Academic Kids talk:WikiProject Webcomics/Notability and inclusion guidelines

Is this about a wikipage for a particular webcomic or also about listing in List of Webcomics ? --Dyss 11:46, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

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Are the comics on www.comics.com and www.ucomics.com nationally syndicated? Otherwise they'll have the same problems as KeenSpace comics. --zandperl 04:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm. I think most are, but I know ucomics.com has that Comics Sherpa (http://www.comicssherpa.com/) site now, which is supposed to feature non-syndicated comics. Comics that are syndicated probably shouldn't be listed at all, but those non-syndicated ones...

Well, a bit more digging shows that you can sort the comics on comicssherpa by rating (http://www.comicssherpa.com/site/home.html?list=ranking) (popularity), so maybe we could say only top 20 there as well? RADICALBENDER★ 04:48, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No more thoughts on this? It'd be good to see some degree of finality, because there's a few I'd like to create.

How about extending the Top 20 from Keenspace to Top 40, too? It'd include another couple of comics that I think are worthy. Ambivalenthysteria 03:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Although I see a few comics that I read that would be included by such an extension, I don't think there's enough to justify it at this time. -- Cyrius|&#9998 03:23, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Is the "Where do people go on keenspace.com?" metric ANY good? It lists Sexy Losers as the #1 destination (12%), and SL left keenspace ages ago. Ralphmerridew 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Ranking 2 Proposed non-notability template 3 Wikiproject: Webcomics 4 Inclusion 4.1 Inclusion Guidelines Counterproposal 5 Disambiguation standards

Ranking

What if a comic's Alexa rank drops below the threshold? Do we remove it? I see three possibilities: Remove it; Don't remove it; Remove it only if it doesn't have an article.

Secondly, what if a comic has no three-month traffic average? (not considering sites that have changed domains) Are they simply considered too new for listing? -- Cyrius|&#9998 03:21, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

We don't remove articles on anything else once they slip from the headlines. Why would we do this for webcomics? If they were relevant once, they have an article. With sites that are new, I think we should stay away, unless they've become rather notable in that time. Ambivalenthysteria 03:40, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I didn't think we would remove them, but since the proposed policy doesn't say, I felt it was a possible interpretation. But what about the current comic list? There's a number of comics on there that aren't notable, were never notable, and should be removed.

As far as new comics, I fully agree. My comment was worded with the intention of getting responses, rather than presenting my views. -- Cyrius|&#9998 04:51, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

You're right, but that's a matter of VFD. Once we can get agreement on a policy of handling them, I guess then we can go clean up the list. Ambivalenthysteria 06:03, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A problem with using Alexa is that it's often regarded as spyware, and is detected by spyware removal software such as Spybot and Adaware. Tim J Tylor 22:06, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Proposed non-notability template

I've created a {{minor webcomic}} template for articles about webcomics that do not qualify for inclusion by the current guidelines. It's intended to be used in the same way as {{notable}}, but explicitly mentions and links to the web comics policy. Does this seem useful? — Gwalla | Talk 20:35, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't these go on VFD if they don't qualify for inclusion? Ambi 21:46, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I suppose so. — Gwalla | Talk 00:10, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wikiproject: Webcomics

According to Wikipedia: Wikiproject Webcomics, I wrote Planet Earth (and other tourist traps). Please let me know if this is unacceptable. -Branddobbe 05:07, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

Inclusion

Eric Burns, at www.websnark.com, has proposed a different baseline inclusion guideline for webcomics that I suspect is more fair and still is going to avoid vanity pages. His proposal is that every comic with an archive of 100 strips or more should be included.

Yes, this is going to lead to a lot more webcomics being included, but I'm unconvinced that's a bad thing. One of the things Wikipedia is good for is providing encyclopedic coverage of smaller scale events and things that wouldn't make it in a normal encyclopedia because of space concerns.

Or, to put it another way, nobody outside of Wikipedia is going to catalog these webcomics, and, unlike a lot of things, I think a strong accounting of webcomics is something that is very helpful (As I think Websnark puts persuasively at [1] (http://www.websnark.com/archives/2004/11/a_modest_webcom.html).

