Talk:Anarchism

Contents

1 Talk archives 2 Time to Unprotect the Page 3 Anarchism is anarchistic, so its entry is, too, nu? 3.1 Please Stop 4 19 archives and counting 5 Summary of Arguments / Proposals 5.1 Pro Anarcho-Capitalist Arguments 5.2 Arguments Against Presentation of Anarcho-Capitalism as Anarchist 5.3 Proposals for Common Solution 5.4 Comments 6 Disambiguation note? 6.1 Proposed Disambiguation pre-amble

Talk archives

If you want to talk about Anarcho-Capitalism (A-C), make sure you take a look at past discussions about it. Same goes for other controversial topics.--albamuth 21:33, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Talk:Anarchism/Archive1 - A-C discussion, music, external links
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive2 - many more external links
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive3 - discussion of disambiguation, various forms of anarchism
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive4 - Doublethink, socialist/communist?, Deplorable!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive5 - removing A-C, reverts, functioning anarchies, Feb 29 (2004)
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive6 - Anarchy v. Anarchism and POV
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive7 - egalitarianism, anarchy, surrealism, are you an anarchist?
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive8 - coercion, anarcho-fascism, worthless!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive9 - A-C is oxymoron, proposals, history repeats, truce, coup, truce, anarcho-fascism(A-F)
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive10 - history of article, more allegations of POV, another appeal to save A-F
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive11 - lots of stuff, mostly an edit war about A-C
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive12 - more aftermath of edit war, page blanking, punk rock
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive13 - auto wiki link suggestions, shortening article, anarchists vs police
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive14 - hunter-gatherers, adbusters, template discussion
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive15 - superhuge National-Anarchist troll and response, A-C is an oxymoron, anarchist criteria, page protected
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive16 - Survey and response, CrimethInc, communism, much to read here
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive17 - trolls, more critique of A-C, dictionary definitions, much of it obviously written while drunk
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive18 - disambiguation, 'left' anarchism, NPOV and so much more!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive19 - NPOV dispute, page protection, more A-C discussion, graphical badness, and Milk!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive20 - NPOV dispute, page protection, more A-C discussion

Time to Unprotect the Page

It says in [Wikipedia:Protection policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy] that "temporarily protected pages should not be left protected for very long." Well, it's been protected for very long, so this protection is in violation of Wikipedia policy. Consensus is not going to happen, obviously. Edit warring is probably the best way to go. RJII 16:16, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I was the one who requested protection of the Neutral Disambiguation Page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism&oldid=14880685), not knowing at the time that the admin was biased toward the socialist version. I'd rather have an edit war than the really stupid version up there right now. Hogeye 17:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You forgot both sides had requested protection, not just you (in fact, the other side requested first: [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection&diff=14770638&oldid=14769814) and [2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection&diff=14847264&oldid=14829597)). And I'm biased against edit wars, not towards a specific version of this page. That said, if both sides want it unprotected, I will unprotect it; you can also ask on WP:RFPP for unprotection. I'm also annoyed at it being protected for this long (I dislike keeping pages protected for too long, they grow stale), but it's still better than an edit war. --cesarb 17:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is anyone else disturbed by RJII's "edit wars are good" theory? Seems pretty clear he's just here to cause trouble. Gave up arguing rationally about two weeks ago. Oh well. If worse comes to worst, I'm sure I have more free time than you and thus have the edge in a war of attrition :P But I assure you I'll do anything to avoid this course. --Tothebarricades 19:43, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not here to "cause trouble" at all. I'm here to help correct the article. If that's troubling to you, that's unfortunate. Either way, whether it's interminable debate, or endless editing, there will be no resolution. There will always be anarchists who think somebody else's school of anarchism is not real anarchism (as in the traditional individualists who held that communist and syndicalist forms were not anarchism). So, the best we can do is edit endlessly without resolution. A dynamic article is better than a stagnant one. The point of Wikipedia is not for writers to appease other, but to provide dynamic, living articles, that anyone can edit. I, for one, will not the sacrifice quality and accuracy of an article for the sake of avoiding conflict or avoiding "causing trouble." If anyone would, then they shouldn't be editing an article. RJII 20:23, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Keep it protected, please, until some sort of agreement is made about how to resolve these content disputes. I would like to see more respondants to the survey. How can we call more attention to it? Perhaps we should just wait another week for more commentary? --albamuth 22:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wanted it unprotected too, until I saw the capitalists want it unproctected as well, now I'm not so sure. Keep it protected because they'll surely go back to their vandalistic ways. The current page isn't perfect, but it's better than a ton of people who visit this page every day getting an entirely and utterly completely false view of what anarchism is. --Fatal 22:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Anarchism is anarchistic, so its entry is, too, nu?

