Talk:Adolf Hitler/Archive 1

Did Hitler start World War II or was he only one of the persons starting it?

heading added by me Since World War II as such began in Europe, I don't see why we can't just say Hitler started World War II? The ongoing Sino-Japanese War was not considered a part of World War II until Japan attacked the United States and the United Kingdom in December of 1941. john 22:48, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

A number of Historians feel that World War II started in ~1933 (see the WWII article); furthermore, actions by Italy and Russia were also quite aggressive. In addition, Germany itself blamed the war on the Allies. I really don't think its fair to say that he single-handedly started the war; of course, if you have somebody you'd like to quote on this, feel free to use a quote to that effect. Lirath Q. Pynnor

I'd say the general consensus on the start of World War II proper is that it began on September 1, 1939, with the German invasion of Poland. I suppose one might argue for the British and French declarations of war two days later. But, as I said, the Sino-Japanese War, and even more so the invasion of Ethiopia or the Spanish Civil War, were, while related, not the same thing as World War II. Only in retrospect can they be considered to be a part of the same war. I'm not sure what actions by Russia prior to September 1939 could be seen as particularly aggressive (although their conduct in Spain was certainly odious). In any event, the article would not say that he was the instigator of World War II, but that he is widely seen as such, which is hardly controversial. john 22:56, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why not be more accurate tho, and note that Germany had little to do with the Pacific. part has been moved to Talk:Adolf Hitler/mentioning the (mis?)spelling Adolph Lirath Q. Pynnor

If we establish a precedent of saying what Hitler was not responsible for, we would have to note that he was not responsible for the Peloponnesian War, the Thirty Years War or the War of Jenkins Ear. Or rather, in correct Wikipedia style, we would have to say that "some people say" he was not responsible for those wars, thus leaving open the logical possibility that some other people (User:Khranus, perhaps) say that he was. Then we could spend six months arguing on Talk:War of Jenkins Ear about whether he was or not. Adam 23:12, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

But we can easily note what he wasn't responsible for, by clearly noting what he was repsonsible for; ie: the European war. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Yes, which is why I said "World War II in Europe". I think that's better than "the European theatre of World War II," which implies that World War II had already started in another theatre. part of posting has been moved to Talk:Adolf Hitler/mentioning the (mis?)spelling Adolph john 23:46, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Giving exact dates of Hitler's Chancelorship and Führer-ship is making the first sentence hard to read

heading added by me

the text looked like this before the changes: "was Chancellor (January 30, 1933 - April 30, 1945) and Führer (August 2, 1934 - April 30) of Germany."

All those dates in the introductory sentence make it very hard to parse and to read. The birth/death dates where they appear conform to a fairly familiar encyclopedia convention, so they aren't such a stumbling block as the others. Could we take out the date ranges of his chancellorship and fuhrer-ship? It seems to me that if readers know when Hitler lived then they're already acquired the gross conception of historical context that one hopes to convey in an introductory summation. Can't they wait until later in the article to learn precisely when he attained first this form of leadership and then that one? I think most readers curious for that info would have the patience to do so. 168... 22:19, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Lirath Q. Pynnor

Was Hitler Gay?

Recently, a new hypothesis, explaining Hitler's behavior, has emerged. This makes the clame that Hitler was himself a homosexual. This claim hinges on a number of things. The claim first arose from an inerview with a former squadmate conducted in the 1950's. Here he mentions that Hitler was very detached and showed effeminate behavior. Also, he expressed more intreast in art then women. The squadmate also makes the claim that Hitler was cought having sex with another member of his squad. These claims were initally debunked since the man who made them was a career criminal. However, being gay would explain some of his behavior. It is notable that Hitler seemed uncomfortable around women. Also it is belived that Hitler did not have a sexual relationship with Eva Braun. Hitler's maids said that they checked the beadsheats for evidence of sex, however, they never found any. Hitler's neice, the only other woman he had a relationship with, commited suicide, presumibly due to the fact that he was molesting her.

I'm speachless. This is so filled with homophobic bias that I don't konw where to begin. Being detached, more interested in art and uncomfortable around women (an adolescent boy trait NOT a gay trait!) are not indications of anything other than what they are. This type of outing of Hitler is also insulting - read: being gay explains his behavior. So that is why he caused the Holocaust? --mav 05:35, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

There are theories, none of them especially credible, that Hitler was gay. (How that explains genocide, I don't know.) This might be worth salvaging, with the ridiculous bias trimmed; I'll look into it. --Mirv 05:37, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hey, I didn't come up with it! I'm just synthesizing the guy who makes this claim. More information can be found in Lothar Machtan's new book "The Hidden Hitler."

