Category talk:Gay icons
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I put Twiggy on the list unless anyone objects. I know the whole AbFab scene was tongue-in-cheek but I figure she probably qualifies. TheCustomOfLife 00:15, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Grace Kelly was deleted by Rienzo. I left a note on his talk page and said that he can come talk here if he has another objection, because I added her back. TheCustomOfLife 15:28, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Should a gay icon be a person who "has a strong appeal to gay people", or a person who is gay and is an icon? The second definition seems more intuitive to me. Seems to me this category could cause some confusion. Everyking 06:37, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Well, I'm responsible for the definition and I don;'t mind if someone changes it. However, the definition "is gay and is an icon" is completely wrong. Most (I believe) gay icons are not themselves gay. Notably David Beckham and various singers: Liza Minnelli and Judy Garland for eg. --bodnotbod 18:14, Jun 24, 2004 (UTC)
Is this category only for "gay icons" in the original sense (icons for gay men)? Or could someone who is a favourite of Lesbians qualify here? 207.69.140.35 21:43, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Sure, that would be fine. I added some lesbians (such as Ellen and Rosie) but I am not sure of, like, straight men or women being icons to lesbians, so if you know of any, please, add them. Mike H 18:23, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)
I visited this article after reading the Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Category:Gay icons crossposted to VFD for Category:Gay icons (see also Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/unresolved. I am hoping that the gay icon category is going to stay, so I have been looking to make it more useful by populating it with more individuals, while still trying to keep the category from getting too large and avoiding anyone who might be too controversial (Is Grace Kelly a gay icon, for example? --see talk:Grace Kelly).
While doing a Google search on "gay icon", I realized that there are, in fact, a number of categories of people that are being classified as gay icons, with the superset being "people that gays admire".
- The first group is the one that is already mentioned in this article -- larger-than-life individuals (usually female, often singers) who either consciously (Madonna) or unconsciously (Dolly Parton} have a camp persona and have a significant and enthusiastic gay fan base. Although not all divas are gay icons, most female singers who are gay icons are also divas. A large proportion of the female singers in this group would also be included in a "List of female singers impersonated by drag queens". There are also some actresses that qualify, such as Bette Davis and Mae West, but I can't think of any living actresses that strongly qualify as a gay icon (possibly Sharon Stone?). There are very few males who might fit this category, but Freddie Mercury of the rock group Queen is one of them.
- The second group that I often found doing a Google search was living openly-gay individuals who were successful in their field of endevor. This category also requires a certain amount of fame, so it is mostly entertainers and fashion designers that are mentioned in this category. An example would be Ellen DeGeneres. This and the first category definately have the largest percentage of mentions of "gay icons", although this category might actually have more webpages than the first category.
- There are also people from history who may or may not be gay, such as Joan of Arc. This may be the most problematic category because some people are listed based upon speculative and controversial opinions (see the discussion of the Apostle Paul [1] (http://gayheroes.com/paul.htm) at gayheroes.com for example). Oscar Wilde would be a typical member of this category and Alexander the Great would be another.
- Heterosexual individuals who actively support gays and gay rights may also be classified as gay icons. This is another category that Sharon Stone may qualify for.
- My final group are those males (usually heterosexual actors or singers) that gays admire for their appearance. I was surprised that I didn't find more men during my Google search that were refered to as gay icons. I did find a couple of web pages that called Jude Law a gay icon.
- Someone suggested at Category:Gay icons that some boy bands also were gay icons, but during my Google search, I didn't find any webpages that refered to any boy bands as gay icons. Although some gay men may be attracted to members of boy bands, since most of the boy bands try to play down any possible gay connection, I have my doubts about this group.
gK 00:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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CfD discussion
As the consensus at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion seems to be to keep this category (four keep votes and one neutral), I have archived the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Category:Gay icons. I hope that helps. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 23:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Suggested additions
I would like to propose the addition of Joan Crawford, Audrey Hepburn, and Elizabeth Taylor, but I don't understand how to add them. Maybe someone else can do it if they agree. Thanks.
I know there's only a stub but I think Ms. Patti LuPone needs a link too. So deserving.
Moving from list in article
I'm moving everyone from the list in the article Gay icon over to the category and deleting the list from the article so we don't have redundant information. I do not vouch for the quality or accuracy of the information, and I will not complain if anyone wants to discuss removing some of these people from the category. Philwelch 03:37, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I've transferred over the entire list from the article Gay icon and deleted the list. The next step (which I am woefully underqualified for) is to look through the category and make sure all of these people actually are gay icons. I think the list was somehow vandalized, because there were silly entries like Condoleeza Rice (and if Condi IS a gay icon, go ahead and categorize her as such, but I highly doubt it). At least this way, there are changes to many articles, and not just changes to one article, when someone decides to list someone as a gay icon--this should ensure accuracy. Philwelch 06:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Since no one else cares to, I've google-checked the whole category from A to K and removed quite a few who were apparent additions to the original list due to vandalism. This is more a note to myself as to where I left off, but if someone else really wants to help, go ahead and note it. Philwelch 06:28, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I'll help. This list just isn't right. - Jacottier 19:35, May 1, 2005 (UTC)
Attitude of subjects?