No wonder anarchism leads to edit wars! Doing your own thing generates disagreements! This is because people are different! Viva la difference! — Rickyrab | Talk 22:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well argument is the stuff of life - I have no problem discussing, collaborating with other wikipedians on this. But on this page for the last few months we have had the same 2 or 3 anarcho-capitalists pushing their POV and UNPROVEN claim that A/C is entered in the article as a 'school' or substantial subsection. Folk coming in have only really experienced this and little discussion on the other parts of the article. IMHO it is classic trolling as A/C's are abusive.,.. uncooperative and just go on POV rants without refering to unbias sources or evidence. -max rspct 22:37, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sort of like how the surrealism talk page is surrealistic (just look at it, it's insane). I don't have a problem with people having different views - very little of my discussion here even goes into anarcho-capitalism, more a concern about the quality of the article --Tothebarricades 23:08, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

It is just strange that the anti-property anarchists guard the page like it is their property, and it is the property anarchists that are willing to share and share alike. It looks like "public property" in the gift economy will be the object of considerable conflict.--Silverback 00:02, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

It looks like the problem in hand is being avoided by making personal attacks that have no basis in fact. I <3 petty attacks on peoples' integrity. Get a life. --Tothebarricades 02:05, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

If integrity mattered, the gift economy theory, would be a little more fleshed out. As it stands now, it is little more than a mantra. I suspect most participants in the anti-globalist movement are just exploiting an excuse to misbehave and enjoy a sense of belonging to a counter-culture, but there should still be some constructive thinkers able to contribute to gift economy theory, so that it can be subjected to critical analysis. There is not enough there to shake a stick at, nonetheless call an "economy".--Silverback 02:26, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Anarchism has nothing to do with chaos, sloppiness, disorder or anything else that this "anarcho"-capitalist POV war is demonstrating. Once the article gets to the point where that is clear I will be satisfied. --Bk0 02:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That is one thing we can agree on, I doubt any of us would be interested in anarchism if it was. The question is, are some anarchists intending a society that can only exist if all dissent is coercively purged, or has high levels of social ostracism. Many who think they would be the ones to survive the purge, may be like the vietcong dupes who thought they were fighting for something noble and ended up getting re-education camps, or worse.--Silverback 03:02, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

I for one am opposed to all attempts to institute newspeak such as using "left-anarchism/anarcho-socialism" when one simply means "anarchist." What re-education camps do you speak of? Do you know what you're talking about? --albamuth 12:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Could you please tone down the crazy ranting? This page would have a lot fewer than 19 archives if the Wikipedia is not a soapbox suggestion was taken more seriously. --Tothebarricades 03:16, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Please Stop

Let the defenders of anarcho-capitalism have a section in the Anarchism topic that referes to a page on which they can expound on it.

Let the Socialist-Anarchist defenders have the same.

Let the Anarchism page be the index to the Anarchism content in Wikipedia as it once was.

--Juanco

The article already have disambig in the form of the message This article describes a range of political philosophies that oppose the state and capitalism. For other uses, see anarchism (disambiguation). That should work fine. // Liftarn

I agree with Juanco. Let's go back to the following Neutral Disambiguation Page and avoid edit wars.

Anarchism is derived from the Greek αναρχία ("without archons (rulers)"). Thus "anarchism," in its most general meaning, is the philosophy or belief that rulership is unnecessary and should be abolished. For other usages, see anarchism (disambiguation).

