volunteer my left foot." AxelBoldt 08:47, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In the version prior to the edit I've just done, the beginning of the article implied that the camp was in Poland. The remains of the camp are in Poland, the area where the camp was had been in Poland prior to the war, but the actual camp, when active, was not, according to my understanding, in Poland. I think, given the way that Poland has moved around alot historically, it's worth explicitly mentioning that it was in the area which had been Annexed into Germany a map of Poland from 1941/2 (http://www.creativelygenius.com/history/images/Poland/POL%201941-1943.jpg). Note that, at the time, Poland (General Government of Poland) did exist in a different area. I do not think that has dropped any information in this edit. Mozzerati 06:26, 2004 Jun 4 (UTC)
- Oh I see, I had a hard time understanding the convoluted first paragraph. If that was the point, I'll put it back in. AxelBoldt 08:27, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Axel has reverted a change that I made (Auschwitz is the name of a concentration camp..) to an older form (Auschwitz is the German name of a town). I, as a native English speaker, don't feel that this is really the main definition any more. How about something like the following proposal, which I think is both precise and clear (see below):
- Auschwitz is used as a shorthand for a series of concentration and extermination camps. The name Auschwitz is the German form of the name of the Polish town Oświęcim, situated about 60 km southwest of Krakow. Beginning in 1940, Nazi Germany built several concentration camps and an extermination camp in the area, which at the time was annexed by Germany. The camps were a major constituent of the Holocaust. There were three main camps, and thirty-nine subcamps. The three main camps were:
The most likely place to encounter the name is in phrases such as "she was sent to Auschwitz", "he died in Auschwitz" and "Primo Lewi survived Auschwitz". Even though there's a certain ambiguity in this (which camp? was "she" actually sent to the camp or the town).
It should be noted that in English, the ambiguity is in most practical cases resolved by using the German form for the camp and the Polish form for the town. Try doing a Google search for each term; if you ask for results in English only the difference is striking (Auschwitz returns links about the camps; Oswiecim returns one link about the museum followed by many tourism links). This distiction does not exist in Polish (where both can be Oswiecim) or German (where both can be Auschwitz).
Mozzerati 20:01, 2004 Jul 4 (UTC)
Am informal discussion on the Wikipedia IRC channel agrees with your version. Please change the article to reflect that Auschwitz is camp, making the town name secondary, along the lines of "Auschwitz was a Nazi concentration camp, named for the nearby town of Oswiecim (which the Nazi Germans called by the Germanized name Auschwitz)." -- orthogonal 03:27, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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deaths
Incomplete...
International Red Cross visited Auschwitz a lot (and certainly found no evidence of "genocide", why isn't this mentioned?
In fact, nothing is mentioned that would provide evidence that Auschwitz was anything less than a death factory where Jews liend up to be gassed.
There is also strong evidence that the gas chamber shown to visitors even today was built by Polish communists in 1948. This may or may not be exactly true, but I take it it cannot be mentioned - where other speculation (and that's what it is) is presented as fact?
Very disappointing, and far from NPOV.
--Wintceas 14:19, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)----
1) Give us the dates when Red Cross had been in Auschwitz, please. Auschwitz was no Terezin.
2) It's common knowledge that today's gas chambers are a later reconstruction based on those destroyed by the Germans.
3) This article IS impartial, as far as your ignorant assertions are concerned.
Images
At the top of page, I see the pictures aligned horizontally in an ugly fashion before I see any of the article text. I would like to fix this by moving the pictures around, spacing them out vertically, but then again the problem may be particular to my browser or my Wikipedia format, in which case I wouldn't want to mess with it. Everyking 10:03, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Picture of entrance
The writing on the wrought-iron entrance actually translates as "work makes free" - although this is almost the same as "work liberates" it is the more correct translation. I don't want to change it without an opinion though. What does anyone else think? Selphie 13:33, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC) **
- I don't know German, but "work liberates" sounds like a more natural english phrase than "work makes free". The BBC's Auschwitz series uses "work makes you free". This sounds like a better translation. Cburnett 18:57, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- How about the current version, "Work (shall) make (you) free"? See also the Arbeit macht frei article. Jayjg | (Talk) 19:07, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Well, that article has "work liberates" or "work shall make you free". Either would get my vote. Cburnett 19:14, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The Polish government
"The Polish government" has been imposed to the Poles by the UK, USA and SU, so I'd rather call it "Soviet-British-American government" or "Anti-Polish conspiracy". This government assigned some Soviet crimes to the Germans, e.g. the Katyn murder. I bet that the four-million story came from Moscow.
--Wintceas 14:12, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC) You don't need to bet anything. The figure was a Soviet fabrication made soon after the camp liberation. Historians know that since the 50's.
Gas chambers
The official museum site informs about the destruction of several chambers: http://www.auschwitz.org.pl/html/eng/historia_KL/krematoria_komory_gazowe_ok.html (Some links are false, you may inform the museum, if you care)
Fate of female prisoners
I've removed the following from the article:
- Some female prisoners fared even worse. A female Jewish prisoner has stated that Soviet troops repeatedly raped female inmates, sometimes strangling them afterwards.[1]
since it gives a citation that does not appear to exist within the article. Please supply a source citation if you restore this text to the article. -- The Anome 12:00, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Deaths by Experimentation
Why is there no mention in the article of the many experiments, including, most predominantly, Mind Control and medical experiments, which were performed on the inmates? It has been concluded that the numbers stated officially killed in gas chambers is a physical impossibility in the timeframe given, and many inmates actually died during such experiments. It is also known that some inmates were programmed through traumatic dissociative procedures, had their eye colour, hair colour, and facial features altered, and were then reintroduced into society, as part of Mengele's experiments. Why is this not mentioned? Atun