Talk:Western culture
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This page was listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion in May, 2004. The result of that discussion was to keep the article. For an archive of the discussion, see Talk:Western culture/Delete.
I am sure there will be many additions. The Roman chapter and especially law needs to be developed. WHEELER 18:26, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This page concentrates heavily on greece. As it happens, western (style) culture appears to be older than greece, and to have been subject to more influences than are listed here so far. At some point this article might need some rewriting. :-)
See among others:
- Possibly Vedic civilization. (Listed here mainly due to Vedic_mathematics )
- Spring and Autumn Period in China.
- Early Muslim philosophy, which can be said to be a follow on from Greek philosophy
Also much about western culture is influenced strongly by, well western philosophy. The most important of these would probably have to be Western philosophy -> Epistemology -> Empiricism -> Philosophy of science . This is a strong driving force. Advances in western-style thought appear to usually have something to do with improvements to the philosophy of science.(see also: Aristoteles, Ijtihad )
For a possible projected future for western culture, see also: Technological singularity
Kim Bruning 12:00, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
"Western Culture is composed of a triad of influences: ancient Greek culture, ancient Roman culture and Christianity." - That's a hell of a sweeping conclusion to present as the first line of an encyclopedia entry. Just discussing the premise would probably be several doctorates-worth of material. Off the top of my head - what about Babylon? Egypt? the Germanic cultures? Islam? Judaism? India? And has nothing of note happened in the past 2000 years? (the Enlightenment? The Reformation? Romanticism? the Industrial Revolution? modern democracy? The nation state?) Starting with a descriptive point would be a good beginning. How about: "'Western Culture' is a term applied loosely to those cultures which are predominately European in origin." But even that's dubious - 'western' is used so loosely to mean 'democratic' or 'industrialised' or 'Christian' or 'rich' or 'non-Islamic' or 'non-Soviet' that the boundaries are messy as hell - is Russian culture 'western'? what about Brazil? And there's the article's emphasis on philosophy and science, rather than the arts, clothing, food - why? It's not an article on 'western philosphy'. The entire article strikes me as wrong-headed and I think the best thing would be to rewrite it from scratch, rather than try and edit it as it stands. Harry R 10:42, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
This is a general article Harry. Babylon and Eygpt influenced the west but through Greece. People of the Western world did not read babylonian or Egyptian texts. They read the Greeks. If you want to write an article of the influences of Eygpt and Babylon on the Greeks go ahead. German culture is influenced by all these confluences of Greek, Roman and Christianity.WHEELER 18:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Harry add setions and spin offs.WHEELER 18:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Two words. Hellenistic syncretism. AndyL 22:08, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Am strongly against pretending that Wetern Culture 'is' Greece, Rome and Christ (important though they are) There are many important developments since then - so much is wrapped up in it. The Land 11:27, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Pick up any book on Western Civilization and you will read the term "Judeo-Christian Culture". Or "Greco-Roman" Culture. This article explains it all. Read any Edith Hamilton? Read the Founding Fathers? All Europeans will say the same thing!WHEELER 17:04, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm European. I wouldn't. Harry R 18:05, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I am a European and one with (for what it's worth) a degree in the social sciences. Greek and Roman influences are important for sure. They aren't everything. Materialism, industrialism and attempts at sexual liberation are key characteristics of the Western world today which weren't really present in ancient Greece or Rome. The influence of Christianity is complex - for most of history Christianity was the Catholic Church but arguably the most important event in Western history was the Reformation; not to mention the links between Protestantism and industrialisation (see Max Weber). Agree strongly with the views of Harry and Kim above. The Land 18:10, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
There is also a lot of 19th century Victorian era Public School (which were themseves modeled on Ancient Greek ideas) stuff in the ideas expressed in the term Western culture in this article; that enlightenment is Greek and Roman (and we have to begrudgingly include Christianity to keep the vicar happy). When Rome falls the whole world is in a dark age (Lets ignore the Eastern Empire and pretend it does not exist), which only ends as we crawl out of the dark ages into the Renaissance. 20th Century archaeology and historical research have been shrinking the Dark Ages and blurring the boundaries of the Renaissance. Most Victorians argued that all democratic ideas/ideals came from Greece. But a pound for a penny that English democratic values have a much stronger root in the way that North German tribes organised themselves. That if no text from Ancient Greece had survived, then via concepts that created the Witan, democracy would have developed, it really had little to do with Ancient Greece.