Anarchism may mean:

• Anarchism (anti-state) - the theory or doctrine that all forms of government are unnecessary, oppressive, and undesirable and should be abolished.

• Anarchism (socialist) - philosophies, movements, and ideologies that advocate the abolition of capitalist exploitation and all other forms of authority.

Hogeye 15:45, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As you indicate - the original Greek meaning does not literally apply to the Anarchist philosophy and movement. But the rest is incorrect - No encyclopedia or textbook on the subject defines there being two camps. The only editors being divisive on this page are the Anarcho-capitalists such as yourself ..who want anarchism split up to satisfy your own propagandic needs. max rspct 17:04, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Max> "The original Greek meaning does not literally apply to the Anarchist philosophy and movement."

Are we reading the same thing? The Greek etymological meaning is exactly the same meaning as today - without rulers, i.e. without a State (in more modern terms.)

Max> "No encyclopedia or textbook on the subject defines there being two camps."

Right. Mainly because there is a distinct owner of the article, and in most cases one writer. In Wiki, there are a bunch of authors with no/contested ownership, so many straightforward propositions become battlefields.

Max> "The only editors being divisive on this page are the Anarcho-capitalists such as yourself..."

Get real, Max. The anarcho-socialists are just as intransigent. They too refuse to budge an inch on the definition of anarchism, and denigrate all objective sources such as dictionaries and even the words of their own luminaries. What you're really saying is that the anarcho-socialist clique temporarily had control of the article until people with a different point of view showed up again.

19 archives and counting

Hey, has anybody else read the 1st archive for this talk page, back in 2002? They were debating Anarcho-capitalism then too, and we have been, for 3yrs now! Can we just make the needed edits (NPOV, inclusion of all verifiable POV's, disambig page...) and put this one to rest already?!? Sam Spade 17:29, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sure, as long as your conception of NPOV is actually neutral ;) --Tothebarricades 18:07, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

Question: How can I pull up a 2002 version of the anarchism article from History without hitting "next 50" a thousand times? Hogeye 19:37, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just change the limit= and offset= values on the URL you get after clicking "next 50". You can jump thousands of edits that quickly that way. Sadly, there's no way of guessing how many you have to jump; do a binary search to find them. --cesarb 19:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism&limit=500&offset=2500&action=history). Notice the history ends rather abruptly; the article is even older than that, but the history was lost when the software was upgraded to the current one (in fact, the older software lost the history after some time; the upgrade didn't have much to preserve). See Wikipedia:Usemod article histories for details. Probably there was talk earlier than 2002 too, also lost. --cesarb 19:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Cesar. Of interest: it didn't start out claiming that anarchism was anti-capitalist, as today's ansoc partisans are demanding. It used the commonality of all anarchisms approach - i.e. anarchism is anti-statist but not necessarily anti-capitalist. "b" in the survey. The original def was:

Anarchism is the political theory that advocates the abolition of all forms of government. The word anarchism derives from Greek roots an (no) and archos (ruler).

Hogeye 20:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And the rest of the article remained even-handed in its discussion of capitalist and socialist varieties of anarchism. I guess it was later that the socialists moved in en masse and shifted the focus of the article. *Dan* 20:38, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

The question is whats to be done, both here, and in other articles where a POV lobby group has taken over... Thats why their considering a content arbitration commitee, but I'm not sure thats the right approach... what would an anarchist do? ;) Sam Spade 21:27, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's amazing to me how the Anarchism article has gone downhill over time. This article from 23 Jun 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism&oldid=117294) is a hundred times better than the current article. One way that it's cleaner is that, instead of talking about every little sub-movement, it just discusses the three major divisions: libertarian socialism, anarcho-capitalism, and individualist anarchism.