There are tons and tons of stories about Hitler that all have a tiny bit of evidence for them but nothing within a mile of proof. Supposedly he only had one testicle (supported by the Russian autopsy, refuted by a Jewish doctor who examined him as a child). Supposedly part of his penis was bitten off by a goat (story from a classmate; I'm not making this up, promise!) Supposedly he liked to be pissed on (claimed to have been revealed by his niece to someone who later repeated it). Supposedly he had sex with 7 different women who nearly all tried (or succeeded) to commit suicide afterwards (US intelligence report). And so on, I'm sure there are lots more. Perhaps the article should mention that there are lots of unsubstantiated stories, but we shouldn't give credence to any of them. --Zero 08:30, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything to say that AH was gay, but there seems to be some evidence that he was a mostly a sublimator but engaged in coprophilia and urolagnia. This was also mentioned in a psychoanalytical study done for US secret sercvice. This (http://www.xmag.com/archives/4-09-mar97/article2.html) article deals with the available evidence. Very entertaining, and useful knowledge if you come across nazis and want to shock them a little (a welcome change to the nazis offending everyone else). pir 14:42, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Pfffff done with all the organizing. Oops it's 7 am and haven't slept yet. *blush* Laudaka 05:42, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps it wasn't made clear earlier that Dr. Lothar Machtan is a university scholar, a Ph.D historian, a full Professor of History at a German university. When such a scholar writes a book squarely in his field, perhaps we should not be so quick to dismiss it as not even being a valid POV. I don't think editors took a serious look, but deleted presumptuously. I think instead of deletion, a re-write was in order. The British Guardian/Observer didn't think one of his books was too crackpot to report on: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,564899,00.html See also a review of yet another book on the same issue by Professor Machtan at http://www.allreaders.com/Topics/info_10328.asp?BSID=0 Now, I am not saying Machtan is right, I am just saying that maybe there is new scholarship now that some of the sources we have read in the past did not know about. Maybe. We should be open-minded and neutral.ChessPlayer 08:27, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I deleted from the article, Profilers in Britain eventually dismissed these theories from official consideration, but they persist to this day in popular culture. as it is vague and worded in a way that makes it sound like the article is saying this is true, Hitler was not gay. To be NPOV, the statement must be re-phrased so that it is clear it is only an assertion by someone, and info should be provided who that someone is. The article cannot state to the reader that Hitler was not gay or bisexual, that is not a known fact. ChessPlayer 09:12, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I would like to know more about this. Who are these "profilers"? What source did the information for this statement come from? ChessPlayer 07:54, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

In response to your message on Hitler's Profilers:

I'm afraid I don't know their names, nor do I remember much about them. I know only that they were employed by the British MoD, and that they dismissed the theory of Hitler's homosexuality in the forties. I first heard of this on the History Channel or the Biography Channel. It was either a documentary called Why Did Hitler Murder Ernst Rohm?, which was an episode of Dead Men's Secrets, or it was a biography called Eva Braun: Love and Death.

In retrospect that section should have been more heavily researched, given the host of unsubstantiated rumors surrounding Hitler's sexuality, so my bit should probably be deleted for the time being. Binadot 15 May 2004

Thank you for your candid and informative answer. If we can make it into a factual statement, I have nothing against using what you present here in the page. If you wanted, it could be "In the 1940's, two researchers at the British Ministry of Defense dismissed the idea that Hitler was homosexual.", if you feel this is factual. Of course, we are implying that the MoD as a whole for the war was saying that the rumors where not true; do you feel comfortable with that, or would you prefer leaving the passage out for now pending better research? Also, shall we leave this text here, or shall I copy it all over to the Hitler Talk page? ChessPlayer 22:36, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

To answer your question, yes, the MoD's official position during and after the war was that Hitler was not a homosexual, but that he may have had other sexual peculiarities (i.e. masochism). Back when I wrote that section, I had the idea of expanding it and including everything about Hitler's private/sexual life. However, I never got around to that, nor to finding the original source.

I'm fairly certain that it's true, but I would prefer to find a source for it. Until then we should probably move that section, along with this talk, to the Hitler Talk page. Meanwhile I'm looking for the source on that information. Thanks for noticing and reminding me about this. I probably would have completely forgotten. Binadot 18 May 2004

Did Hilter have Syphilis?

Hitler's entry is linked from the entry for syphilis as a person who "probably had" the disease. The entry doesn't make any back reference.

I, [[User:JimD],] don't feel that I have the expertise in this topic to add any such material to the main entry. However, here are some links from a quick Google search.

* http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2842819.stm (Hitler Syphilis Theory Revived)
* http://poxhistory.com/work15.htm (Critical article characterizing the theory as hearsay)
* http://www.kimel.net/syphilitic.html

There are 34,000 other hits on that search. The few that I read seem to lack the scholarly standing for me to consider them as authoritative sources; so I suspect the issue should be adressed by reference to offline sources by experts or serious students of the subjects.