Should people be on this list if they are known to be offended by the association?(Not pointing to anyone,but it seems germane to qualifictation).--L.E./12.144.5.2 04:29, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sure people who have an aversion to a gay fanbase won't have that fanbase for long. Philwelch 04:35, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)
List too long
Alot of these people aren't really gay icons...I mean Nicole Richie? Please! Who wrote this crap?? Bremen 04:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- You're damn right. I merged from "List of gay icons" from the article Gay icon, but the list is no longer (I merged because of redundancy). The list was wrong in a lot of places. If you want to pick up the fact-checking where I left off, go right ahead. I stopped at "L". Philwelch 23:20, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Proof
I'm looking for proof on the gay icon status of some of the people in this category. Its not NPOV and people like Rowan Atkinson, Ashanti and Sarah Michelle Gellar don't appear to be clear gay icons. Theres people asking for this category to be sniped and with so many ridiculous additions, I can't blame them. Even a LGBT user has told me half of these people are far from icons in the gay community. Hedley 18:05, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'll start with these people:
- Rowan Atkinson
- Ashanti (singer)
- Christina Aguilera
- Take That (Stephen Gately would be fair enough)
- Gwen Stefani
I'd like some evidence on it, because unsourced information, as we know, gets deleted. This category annoys me for the point of not providing a source of iconism. Hedley 18:09, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Hedley, please REMOVE anyone you can't verify. That's what we've been trying to do ever since we merged the (deeply flawed) list in the article Gay icon. — Phil Welch 23:45, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, i'm planning to. I've spoken to a couple of LGBT contributors today and they've helped me see who is and who isn't. I'll remove the ones that clearly aren't now. One guy seems to of added the bulk and hes the one that will probably oppose removals, but he'll have to prove his case. Hedley 00:11, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I just removed a few. I'm not specialist on the subject, and i'm straight, but i'm pretty sure Lil' Kim, Rowan Atkinson and Mr. Clean (what the hell?!) aren't gay icons. In the summaries I put "Remove category gay icons - If you can verify his/her status as a gay icon inform at Category_talk:Gay icons", so people'll come and verify here if they are. At least theres a few less obvious non-gay icons now, but theres probably about another 40 in there. Hedley 00:27, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- It appears that you haven't taken the suggestion as given, "REMOVE anyone you can't verify" and have instead just removed the ones you feel like. It took me all of 30 seconds to google "gay icon" + "Mr. Clean" and find a source. [2] (http://archive.salon.com/people/col/reit/2000/02/07/npmon/). Perhaps it is better not to make a lot of changes on a topic you have admitted you have no interest in. Wikipedia:Contribute_what_you_know_or_are_willing_to_learn_about --Tabor 00:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Tabor: Imagine doing that process 300 times. That's what I started doing, but wisely quit, when I first started trying to fact-check this list. — Phil Welch 01:07, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have an interest in removing this category from music articles it shouldn't be on. As the person(s) adding the category seem to have decided every globallu successful female solo artist of the past 20 years is a gay icon, I think i've no choice but to help with the task of sorting out this category. It was either that or try CfD again. Hedley 01:25, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Hedley, check below for instructions. — Phil Welch 01:43, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Verification
I've verified everyone from A to L now. The query I'm using for Google is as follows:
"{name of celebrity}" "gay icon" -garland -minogue -cho -parton
This filters out a lot of the most famous gay icons (and thus a bunch of false matches) You'll see what I mean if you try to search without the limiters. In the past I've added -mercury to the above query to filter out Freddy Mercury, so if you run across that problem do that.
Also, those of course don't apply if you're verifying Judy Garland, Kylie Minogue, Margaret Cho, Dolly Parton, or Freddy Mercury, but then again, they don't really need to be verified.
If you can't find text in the first couple pages that says "{name of celebrity} is a gay icon" or the functional equivalent, de-categorize!
If anyone wants to volunteer to do some of the work, just sign up below. Sign three squiggles next to the letters you want to verify. Also, sign four squiggles and mark "done" in bold when you've finished it. I've left "L" on the list as an example.
L-O, Q, U, X-Z Done. — Phil Welch 02:11, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
P
R
S
T
V
W
— Phil Welch 01:32, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Can't remove user page from category
"User:Thkoch2001/Rockmusic and youth" is listed in the gay icons category, and I can't figure out how to get rid of it. The page that is linked to is some kind of weird compound page, and it has no category tags as far as I can tell. This might be a bug in which included pages impart their categories upon the including page.
- Andrew Moylan 13:35, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
That's exactly what it is. Have you tried leaving a note on his talk page? — Phil Welch 13:45, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's a bug? Bugger. I'll place a note as you suggest. Andrew Moylan 15:18, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Not a bug per se--you'd expect the include feature to include all the text--just an unforeseen consequence. — Phil Welch 01:05, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)