Talk:Atman (Hinduism)

See also: Talk:Atman

Pantheism

The distinctions between pantheism and panentheism have been the subject of debate both jhere and elsewhere for some time, but I will carefully point out the most obvious and pertinant fact in this matter: By the most widely agreed apon definition of Pantheism (God=Existence) and every description of Brahman I have found, Brahman is the sum total of all things, existence personified, the breath of live within us, Immanence. Finially I sternly rebuke your notion that Brahman is distinct from the monotheistic God, that is an opinion which I have only heard from Christians Jews and Muslims, and one which I am glad to have never heard before from a Hindu. Sanatana Dharama is an inclusivist faith, and does not seek to divide the religions of truth, but rather to enlighten others of the underlying unity. Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 12:12, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dude stop being a pedantic preacher. YOur readings were obviously full of lacunae because the Upanishads speaks about saguna and nirguna brahman, the latter, and more primordial aspect, being without form and hence transcendant. This was seen even in the Nasadiya Hymn of the tenth Mandala of the Rig Veda in which hiranyagarbha is pre-empted by a formless, non-space bound supra-conscious nothingness. The idea is not to confuse, but to imply that there is both unmanifest and manifest Brahman. Now note, the Upanishads did not advocate an illusory Maya, on the other hand... this interpretation was forwarded by the Advaitists, the first of the Vedanta schools, under Adi Shankaracharya. It was only a couple of centuries following that a cogent and influential proposition regarding Brahman was formed by the Dvaitists and Vishisthadvaitists. Lastly, you don't even have a clue as to Hinduism if you view it as one big homogenous blob. There are many major movements of thought that often view God differently... you need to start reading the debates recorded in Sanskrit in which proponents of different sects (like in the aforementioned Vedanta sects) would have it out in philosophical debates as to the nature of the ultimate Brahman, or the nature of being, etc. Pantheism is a crude form of everywhere-godness while panentheism understands God as being existence but also not being limited by it, which you're supporting. "From fullness, fullness." read that mantra inthe Upanishads and you'll understand. Hindus for centuries before your birth have embraced many different philosophies and are not limited to your reductive and totalitarian, normative view of how your ideal Hinduism should be. Hinduism allows for different views of the same truth. Peace --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:22, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Well we generally agree, as helpful as that is. I understand and appreciate the diversity of thought within Hinduism, as I understand the philosophical intricacies which likely exist between the two of us on this very subject. I'm sure we could have a lengthy debate on God being limited by existance (a pointless question, since existance itself is infinate) as well as the unmanifest (something I would suggest might already exist, since God is "outside" time). All of this is in addition to the debate about the definition of pantheism and and panentheism, and the usefullness of distinguishing between the two (see a long debate here).

In summary, I find you to be an educated (I will wager you are better versed in the vedic literary tradition than I) yet opinionated individual. I myself am an opinionated preacher, perhaps even totalitarian, reductive, normative etc. I am not however pedantic, and fully accept the limitations of any sources when compared to God's direct word. Indeed my views and statements are not based on some single "lacunae (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lacunae)" reading, but rather on careful meditation, deep prayer and intensive life experience (for example I find the gita a most agreeable book, having personally come to many of the same conclusions and observations previous to having read it). Regardless of source, an opinion is just that, a POV, and should not be stated as a fact within the article. If you can find a expert source stating that Brahman is panentheistic, I will find one stating that he is pantheistic. Until then, shall we allow the reader to make up his own mind? ;) Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 12:17, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I see where the disagreement is here. I'm not stating that brahman is panentheistic or pantheistic... I'm stating that certain schools of Hinduism view or understand atman as being panentheistic and others as a pantheist creator god. If you read the article it doesn't claim that Atman or Brahman is one thing and in fact traces the philosophical evolution of the term (though not exhaustively). I wasn't saying that it is, nor am I equipped to handle a philosophical debate on that level. Advaitists view it as panentheistic, Dvaitists tend to view it as a single Creator.--LordSuryaofShropshire 00:03, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)

oh.. The way I read the article it appeared to be taking a stand. I reworded it to make it more clear that this view is an opinion, not a presentation of one position as correct. I'm sorry I misunderstood where you were coming from, and hopefully you like my new wording. If not, feel free to do what is necessary ;) Cheers, Sam [Spade (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Sam_Spade&action=edit&section=new)] 15:27, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think you've done a fine job... later on this week, I think we can clarify and actually section the page according to different schools, preferably chronologically, and end with a summary paragraph intimating the common-ground and differences. --LordSuryaofShropshire 21:54, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)