For a scholarly study of this question, check out the last reference in the syphilis article by the author of the book: POX: Genius, Madness, and the Mysteries of Syphilis (http://www.poxhistory.com/). In summary, Hitler's final doctors hid his condition and destroyed his medical records to mock the war crimes trials, so the only remaining proof is secondary.

Question about what happened to Hitlers body

Just a near-idle question for all you HItler experts.

I understood that AH's body was dug up by the Soviet when East German went away and was cremated, the ashes being scattered in the North Sea.

Other than my spotty memory, it there any evidence of this being true?

Paul, in Saudi

Just added the header Laudaka 13:16, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Paul/laudaka)

Was Hitler actually the 55th member of the Nazi Party?

In the BBC series "The Nazis: A Warning from History" it is said that the Nazi Party started numbering their members at 500. First question: Do you believe me that I saw this in this series? :-) (And I know it's important to be skeptic for an encyclopaedia.) Second question: If you do, do we trust the BBC series?

It is correct that the "Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (DAP) the predecessor of the NSDAP started counting at 500 to pretend a higher membership. And it is right that Hitler was member number 555 in the DAP. See: [1] (http://www.dhm.de/lemo/html/biografien/HitlerAdolf/). The NSDAP began counting with #1 Captain-c 14:13, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Now that's got to be the worst case of a punctuation error I've ever seen:

"The NSDAP began counting with #1 Captain-c"

Unless you really were NSDAP member number one, you forgot one crucial period there. Mkweise 01:33, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Unfortunately a transcript of the series or the text of the book is not on the web. If somebody finds it interesting you could of course buy one or both of them (just search the web for "nazis a warning from history" (WITH the quotes). Laudaka 13:16, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC) (Paul/laudaka)

Hugo Gutmann

Why is the following paragraph interesting in an article about Hitler? I don't think that's self-evident, so it has to be explained.

"It is interesting that man who awarded him the medal, his superior was Hugo Gutmann a Jew himself. Gutmann, born in Nurenberg in1880 immigrated to US (St Louis MO.), and was known under the name of Henry G. Grant. During the war he acquired a passionate German patriotism, despite not being a German citizen (a detail he did not rectify until 1932). He was shocked at the German capitulation in November 1918, when the German army was (so he believed) undefeated. He, like many other German nationalists, blamed civilian politicians (the "November criminals") for the surrender." Captain-c 09:08, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It is an interesting snippet (if true) but it doesn't belong in this article. I suggest it be made into an article of its own (with citation) and that this (Hitler) article have nothing more than a link to it. --Zero 11:23, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Should note, that in the "During the war he acquired a passionate German patriotism" sentence, "He" refers to Hitler, not Gutmann, as does all the rest of the material that comes after. john 19:42, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I like it much better they way John wrote it now. But it still has to be said why the fact (if it is a fact) is interesting. This is not self-evident. Is it interesting because Hitler later hated the Jews? Is there any relation between the fact that a Jew awarded Hitler and his anti-Semitism? Or what else could be interesting about said fact?

Yes, I'm not sure how interesting it is. Perhaps it's "worth noting" rather than "interesting"? At any rate, my main concern was that the way it was formerly written seemed to attribute various of Hitler's actions to Gutmann. which needs to be avoided. john 21:06, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I deleted said sentence about Hugo Gutmann. I think it is irrelevant for the article unless someone explains why the fact (if it is a fact) is important for Hitler himself. Captain-c 09:07, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, I imagine the idea is "Hitler hated Jews - but yet, a Jew was his benefactor." At any rate, I have no particular objection to removing it. john 09:36, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hitler as a painter

The new edit says that Hitler worked as a house painter for a while. I think that's a myth but I am bookless at the moment. --Zero 10:36, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Also, the passage about "Schiklgruber" contradicts itself. --Zero 18:53, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

He was certainly not a house painter. He was homeless for some time in Vienna, though, I believe. john 20:19, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In Vienna he worked as a painter, but not a house painter. He painted postcards and larger pictures. There's a book about Hitler as a painter. In German, though: PRICE, Billy F.: "ADOLF HITLER ALS MALER UND ZEICHNER". In "Mein Kampf" Hitler states that he always wanted to be a painter, an artist. Captain-c 08:30, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Here you can find (http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/fll/German/mobrien/enemy/Naziart/hitlerimage.html) some drawings of Hitler. Captain-c 08:34, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Dictator or legally elected Führer (leader) and politician?