The Swiss cantons of old simply divided when faced with fundamental differences (e.g. Reformation.) There are semi-independent half-cantons and even (I think) quarter cantons. The obvious way to solve these definitional disputes is to split the question, letting each faction have their way in their own article. That's why I still support the Neutral Disambiguation Page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism&oldid=14880685). Maybe others will figure it out after three more years of edit wars... Hogeye 21:44, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. The old version even had a section on individualist anarchism, which the POV collectivists have taken upon themselves to censor in subsequent versions. RJII 23:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes the big history is interesting. What's wrong with the current Individualist anarchist section? It has similarities with a-C which also has a hefty section. max rspct 00:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) the article is in fairly good shape at the moment no? max rspct 00:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What individualist anarchist section? There isn't one. It isn't included as a school of anarchism. It's just mentioned in the internal conflicts section. The POV collectivist anarchists took the section out, apparently since the individualists support private property and a market economy. RJII 00:36, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

LOOK = Individualism vs. collectivism:
While most anarchists favor collective property, some, such as individualist anarchists of historical note support a right to private property. These include Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner. Tucker argues that collectivism in property is absurd: "That there is an entity known as the community which is the rightful owner of all land, Anarchists deny...I...maintain that ‘the community’ is a non-entity, that it has no existence..." He was particularly adamant in his opposition to "communism," even to the point of asserting that those who opposed a right to private property were not anarchists: "Anarchism is a word without meaning, unless it includes the liberty of the individual to control his product or whatever his product has brought him through exchange in a free market—that is, private property. Whoever denies private property is of necessity an Archist." However, these individuals opposed property titles to unused land.

Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner, Tucker opposed property titles to unused land? DON'T SOUND LIKE anarcho-capitalists TO ME -max rspct 09:40, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The former Anarchism (anti-state) article (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchy&oldid=15659925) included the individualist anarchists. Naturally. With a big ol' picture of Lysander. Hogeye 00:51, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to remind everybody battling the capitalists that although they may pretend to sound like us and sound like they're being reasonable saying "come on guys, enough arguing let's just work together and get this done", what they're REALLY saying is "let me get you bent over a little bit further so you can feel this giant capitalist edit coming into you!" Don't be fooled by sam spade's sudden apologetic tone or hogeye's sudden difference of word formation. There is no issue of POV or NPOV except the asotounding POV that capitalism is compatible with anarchism! We all know this to be completely false, has been false througout all of anarchist history and is totally false today, when not a single anarchist action taking place in any place in the world has even the slightest connection to this completely made-up linguistic vandalistic ideology! Don't go soft now, that's what what those who want to make wikipedia a billboard for their own little opinion want you to do! --Fatal 01:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sheesh, this is not a war. Tone it down a bit, please. --cesarb 01:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Summary of Arguments / Proposals

Let me try to summarize the arguments the two editorial factions have made (I invite others to try the same or add to the list, just place commentary afterwards). This is a summary, so try to make each comment/bullet entry as BRIEF as possible (one sentence!) and please do not erase/revise others' entries. Use a comments section below for further discussion, please. Again, this is supposed to be a summary of arguments made, not a section for new ones. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) I'm going to go ahead and edit some of the longer comments (move them to comment section, and put in a one-sentence placeholder) --albamuth 12:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pro Anarcho-Capitalist Arguments

• Gustave de Molinari was first anarcho-capitalist, in 1849

invalidated - wikipedia:no_original_research albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Validated (and proven not original research) by the Hoselitz quote above (among other things). Furthermore, there was some agreement earlier to refer to Molinari (and Godwin) as proto-anarchists rather than anarchists - a solution that perhaps everyone can live with. I.e. Gustav de Molinari was a proto-anarcho-capitalist, and should be included in the history as such. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Individualist anarchism will be included as a school of anarchism, and anarcho-capitalism will as well by the same basic reasoning

refuted - individualists were against capitalism and were part of the anarchist movement albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Validated since both schools are anarchist (anti-state). Anarchism is compatable with all economic and property systems consistent with statelessness. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid Even though traditional individualist anarchism opposes collectivist anarchism (left anarchism) it's still anarchism. Likewise, even those anarcho-capitalism opposes collectivist anarchism and some of traditional individualist anarchism, it's still anarchism. The reason for both cases is that both traditional individualist anarchism and anarcho-capitalism are opposed to the existence of a state and in favor of voluntary relations between individuals. RJII 02:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Indiv. were for private property, and so are anarcho-capitalists. Individualists are considered anarchists, so then should anarcho-capitalists.

