User talk:Naryathegreat/Archive

Archive for 6/29/04-7/11/04

Hi. I think you were trying to do #REDIRECT [[Causes of World War II]] Secretlondon 01:30, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hi.

I wonder if you would mind explaining why you moved European Theatre of World War II? It is going to cause quite a bit of discussion and annoyance to say the least. The same applies to your other moves. Please stop doing them until we have discussed the issue.

DJ Clayworth 16:14, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Apology accepted. Welcome to the international world of Wikipedia. Hope you have fun; good editing in the future. If you edit lots of [[World War II] articles then we will probably meet again. I got started here because I found the Battle of Normandy article was pathetic, and I couldn't rest until it was brought up to a decent level. Then I found that the Allied invasion of Italy article was even worse... See you around. DJ Clayworth 13:04, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Poland's betrayal by the Western Allies

This article has been listed on Wikipedia:Votes for Deletion. Please cast your vote there, in favor of its deletion on grounds of POV.

I see that you erased my pieces of advice. Hopefully you'll bear them in mind in the future.

As to your comments on my Talk page: please allow me to spend my time on what I want. From the number of replies at the Talk:Poland's betrayal by the Western Allies page I assume that the topic is much more popular than you think. Also, wikipedia is not about popular topics. Check the Wikipedia:What is Wikipedia for more details.

As you already noticed, the article under construction is mostly focused on Poland. There are two reasons behind that:

• Since the article describes a sociological and historical phenomenon rather than a deed or a person, the article is mostly focused on the country I know the most.
• Also, in Poland the sense of betrayal by the Western Allies is the strongest (AFAIK). The purpose of this article is to explain why people feel/felt betrayed, not were the countries actually betrayed or could the Allies not betray Poland. I hope you get the difference. Also, you can ask any Pole here in English wikipedia if he heard of such phenomenon. I bet he )or she) would answer yes, despite of his or hers personal views or beliefs. If so, I believe that the topic is worth explaining.

It is somehow similar to the articles about psychology: the article on Agoraphobia explains why are people afraid of public spaces, not are public places dangerous or should public spaces be feared. That's not that clear in the present version of the article and that's why I decided to prepare a new one. So far the info about nations other than Poland is but a sketch. Hopefully some time later someone will drop in and explain the feelings of other societies better than I did.

Also, whether the Allies could do more or not is a matter of personal opinion. And it's a fact that many Poles feel that way. Also, it has nothing to do with Polish nationalism. It's about feelings of a large part of Polish nationals. Get the difference? Halibutt 22:53, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

Also, thanks for polishing your comments at my talk page. They are much more readable and civilized now. Using this tactics you'll find much more people willing to answer your arguments rather than quarrel with you. Cheers! Halibutt 23:02, Jul 7, 2004 (UTC)

As to the VfD - I won't do it for the simple reason that it's not needed. IMHO when the article is ready, the present version could be simply replaced with a redirect.

Also, the name was sort of a compromise with John Kenney since on early stages of development the article was still about actual Allied policies, not about different attitudes towards them. I'm thinking of naming the finished article Western betrayal, since that is how the phenomenon could be translated to English. AAMoF the title should be "Various attitudes towards Western Allies' policies towards Central Europe". However, this name, although descriptive, might be simply too long.

Finally, as to your main question whether the Allies should and could help Poland more in 1939: as you yourself probably know it's not an easy question. Most Poles believe (and public education gives countless arguments to back up this thesis) that the Allies could do more and promised to do more so they should've done more. It's hard to argue against such a logic since apparently the Western Allies knew perfectly well that they could not live up to their promises. Sadly enough, they did not notify Poland of their plans and used it as a cannon fodder. Oversimplifying a bit, the main cause of Polish defeat in 1939 was naivity and belief in Western promises. On the other hand - who would not believe in promises made by the two most powerful, influential and developed countries of the time?

It took me many years of studying various evidence (mostly of military and diplomatical nature, including various documents published only once during the WWII and in small numbers) to finally understand that the matter is much more complex and the Allies' behaviour includes much more than just a simple lack of good will.

Anyway, to make long thing short, the topic can be shortened by a series of short questions:

• Did the Allies promise Poland more than they actually did - Yes
• Did the Allies promise Poland more than they could live up to - Yes
• Could the Allies help Poland with arms and supplies once the war started - No
• Could the Allies help Poland with arms and supplies before the war, just as they promised in various pacts - Yes
• Could the Allies start an offensive against Germany in 1939 - Yes
• Could such an offensive be succesful - I'm not sure
• Did the Allies have the doctrines and officers brilliant enough to carry out such an offensive - No
• Did the Allies have the strategical advantage for such an offensive to succeed, at least to some extent - Yes
• Did the Allies have an army powerful enough to seize the Rheinland and Ruhr by 1940 - Yes, I believe so
• Could Poland be saved in 1939 by one, strong blow towards Berlin - No
• Could Poland limit the losses in 1939 if only the Allies didn't give promises they knew they couldn't live up to - Yes
• Could such an offensive shorten the war and limit the losses significantly - Yes
• Could the Allies support Polish government-in-exile at least the same way they supported the French in 1944 - Yes
• Could the Allies issue pressure on Stalin and save Polish sovereignity during the Teheran Conference and Yalta Conference - Yes
• Once Germany attacked USSR could Poland's eastern border be saved - No
• Could Poland be spared Soviet occupation and loss of Polish-inhabitated lands just outside of the present Polish eastern border if only the Allies tried - Yes
• Could the Allies ensure at the Yalta Conference that a democratic elections are held in Poland after the war - Yes
• Would it mean that the Soviets would not be able to take power in Poland a bit later (as they did in Czechoslovakia) - No

As you see the matter is complex and claiming that the Allies could or could not help Poland in 1939 (or later in the course of war) would be an oversimplification. Fortunately, it is not relevant to the article since, as I already said, it's not about whether the Allies could or should do more. It's about what the people here believe. Halibutt 00:51, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

I replied at this page. Halibutt 04:26, Jul 8, 2004 (UTC)

Hullo. Your addition to functional equation was not appreciated. Please do not add 'profanity' to pages, even if you are not an admirer of their content. And please do not mark such edits as minor. Charles Matthews 08:13, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Given a couple of further edits by you, can I indicate Wikipedia:Civility as a guide to community norms?

Charles Matthews 19:36, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)