All right. If Adolf Hitler was not a dictator, who was? - Hephaestos|§ 06:37, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's not that simple: Hitler first came to be chancellor by legitimate democratic election, and only later proclaimed himself Führer (a title that can fairly be translated as "Dictoator".) Mkweise 07:20, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hitler did not come to power by a legitimate democratic election, exactly, as has been pointed out numerous times. He came to power in what might be seen as a parody of Weimar democratic forms, at a time when those forms had been completely ignored by the very men who brought him into power for quite some time. Furthermore, Hitler can certainly be termed a "dictator" from well before Hindenburg's death in 1934 (which is when he officially became Führer). I'd suggest that the Enabling Act of April 1933, at latest, established Hitler as "dictator" in all meaningful senses of the word. john 07:54, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hitler became gradually a dictator. I think he was a 100% dictator when he succeeded Hindenburg as a president in 1934 and thereby gained control of the military. Andries 10:20, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's remains

I notice that someone deleted this paragraph on the grounbs that it is not documented. Apart from the detail about the SMERSH headquarters, which I haven't seen before, I think the rest of this story is pretty well established. Can anyone document this, or else refute it?

Hitler's partly burnt remains were found by the Russians. They kept this fact secret, and for years the Soviet Union fostered rumours that Hitler had somehow survived the war and was living in Latin America (where many ex-Nazis were actually living). In fact his remains were buried behind Smersh's East German headquarters in Magdeburg, and remained for 25 years under a yard later owned by a waste-disposal firm. It was not until 1970 that the remains of Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun were dug up from Magdeburg and destroyed.

Adam 07:37, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is a news story dating from 1999. There are several Internet articles examining the case but I am uncertain of their validity. Concider the following samples:

Sunday Times article (http://www.leesaunders.com/html/BurntBon.htm)
Antipas article (http://www.antipas.org/news/europe/hitlers_bones.html)
Jerusalem Post article (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2000/01/30/News/News.1871.html)
BBC News article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/725537.stm)
Online Athens article (http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/042700/new_0427000032.shtml)
Discussion at Third Reich Roundable (http://www.thirdreich.net/Hitler_s_Death___Body_Parts.html)
Article in the Annals of Improbable Research (http://www.benecke.com/airhihe.html)
A short article on Blondi, Adolf's dog! (http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=11366)

User:Dimadick

"Adolf Hitler is still regarded by many historians as a dynamic orator and one of the most influential...personalities of the 20th century"

Exactly which historians? See Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms - 216.195.149.84 07:46, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

All of them.

Actually, the sentence would be better cast as: Hitler was a dynamic orator and one of the most influential personalities ... No competent historian woud challenge either statement. Tannin 07:50, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Prove it with names. Again, I direct you to Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_terms. Please read it carefully. - 216.195.149.84 07:58, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Hitler was a dynamic orator and one of the most influential personalities..." has no weasel terms. - Nunh-huh 08:01, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"one of the most influential...personalities of the 20th century" is a blindingly obvious cliche. "dynamic orator" is also pretty meaningless. "powerful orator" might be better. Adam 08:04, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

As to proving it with names, I could start with Ian Kershaw, and go from there. I doubt even, say, Hans Mommsen or Martin Broszat, whose views tended to downplay Hitler's importance within the Third Reich, would (have) dispute(d) the statement under discussion here. Or that a Marxist like Tim Mason would have. Nazi apologist David Irving, who doesn't count as a credible historian, would likely also agree with this statement. Let's add Hitler biographers Alan Bullock and Joachim Fest. And good old intentionalists like Eberhard Jäckel, Claus Hildebrand, Andreas Hillgruber, Gerhard Weinberg, and so on and so forth. But this is pointless, all I've proved is that I've read Kershaw's The Nazi Dictatorship (ah, historiographical surveys, the holy grail of the graduate student...), and thus know the names of lots of historians of Nazi Germany, and it's hard to imagine any of them disputing the statement. On the other hand, Adam Carr is right that the phrase is pretty lame and meaningless. So whatever. john 08:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. Some names are all I'm looking for. I'd be even happier if you would include some as references. - 216.195.149.84 08:12, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lame and meaningless for you and me. These are facts. Someone could be reaing about Hitler in wikipedia for the first time. All statements look trivial from cetain level of expertise. Of course, "powerful" is better, but still it does't reflect Hitler's hypnotism over masses, but we are not writing a poem here. Mikkalai 08:19, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The purpose of references, 216, is that you cite them:

(a) To provide the reader with a starting point for further study. (So, for example, we might cite Bullock's Hitler and Stalin as a general biography providing a good, middle-of-the-road life and times sort of approach. Others too, of course, including contrary views as appropriate.)
(b) To provide evidence of any assertons you make which might reasonably be regarded as crucial to your point, as controversial, or as questionable. You do not reference every statement you make, only those that require support.