In the section entitled Spread of Western Culture there is a paragraph which starts "All non-Western indigenous societies which encountered Western culture underwent massive and fundamental changes as a consequence." Well yes if the indigenous societies was early Iron or stone age, but is this true for all of the Muslim World, China and India? India perhaps more than the other two, but it was and is a 2 way street. I'm off to drive my juggernaut back to my bungalow in Blighty, where I will change into my silk pyjamas and have tea in a porcelain cup while I eat my potatoes and do my maths homework without using Roman numerals and smoke nice pipe of tobacco.
The things mentioned in the last paragraph are mostly commodities, but it is a very Victorian idea to say that the flow of ideas were all from the Imperial centre to the far flung reaches of the Empire. It is of course a very convenient theory because it held to justify West European Empires. The Victorians excused their empires by arguing that they were bringing enlightenment to the "poor benighted heathen[s]". (Kipling)
However just as trade flows in both directions, so do ideas. For example in the area of military technology, inventions came from outside Europe which had huge impacts on Western Society and culture. Gunpowder and the stirrup to name but two.
So I think this article would be improved if an acknowledgement was made that that Western Culture is a synthesis of many ideas from many sources and that western global trade acted as a catalyst in disseminating those snthesised ideas with Western Europe as a central cleaning house. This meant the ideas had the larger, faster impact on Western Europe so that is why they are known by the lable "Western culture". Philip Baird Shearer 10:56, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
In the section Spread of Western Culture
"Outside Europe, Western culture made it strongest inroads in North America", North America includes Mexico and a number of other Latin American Countries. I think in the context of this paragraph North America should be replaced with the USA and Canada. But Is the sentence true? I don't think so! What about Australia and New Zealand?
A mention should be made of South Africa in this section.
There is a also a danger that this section is English Language biased. For example is Argentina less influenced by Western culture than some regions of Europe?Philip Baird Shearer 10:56, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Someone added the remarks of Western culture is marked by Imperialism and slavery. Islam is marked by this, China is marked by this and India are all marked by this. This is not encyclopaedic material but comments. Please refrain from commentaries.
Another comment made was that Education was for the privelidged few. Come on, All parents that could afford it paid for it. Horace's Father was a Freed slave and paid for Horace's education. Practically all Athenian children had an education. The Sophists gave freely to all who paid them and Socrates did it for free. WHEELER 16:46, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Most of north american seems to think that they are the main representants of western culture. They arrogantly exclude latin-americans from western civilisation (in fact latin-america is as musch westerner (of european based culture) than US and Canada. Maybe more in the case of Argentina or Uruguay.
"western culture" is not only NORTH EUROPEAN (for america, WASP anglo-saxon to be more precise), but also latin, hellenic, slav and some other cultural groups.
- I agree with this. How can this article ignore latin america (latin = roman!)? Even if Latin America has strong pre-columbus influences, the dominant groups and official languages are European-derived. Otherwise, should the Norse be mentioned as European cultures that were subsumed by "the West"? Also, I think the section on the colonization of the USA shows a slight anti-western bias (relentless, land-hungry). I'm no expert, nor am I familiar with this page, so I'll leave the editing to others.
- AdamRetchless 04:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
POV
Now, this article suffers from a Mediterranean/Classic POV, and I am adding such a label. There is no denying the heavy and important classic and Judeo-Christian heritage in Western culture. BUT, where is the influence of the Celtic, Slavic and Germanic cultures, that the bulk of the European population started out with?
To pick one example we could take the Germanic influence on Western culture. The Germanic Common law was dominant North of the Alps and the Loire during the Middle Ages. Without the institution of Germanic kingship and its tradition Western monarchy and Western history would have taken a completely different route. What about the democratic foundations in institutions such as tings and Witenagemots? The parliamentary systems (houses of parliament and their counterparts in other West European countries) from the Middle ages and onwards are more indebted to them than to Athenian democracy.--Wiglaf 07:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- per this user's comments, it seems like he/she really has a problem with limited geographic scope. Since there's a tag for that, I'm rm'ing the POV tag and replacing with the proper one. Feco 23:16, 27 May 2005 (UTC)