invalid equivocation, straw man - nobody is using private property / collective property as a qualifying principle. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Irrelevant since anarchism specifies no particular economic system. See previous. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

irrelevant but interesting because traditional individualist anarchists believed that those who opposed private property were not anarchists. The same type of thing is happening with collectivist anarchists and anarcho-capitalists. RJII 02:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• X, Y, and Z encyclopedias/dictionaries only say that anarchism is against the State.

invalid - biased sample, perhaps even appeal to unsound authority, certainly historian's fallacy. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Valid The sample was automatically generated by a search engine. I obviously had no control over it. The argument that you should ignore dictionaries and encyclopedias and even past anarchist luminaries and, instead, take a poll, is ... not good scholarship. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Proudhon/Emma Goldman/Kropotkin were not against capitalism, so thus A/C should be included...

??? I believe it to be a false premise but have not bothered to dig up the evidence to the contrary myself. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Strawman No one here has claimed that PP, EG, and PK were not anti-capitalist. The claim is: they defined anarchism as anti-statist, not as anti-capitalist. This is the third time Alba has demonstated a failure to grasp the difference between giving a definition and propounding one's philosophy. Luckily, PP, EG, and PK had a better grasp. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"...we maintain that already now, without waiting for the coming of new phases and forms of the capitalist expoitation of labor, we must work for its abolition. We must, already now, tend to tranfer all that is needed for production—the soil, the mines, the factories, the means of communication, and the means of existence, too—from the hands of the individual capitalist into those of the communities of producers and consumers." — Peter Kropotkin, "Economic Views of Anarchism" (original emphasis). I'd refer to quotes from Proudhon and Emma Goldman as well but it isn't worth my time. Your argument is absurd and invalid. --Bk0 02:57, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proudhon was soundly anti-capitalist in his productive period; his later transition to "mutualism"/federalism (and, incidentally, Roman Catholicism) is irrelevant to anarchism. Trying to argue that Goldman and Kropotkin were capitalists is laughable. --Bk0 01:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The way the "anarcho-socialists" are trying to control this article is not very anarchistic.

invalid - ad hominem albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid Ad hom (circumstantial) if it was used as an argument. We agree on one! Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Capitalist Anarchism is a 'school' of anarchism

unclear - is the usage of "schools" even appropriate? albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Obviously by definition of anarchism. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid and a very noteable and influential one at that (all without having to riot in the streets). RJII 03:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid it is marginal at best. From my own experience (yes I know "wikipedia:no_original_research") I can simply count the different types I've met. I have met two CAs, one IA over 500 (at the same time) anarchists (proper) and about 1500-2000 syndicalists (at the same time). That shows how "noteable and influential" that group is. They are about as influential as Flat Earth Society is on modern geology. // Liftarn

• Old versions of the article show strong representation of Anarcho-Capitalism

Probably relatively stronger than recent times, since anarcho-socialists have taken over. Hey, we're back! Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Arguments Against Presentation of Anarcho-Capitalism as Anarchist

• Anarchism was anticapitalist before Rothbard so that's the way it is

invalid - appeal to tradition albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - just because the various schools of anarchism in the past were against state-backed "capitalism," it does not logically follow that anarchists cannot favor non-state capitalism. This is a case of people being stuck in the past and wanting to keep everybody else there. Of course, anarcho-capitalism, is incompatible with "traditional anarchism." But, so what? This article is called "Anarchism," not "Traditional Anarchism." RJII 02:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• A/C is an oxymoron because anarchism is anticapitalist.

invalid - the dispute is about whether or not anarchism is to be defined as anticapitalist. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