The statement you are questioning certainly does not fall into category (b), and a reference for it would only be appropriate if you were recommending a work that included a particular focus on Hitler's oratory. It's one of those very obvious "the sky is blue" statements that, unless you want to mention a particular work with a focus on just that facet of his personality, should normally be keft un-referenced. Referencing is all about including the essential supports for your argument and not wasting the readers's time and diverting his attention from the important things you have to say with trivial, obvious, or irrelevant links. Tannin 08:34, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If I was going to be very picky I would question the statement that "Adolf Hitler [was] one of the most influential...personalities of the 20th century." A "personality" is someone who hosts a TV game show. Hitler had a personality (that of a narcissistic hysteric I believe) but I would dispute that he was one. And it wasn't his personality that made him one of the most important figures of the 20th century, it was ther fact that he started a world war and murdered millions of people. (I knew there was a reason I decided to stay away from this page...) Adam 08:59, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Wait a second, isn't that quote from an old edit anyway? I thought something looked funny... Matt gies 09:05, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's one of the two common meanings of "personality", Adam. Given that sense of the word, I agree with you entirely. But "personality" can also be used in the psychological sense. Hitler had an extraordinary personality (in this second, more useful sense) and that is a great part of the reason he was able to start a world war and kill so many people. If Hitler had not been so enormously capable of charming, impressing, persuading, and motivating people by sheer force of personal presence, he could not have done what he did. Consider the example of Rommel, nobody's fool and a tough, self-disciplined military man. Rommel regarded Hitler very poorly until Hitler turned the force of his charm on him. From that point on, Rommel was Hitler's man through and through, and did not cease to be so until the sheer callous lunacy of Hitlers instructions to him (Rommel) during the dying days of the desert campaign brought home how badly he has been hoodwinked. That's a single example, but the literature is chock full of similar ones. Hitler was an extraordinary personality. The current article does not convey this essential truth about the man.

But to return to the sentence in question, yup: it's the sort of thing I'd expect to see in a Year 8 essay. We can do better. Lots better. Tannin

Maybe. At much of Wikipedia Year 8 standards rule. We'll see. Adam 09:30, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"a gifted orator with great personal presence" isn't exactly brilliant prose either. I was in the *middle* of developing that paragraph and having to deal with edit conflicts when all this back seat driving was going on over a sentence that was only in that paragraph for 20 minutes and was in the process of being refined by me. --mav

Image:Ah_berghof.jpg

Does anyone the source or licence of Image:Ah berghof.jpg? — Matthäus Wander 13:30, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I must say that that's a cute propagnda picture of the tyrant. -- user:zanimum

Images which have been created before 1960 had only 25 years term of copyright (old German copyright law before 1965), so I guess it's public domain. — Matthäus Wander 18:54, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

savitri devi claimed hitler was an incarnation of the hindu god vishnu

Schicklgruber

The paragraphs on the surname "Schicklgruber" are flatly contradictory. What's the real situation? --Robert Merkel 01:16, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I'm guessing you misread "Alois Hitler" as "Adolf Hitler", because I did that a few times too. --Zero 03:51, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Part-Jewish?

Was Adolf Hitler part-Jewish? --Lst27 21:50, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It is a myth for which there is essentially no evidence. --Zero 23:52, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A better answer would be: Nobody knows. No one knows who Hitler's paternal grandfather was, so no one can state that it is a fact that he [the grandfather] was or was not Jewish. There are only opinions on this matter, and in Wikipedia, NPOV requires that opinions never be asserted by the article, they only can be attributed and cited. See Neutral Point of View ChessPlayer 06:59, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Latest Revision

Now I know users like 172 are going to point to my most recent addition and call me Fascist. How dare I write anything nice about Hitler, after all, unless I were some knuckle dragging fascist.

I did this to prove a point.

This article paints hitler in a bad light. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, he certainly was an SOB and one of the most horrific leaders in human history, but if I were to write an article with this tone about Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin or the USSR, it would spark the mother of all edit wars.

I have seen an ongoing edit wart on Pol Pot with some of the most ludicrous and nonsensical justifications being made for his and his regimes behavior.

I wonder why that is? Why is it that a article which accurately condemns Hitler and Nazi Germany is not contested, but an article which would portray Stalin in a similar light would be flooded with apologists? Why does Wikipedia reward the most stubborn, and allow them to basically re-write history? Why the hell should we even be having this debate?TDC 15:35, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I fully support your addition. It is necessary to show all colors of the spectrum in order to get a NPOV encyclopedia, and inclusion of this particular matter is, if not for any other reason, warranted on its factual grounds. Fredrik 15:51, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's Testament and Dönitz

Inconsistency with another article

This article states that Hitler's testament appointed Dönitz to be Führer, but the Karl_Dönitz article claims Dönitz was to be President of Germany rather than Führer. This inconsistency should be researched and corrected. avarame

Headline text

What was Hilter like?