Even if something more restrictive than a 100 strip archive is requested, I think these guidelines are needlesly fierce. At most 20 Keenspace comics? A 200,000 minimum Alexis Rank? Eek. I know we have problems with the profligation of vanity webcomic pages, but this swings too far in the other direction. How about we just deal with webcomics on a case by case basis on VfD like we do high schools and other such things? Snowspinner 06:58, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Snowspinner. (As you could probably guess I might). The idea that notability in what is essentially an artistic medium is wholly dependent upon popularity is, quite honestly, flawed. It took many years -- long after her death -- for Elizabeth Bishop to become well known, popular and anthologized as a poet, but as she was very popular among other poets her significance was considerable, and the aesthetic and critical importance of her poetry was certain. I think any system that relies upon the tyranny of popularity for inclusion in encyclopedic works will, ultimately, produce only articles of limited need. It is, in fact, the webcomics that develop depth, backstory and staying power but which don't have overwhelming popularity that need a centralized resource for webcomics fans to go to and learn more about them. Wikipedia is uniquely capable of providing a tremendous benefit to the webcomics consumer, but only if the articles are there. Quite honestly, it's rare someone needs to read up on Penny Arcade. But American Elf -- a strip produced by alternative artist James Kolchalka, a centerpiece of Joey Manley's Modern Tales family of comic strips, one of the most significant journal strips, one of the most successful (monetarily) pay-for strips and one of the most significant strips artistically (according to critics and significant artists in the webcomics community) doesn't fit the above guidelines for inclusion. One can only conclude that the guidelines do not meet the real need for encyclopedic information on the subject.--Eric Burns 07:09, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with this. The current webcomics policy is already much more lax than the general Wikipedia policy regarding websites. Wikipedia is not a web guide. The policy already accounts for comics that are notable for reasons other than their popularity. — Gwalla | Talk 23:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Inclusion Guidelines Counterproposal

Given my opinion that the guidelines as listed do not meet the needs of separating out the significant from the insignificant, instead rewarding simple popularity and denying smaller but sometimes more experimental or critically acclaimed works, it behooves me to produce a counterproposal to hopefully stimulate discussion.

This counterproposal takes the assumption that Wikipedia's articles, at their core, are a resource for web consumers -- a ready and central location for information on a broad variety of subjects. It is also the assumption of this counterproposal that a broad depth of webcomics, be they noteworthy due to popularity or noteworthy due to critical acclaim and aesthetic consideration, being represented in Wikipedia is of value to both Wikipedia and the webcomics community.

The following counterproposal is designed to produce guidelines based upon three basic criteria: commitment to the artistic work in time, commitment to the artistic work in effort, and a demonstrated fanbase. These would be determined as follows:

1. A webcomic must be on the web and actively producing strips for a minimum of 33 weeks before being considered for Wikipedia. During this time, any hiatus periods lasting more than 1 week will not be considered "active" and will not count to this goal. "Guest Weeks," fan art and the like would be considered hiatus periods for these purposes.
   1. Thirty-three weeks is the better part of a year. Many if not most vanity webcomics are abandoned within 12-15 weeks. By demonstrating the ability to produce over this period of time, a webcartoonist shows commitment and almost certainly artistic and aesthetic growth.
   2. Thirty-three weeks is the approximate amount of time a typical Monday-Wednesday-Friday strip would need to reach 100 strips if the artist never missed an update.
   3. Guest Strips and Fan Art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do not show commitment on the part of the webcartoonist, and so must be considered "inactive time" if the webcartoonist him or herself does not produce and post a strip of their own during the one-week period.
2. A webcomic must have at least 100 strips in its archive before being considered for Wikipedia. These strips must all be produced by the webcartoonist or webcartoonist team (though strips where the primary creator is actually the writer, recruiting several artists to produce the strips they write, would be considered "produced by the webcartoonist for the purposes of inclusion. Guest strips and fan art -- produced wholly by others -- would not.)
   1. 100 strips represents a significant amount of effort on the part of the webcartoonist, showing commitment that most vanity strips simply do not have.
   2. 100 strips is considered a milestone by most webcomic creators, and has some significance in the webcomic community.
   3. Guest strips and fan art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do represent neither the artistic growth of nor a commitment by the webcartoonist, and therefore would not be considered as part of the 100 strips for purposes of inclusion.
3. Someone other than the webcartoonist would need to actually write and develop the article in question.
   1. It is difficult for a webcomic's primary creator to adopt the necessary distance from his or her own work to write an encyclopedic article.
   2. The voluntary development of the Wikipedia article by someone other than the webcartoonist demonstrates fan support of the strip, and represents notability among a discrete population.