By the same logic one could say that a flower is defined as a plant, but it isn't defined as growing in dirt and requiring water, so those things aren't necessary. From a basic definition you draw obvious conclusions. Anarchism is against hierarchy, therefore it will be against, for example, sexism. Capitalism is yet another obvious thing that anarchism is against. --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Petito principi Alba is correct. Claiming "anarchism is against hierarchy" begs the question: Does anarchism mean anti-state or anti-hierarchy? Hogeye 02:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is not rule of anarchism to be opposed to "hierarchy." You think all anarchism is collectivist anarchism. Traditional individualist anarchism does not oppose voluntary boss and employee relationships as long as they stick to the labor theory of value. Involuntary hierarchy is opposed, of course, but not hierarchy in itself unless you're a collectivist anarchist. Maybe you don't think traditional individualist anarchism is real anarchism? If so, you're wrong. RJII 02:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Whether or not they use the word "capitalism," all historical authors but Rothbard are against capitalism as defined by wikipedia.

What about the French physiocrats, and the Economists (Bastiat, Molerini et al)? Not to mention Tucker and Spooner, who had more in common with ancaps than ansocs. Then there's Von Bauerk(sp), Mises, Hayak, and various Old Right folks like Chodorov and HL Mencken and Oppenheimer and ... These guys didn't call themselves "anarchist", but definitely wrote aboout what we today would call anarchist theory. Oh darn, you had me going...

Irrelevant We want to know the definition of anarchism - its essentials and differentia. How "anarchism" was used in the past is not directly relevant. Hogeye 02:32, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• All other "schools" of anarchism are mutually compatible; A/C is not.

Actually all schools of anarchism are compatible with each other in the broad sense, all major things are the same, like the abolition of hierarchy. And if you're one of these people that likes to use the word government because you think that excludes other hierarchy, i've got news for you, they're synonyms. --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Again, as I pointed out above, traditioanl individualist anarchists do not oppose hierarchy as long as it's voluntary. All anarchism is not collectivism. That, together with the individualists' advocacy of private property rights and a market economy pit them squarely against the collectivist anarchists and they say so themselves. RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

False All schools are fundamentally opposed to the State, ergo compatible to that extent. Hogeye 02:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Anarchism is a growing social movement, A/C is not.

What's a social movement? If it's rioting in the streets, then no, A/C is not a growing social movement. It's an intellectual one. RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bullshit You haven't compared page hits for LewRockwell.com, compared to, say, Infoshop.org, have you? Hogeye 02:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know the exact numbers involved, but the libertarian movement is large and significant, with many publications and organizations (though, as others have noted, they're less prone to rioting in the streets and smashing things, which makes them less-often in the news; however, the local newscast in my area yesterday specifically mentioned the Libertarian Party as the instigator of a successful move to get the county to repeal its ban on Sunday liquor sales). Within the libertarian movement, there are more minarchists than anarcho-capitalists, but anarcho-capitalism (often referred to within the libertarian movement as simply "anarchism", since that term has the meaning of "anti-government" with no socialist baggage in these circles) is widely recognized as the most pure and extreme form of libertarianism even if most libertarians decline to go that far themselves. *Dan* 03:29, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

• The proponents of A/C inclusion are a small number of zealous campaigners.

invalid' - appeal to ridicule albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - First of all, I haven't seen any evidence that those proponents of the inclusion are anarcho-capitalists. RJII 02:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

true // Liftarn

• This list of arguments shows that the pro-A/C faction is wrong (implied).

invalid - possible argument from fallacy, it's not what I'm trying to do, anyhow. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• "left-anarchism" and "anarcho-socialism(ists)" are neologisms used in an attempt to re-characterize the anarchist movement.

valid - Phrase(s) coined by Wendy McElroy, not used by other idealogues. They aren't even in the wikpedia list of isms. albamuth 05:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - That's preposterous. What evidence do you have that McElroy invented the term "left anarchism"? The term has been in wide usage for a long time. An older alternative term for left anarchism, that's been in use for ages, is "collectivist anarchism" [3] (http://www.weisbord.org/conquest11.htm) RJII 05:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

true // Liftarn

Proposals for Common Solution

• Removing 'Schools' approach in favor of developmental history of anarchism as movement and philosophy.