The rise to power of such an unpleasant individual is something which we should all be keen to avoid happening again and so an accurate character portrayl is important. I am bothered that he is portrayed as powerful only: and that the pictures we have included of him look cross. Life would be easier if evil men looked grumpy and had cleft feet. But Lady Moseley described Hilter as a charmer, a man with sparkling eyes. Bad-tempered spiteful men rarely get power. I think his personal charisma and particularly charm should be in the description as a warning to us. BozMo (talk)

Good point. You should add that. (But keep in mind that he did present an image of being powerful and angry during his speeches, and the Germans liked him for this reason.) Quadell 13:17, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

Most recent picture

I'm unsure what this picture illustrates for this article. Hitler is not particularly clear in it, and the leader he is shaking hands with is not mentioned much in the article. Furthermore, the captioning was rather POV and the section the picture was added to (The Holocaust) doesn't really seem the place. I think perhaps the picture would be better suited to an article on Naziism, where it could go along with discussions of other Nazi-supported governments. Snowspinner 14:32, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I f we have picture with mussolini than we will have the one with pavelic. BTW Croatia was puppet state. Puppet state is term in English language. Dictionary desribes it as state with a government that is appointed by and whose affairs are directed by an outside authority that may impose hardships on those governed.

So maybe you don`t like history of Croatia, but I don`t like it either.

Pavelic was Hitler`s "boss" for Eastern Europe and he has to stay.

Avala 08:54, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

Mussolini is notable as one of the three leaders of the Axis - a photograph of Hitler and Mussolini is thus of major importance because it's 2/3 of the leaders that World War II sought to overthrow. Pavelic is of less historical note in that regard, in that he wasn't one of the major targets of WW2. Furthermore, the placement of the picture was problematic in the extreme. Pavelic is not mentioned in the article - he is certainly not relevent to the Holocaust section in which the picture was placed. beyond that, it's not that good a picture - neither Hitler nor Pavelic are identifiable without a caption, etc. I'm not objecting to a discussion of Pavelic's role in Easern Europe during World War 2. I'm objecting to that picture, with that caption, at that position, in this article.

Also, please do not start new sections to respond to points that are being made in other sections. It makes noticing that you've replied to me tremendously difficult. Snowspinner 16:41, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia NPOV Policy

Everyone who edits at Wikipedia should go to Neutral point of view and study it until they understand it well. I see a lot of evidence in articles, including this one, that people have not done this. For example, I see articles where it appears that people think the policy advocates that a neutral point of view be argued in the text. This is not what the policy states. Other people seem to think that neutral means balanced, that it is ok for the article itself to assert a point of view, if it is done fairly. This also is not what the policy states. Others seem to feel that it is ok for articles to promote a point of view, if that point of view is overwhelmingly popular and not offensive to the vast majority of people. This also is not what the policy states. You need to read the policy page to understand NPOV, the policy is not intuitive. ChessPlayer 06:28, 14 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm hoping you're not targeting me as one of the failures to understand, as I've read over the page multiple times. If so, though, I'm curious exactly what you see my error as being. Snowspinner 16:41, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I wasn't targeting anyone. ChessPlayer 17:09, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Democratically Elected

The article claims Hitler was "democratically elected," but does not mention what office he was elected to, because it can't, Hitler was never elected to any government office. I think the statement is misleading and should be removed. Hitler was not elected, he was appointed. Hitler then gradually increased his power by politics and force until he was the sole authority. The enactment of the Enabling Acts was not an election, but a ceremony masquerading as an election. There was no real vote, as the choice was cooperate or die. If my memory is correct, the hardcore opposition was banned entirely from the chamber when the "vote" took place, and the rest where acting under knowledge that to oppose the Act was likely to get them tortured and/or killed. At no point in Hitler's rise to power did he get elected. ChessPlayer 01:37, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Ga. It didn't used to say that. We had a whole argument where it is patiently explained that we shouldn't say that. I'm going to look through the article and find out when that was put in. john 03:01, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

The version of the intro saying Hitler was "democratically elected" seems to have been introduced some ten days ago by an anon user. I've reverted back to the version previous to that. Except for the addition of a dubiously relevant picture of Ante Pavelic, I don't think any contributions of note have been lost. john 03:06, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Twelve-year Reich

ChessPlayer, regarding your point on the ironic "twelve-year Reich" sentence, I think it makes a good endpoint to that section: it makes clear the hubris of Hitler's ambitions. -- The Anome 17:55, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I completely agree that it makes clear the hubris of Hitler's ambitions. And that is why I deleted it. Making clear the folly of Hitler's conduct, is asserting an opinion by the article itself, and that is forbidden by NPOV. NPOV forbids the article to tell the reader, "this is good" or "that was bad". ChessPlayer 18:05, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