The ultimate goal of Wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion are to separate out those strips without note, commitment or worth, while highlighting those strips that possess note, commitment and worth. With the many thousands of strips available on the web, it is a losing proposition for any project of any kind to try and include them all. However, as the medium of webcomics and online sequential art grows and flourishes, it becomes increasingly important that there be repositories of factual and critical information on them, not bound to popularity but instead to significance. - Eric Burns

I would chime in here that webcomics creators already ought not write their own articles, as per the vanity pages policy Wikipedia already has. Snowspinner 07:51, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

That seems fair enough. On the other hand, maybe creators should not be disqualified from correcting factual errors in articles about their strips... Lee M 02:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Allow webcomic creators to respond to errors in the discussion pages; if somebody agrees, that person may make the correction. Ralphmerridew 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since when are creators disallowed from correcting errors in articles on their products? I think somebody is misinterpreting the policy against vanity pages. — Gwalla | Talk 23:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A lot of webcomics are in large comic-book page format, one page probably taking the effort of three or more newspaper-format strips. Maybe you should have different archive-minimum numbers for different formats. Tim J Tylor 22:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think 33 weeks is a little weak. I'd like to see a minimum of a year's worth of consistent activity, just so we know that the creator is serious enough to stick it out through everything that goes on in a year, and isn't just whittling away a lazy semester and a boring summer. I just can't believe that, in general, a comic that can't even stick around for a year could possibly be that signifigant. If there are exceptions to this, then they should be handled as exceptions (meaning just create the article and see if it survives a VfD). - Lifefeed 20:06, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

I have to agree. 100 and 33 are, IMO, very small numbers to use. Moreover, even a comic that lasted several times as long wouldn't merit a Wikipedia article if nobody read it. The mere fact that somebody's done something for a long time doesn't make it significant, and that's really all these guidelines measure. Popularity and/or influence on other work are the important criteria, I think. The latter is unfortunately difficult to measure. (Note that I'm not saying that popularity makes a comic "good", whatever good is, but it does make it notable enough for an encyclopedia article.) —Triskaideka 15:55, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think a year of consistent activity would be acceptable. Practically every halfhearted hobbyist effort makes it to 33 weeks and 100 strips. Personally, I'd prefer two years as a baseline—if something is to be included based on longevity, it should demonstrate longevity that is out of the ordinary (the ordinary being pretty weak in this case).

And I agree with Triskaideka that the most important criterion in notability is whether people have taken note. In general I prefer the earlier ranking-based guidelines to Eric Burns' how-long-they've-been-plugging-away-based guidelines. We should also make it clear, however, that these guidelines are only a fallback in case the comic has no other legitimate claims to notability (being covered in national or international news, being particularly influential, etc.) Webcomics are not an exception to the general guidelines of Wikipedia.

We shouldn't be bending over backwards to let every webcomic have an article just because they exist and we like the medium. Besides, if these inclusion guidelines are too lax, nobody on VfD will take them seriously, which would defeat the whole point. — Gwalla | Talk 04:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation standards

I just wrote a little question over on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics, about the fact that I noticed that among disambiguation add-ons to the names of web comics with common names, like Avalon, or Copper, or Freefall, there was no kind of standard behavior: It's Avalon (web comic) but Copper (comic) and Freefall (webcomic). Should this matter? Heck, between this page and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics, we can't even agree on whether it's one word or two (hell, I'm almost certainly inconsistent in my usage, as well). Any ideas, or does it just not matter one way or the other? --Ray Radlein 05:20, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)