I like this idea, because I thought of it. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Using public survey to settle definition dispute

logical fallacy - argumentum ad numerum even though the anti-A/C side is clearly "winning" albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Neutral Disambiguation Page as proposed by Hogeye

pointless - using anarchism (socialist) just replicates the dispute. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand, Alba. It looks to me like the dispute disappears. The ancaps can tweak their Anarchism (anti-state), and the ansocs can tweak their Anarchism (socialist). Instead of agreeing on a definition (ha!), all we have to do is agree not to vandalize the other article. How is this replicating the dispute? Hogeye 02:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Comments

Well, almost every argument made by either side is either fallacious or has been refuted. Where does that leave us? I think arbitration may be next. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let's say that by some chance we come up with a consensus. What does it matter? As soon as we get the article the way we want it, a few new guys will show up that weren't a part of that consensus that don't agree with how anarcho-capitalism is represented. Then all of a sudden there's a lack of consensus and we edit war again. I'm just pointing out the futility of the whole procedure. I say just unlock the article and let it be. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and happen over and over and over. Recognize the futility of what we're doing. Don't kid yourselves that we're going to come up with any sort of finality here. All of our edits will be erased an infinite number of times over. Enough is enough. Unlock the article so it can be edited. RJII 02:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation note?

Hogeye/others, since you seem to have admitted the following: 1) There are multiple definitions of anarchism (as is evident by your forking) 2) You wish to avoid an edit war ; on what grounds can you continue to oppose pointing the reader to anarcho-capitalism by means of a disambiguation note? It is standard policy to do this if one meaning is more notable. That anarcho-capitalism is less notable than what you call "Anarchism (socialist)" is clear, no argument necessary.

So I have two questions:

• 1) Does anyone else see this as a reasonable solution?
• 2) If not, on what grounds?

If the answer to the second is irrelevant to wikipedia policy and consists solely of biased whining, you will be ignored. --Tothebarricades 01:30, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

TTB> "On what grounds can you continue to oppose pointing the reader to anarcho-capitalism..."

For the umpteenth time: the issue is not about the anarcho-capitalism article. The issue is about the Anarchism article - in particular, whether it uses the broader dictionary definition, or the narrower popular definition. The article Anarchism (anti-state) (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchy&oldid=15659925) includes all major schools, socialist and individualist and capitalist alike. The Anarcho-capitalism article is solely about anarcho-capitalism and its history/influences. Click and compare. Not the same at all - different subjects. Hogeye 02:56, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It appears that the goal of this capitalist POV war is not to present their "anarcho-capitalist" "philosophy" in an acceptable, NPOV manner; but rather to dilute the definition of anarchism to the point where it loses all coherence and connection with anarchist tradition and history. It is reactionary in the extreme and not at all benign. For that reason alone I'm not comfortable with the "Anarchism (socialist)" nonsense. It's not socialist, it's anarchist. --Bk0 01:46, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"...or the narrower popular definition." - Unfortunately for you, Wikipedia always uses the "narrower popular definition" in favor of dictionary definitions (especially when most people would equate the two, since seeing capitalism as "cooperative" is a little off the wall). And that definition gets the main article. Also, by saying, "Click and compare. Not the same at all - different subjects." - are you saying that you agree with what we were saying all along, i.e. that anarcho-capitalism is an entirely different topic? --Tothebarricades 03:26, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Disambiguation pre-amble

I proposed the following preamble on the VfD page, which was supported by at least one other user. I propose it again here to end the editwar:

The term anarchism is also claimed by anarcho-capitalists. This article deals with the predominant political usage of the term anarchism within international English. For other uses of the word anarchism, see anarchism (disambiguation).

This proposal mirrors the construction used successfully on Libertarianism to end an editwar, where (incidentally) the balance of forces between running dog lackey capitalist-roaders, and damn commo marxist pinkies was the opposite. Fifelfoo 05:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I would use the wording The term anarchism is also claimed by other groups. This article deals... as it's also claimed by crypto-anarchism and national anarchism. Or for that matter the current one does the job. Why change something that works? // Liftarn