NPOV does not forbid any such thing. It is clearly idiotic to not suggest that genocide is a bad thing, at the very least for the victims. NPOV specifically states that articles should represent all views fairly. Retaining the "twelve-year Reich" sentence does not in any way compromise this policy Mintguy (T) 18:15, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, NPOV does prohibit articles from telling readers opinions like "genocide is bad" We are not allowed to tell readers what to think in matters of opinion, and its only an opinion that genocide is bad. That is not a fact. Hitler didn't think genocide of the Jews was bad, so clearly, its an opinion, and advocating opinions by the article itself, is a violation of NPOV. I am glad we are discussing this, as many people don't know the NPOV policy. Its ok, the policy is not intuitive. ChessPlayer 18:26, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

"Hitler didn't think genocide of the Jews was bad, so clearly, its an opinion,". NPOV does not mean "NO POINT OF VIEW". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view#Giving_equal_validity says ... that does not stop us from representing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the repugnant views; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many decent people feel toward them; and so forth, but equally we avoid weasel terms like "most people think genocide is a bad thing". There is nothing wrong with saying genocide is a bad thing if the vast majority of opinion believes that it is a bad thing, much like there is nothing wrong in saying that lager beer is best served chilled. As regards this sentence, stating explicitly that the Reich lasted 12 years is no more giving the article a biased point of view than it is to state explicitly that he was 56 when he died. If the sentence read the so-called "thousand year Reich" lasted a mere twelve years that would be a different matter. Please understand that NPOV does not mean removing all potentially emotional content from articles, because it could be interpreted as a point of view. Points of view are not BANISHED from articles, they are tempered. Mintguy (T) 09:30, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

You are misunderstanding what it is saying. It is saying that NPOV does not prevent us from presenting the majority's views; the article is free to, and should, present those views in depth. The views of those who abhor genocide should be given....and attributed to whoever has them...not the article. ChessPlayer 10:49, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

As someone who has been a regular contributor to Wikipedia for nearly two years, I think it's a bit rich for you to lecture me on NPOV, when you've only just arrived here. "The views of those who abhor genocide should be given....and attributed to whoever has them...not the article." - ridiculous. Please re-read this sentence and try to think what you would write in this case. Mintguy (T) 15:32, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

You raise points which I think are common misunderstandings of the NPOV policy. Let me quote:

To avoid endless edit wars, we can agree to present each of these views fairly, and not assert any one of them as correct. That is what makes an article "unbiased" or "neutral" in the sense we are presenting here. To write from a neutral point of view, one presents controversial views without asserting them; to do that, it generally suffices to present competing views in a way that is more or less acceptable to their adherents, and also to attribute the views to their adherents.

What this means is, the article does have NO point of view itself. All it has is the views of the various sides, each attributed to each side, with NO POINT OF VIEW advocated by the article. If the article is to have a point of view, this produces edit wars, as people fight over what the article's view will be. Supposing I was a Nazi. I would not like the article rubbing it in that the Third Reich lasted only twelve years. I would be insulted. I would want the article to end some other way. To avoid this problem, the NPOV policy was declared. Under NPOV, both a Nazi and a Jew can agree to an article, because the article will not make any judgements about either side. It will not brand the Holocaust as evil, but simply state that it happened. Neither will it brand Hitler as the best thing that ever happened to the Aryan race. What you advocate, is not NPOV, but a sort of appeal to consensus, and that is a different policy entirely. ChessPlayer 09:55, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

To elaborate further, NPOV allows readers to make up their own minds by being presented with facts. In the article, they can figure out, if they want to, that the Third Reich only lasted twelve years. They then can make of that whatever they wish. That is ok. But NPOV prohibits we, the editors, of suggesting the answer to them, by phrases such as Germany surrendered. Hitler's "Thousand Year Reich" had lasted a little over 12 years. , even though we the editors all hold that opinion, we all agree how well-phrased the final sentence is, and we agree how it makes a nice wrap up to the article...alll except one thing...Wikipedia has Jimbo Wales' non-negotiable policy to obey: NPOV. Articles can't advocate opinions, and it certainly is an opinion that there is something wrong with the 12 year life of a 1000 year Reich. We can't praise Hitler for improving the lives of Germans with better economic conditions; we can't speak ill of him for the bad things he did. We can't do both, and say because its "balanced" its ok. We can't do those things, because by doing them, we are making up our own definition of NPOV. We have to read and follow NPOV as Jimbo Wales says it is, and that means going to the official policy pages and learning them. Note: We ARE allowed to say economic conditions got better, if that is a fact. We just can't call it good or bad, or use it to say Hitler is good or bad; nor can we be clever in our selection of facts to suggest truths to the reader on matters of opinion. ChessPlayer 18:35, 15 May 2004 (UTC)

I think you need to re-read it. Bear in mind BTW that the text of the NPOV page is not different from any other on Wikipedia, what the NPOV pags says today is different from what NPOV said 12 months ago. Mintguy (T)

I just did. And I checked the page history. The article is pretty stable, and it is the official policy, right? Here is what it says:

The neutral point of view policy is easily misunderstood. The policy doesn't assume that it's possible to write an article from just a single unbiased, "objective" point of view. The policy says that we should fairly represent all sides of a dispute, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct.

So, our goal is not to try to write objective articles that assert some truth by consensus. The Hitler page is trying to do that, and its wrong to do so. What NPOV calls for is for the presentations of sides on anything not a hard fact. The article then presents the sides fairly, and the reader is left to make of it what they like, without any nudge from the article as who to believe. Earlier, you said some things which are flat out wrong. Wikipedia articles simply are not allowed to express opinions wether innnocent, like "Beer tastes best cold" or serious, like "Genocide is a horrible thing." What can be stated are facts: "Most people think genocide is a horrible thing." or "Most people like their beer cold". However, we have to be careful when using weasel words like "most people" as it often is used as a way of getting around NPOV so that the page is asserting the editor's views.

To sum up what I believe is a fundamental philosophic issue between us. I support the NPOV policy, and you don't. The NPOV policy calls for the creation of articles that simply present hard facts, and in any matter not factual, asserts no point of view, but instead repots the fact of what all the sides are on an issue. What you advocate is articles that reflect whatever the editors have agreed to as "fair." You are entitled to that philosophy on your own wiki, but this one is Jimbo Wales', and he insists on NPOV. Personally, I think Jimbo's way is much better, cause even with his way, there will be lots of edit wars, but with your way, the edit wars will be ten times worse. Your way also leads to the creation of gangs and factions and discourages the expression of minority views, because articles are allowed to advocate views. Currently, the Hitler article is advocating an anti-Hitler view by pointing out that he failed, and implying there was something wrong with him that lead to failure. However, suppose a group of Nazis wrote the article, and suppose they didn't have to follow NPOV; then they would write an article where perhaps the failure was due to the evil Jews, perhaps. Do you see why consensus of this sort is not a good way to run a wikipedia? If forced to follow NPOV, even a gang of Nazis have to produce a fair article, as all they can do is give hard facts and fairly present the views on anything that is opinion. The NPOV policy is very crucial to both keeping the articles honest, and to cutting down on edit wars. Because I believe that, I take so much time to support it, I feel I am doing the Wikipedia a valuable service, more valuable than spending the time improving articles directly.ChessPlayer 10:35, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

It would appear that a restructuring of the sentence may be satisfactory to you. After all, the fact that the reich lasted for 12 years is not disputed. The fact that its aim was to last for 1000 years also does not appear to be disputed. Oh, and as for your comment "the Hitler article is advocating an anti-Hitler view by pointing out that he failed" - please: the article can hardly be expected to omit any mention of his death, Germany losing the war and the reich ending. I can almost see your point of view though; however, it is not stated anywhere else in the article that the reich lasted for 12 years, and certainly I don't think I should be expected to have to deduce that myself (seriously). - wgm. 16 May 2004

Talk:FOX News. - V V 10:08, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

TIME 1938

The reason Hitler was on TIME's cover was because of the events in Munich. To mention TIME right after the events of 38 is exactly right. ChessPlayer 07:05, 16 May 2004 (UTC)

Who is to blame for the destruction of the war?

"The regime he led caused the deaths of millions and the displacement of millions more." - Only by a twisted, one-sided interpretation, can this statement be called a hard fact. It is as one-sided as saying, "The US caused the deaths of millions and the displacement of millions more in WWII" which is equally true. One sided statements that imply blame are POV and not allowed to be asserted by the article itself, but can be stated as the opinions of sources, when those sources are cited,

The crucial point here is the word "caused". Causation in historical works is almost always a matter of opinion, debate, and often controversy. To claim its hard fact here is completely unjustified.

I am rewording the intro so that it is not POV and blaming Hitler's "military-industrial" complex for "the deaths of millions and the displacement of millions more." If someone disagrees, let them show how this statement is not in the same category as stating that America, or Britain, or Russia caused it. History is not science, and historical analytical statements are opinions, and this one definately is. ChessPlayer 00:32, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Don't forget about the concentration camps. Fredrik 00:55, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

I think its factual to assert that Hitler was responsible for the camps. The sentence does not give the impression it refers to the camps, as it does not mention them, and the sentence before was refering to conquest. If it is the camps, then it should make that clear. ChessPlayer 01:08, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Hitler's sex life

The article mentions that Hitler may be gay. That is fine but then I also feel that I have to include to extensive evidence that Hitler was a heterosexual to balance it. That would make the article unwieldy. I propose removing the reference to Hitler's hidden gay life. Andries 07:36, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

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