Talk:Week
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This sentence is very incorrect:
The word "week" is translated as "planet period" in Chinese, possibly based on some misunderstanding of the translators when the concept was first introduced to China.
What "misunderstanding" might this have been? The week is, precisely, a planetary calendar. The Greeks, and probably, all other Middle Easterners of early history considered the sun and the moon and the other observable moving bodies in the night sky to be planets which meant "wanderers". The week was a period for all of the observable "wanderers" in the sky before the invention of the telescope. The question is not whether the translators made a mistake, but who the translators were. I have been laboring under the impression that this was Matteo Ricci. However, I can find no evidence of this. He was the translator of many Western scientific works into Chinese and was the earliest to translate many things into Chinese, so he would be the most likely candidate for this translation. Also, this article mentions nothing about 裡拜, the other term for "week" in Chinese.
Update: I have nothing about the transmission of the 星期 (Xing1 Qi2 or "Star Period") into Chinese in either Science and Civilization in China by Joseph Needham or Chinese History: A Manual by Endymion Wilkinson. I have found a passage (http://members.fortunecity.com/wankawo/a1.htm) on a Chinese website that mentions the transmission of the 七曜 (Qi1 Yao4 or "Seven Luminaries") into China. The passage is as follows:
在古代曾以七曜紀日，其法始於古代巴比倫，以七天為一周，順序為日曜、月曜、火曜、水曜、木曜、金曜和土曜，周而復始，亦稱為星期。中國二世紀時曾出現過「七曜曆」的名稱，但它並不一定就包含七曜紀日法。八世紀時，摩尼教徒從中亞康居國將七曜紀日法傳入中國。
Let me try to translate:
The Seven Luminaries were used to count the days at some ancient date. This other method began in ancient Babylon, one of seven days comprising a week, the Sun Luminary, the Moon Luminary, the Fire Luminary (Mars), the Water Luminary (Mercury), the Wood Luminary (Jupiter), the Metal Luminary (Venus), and the Land Luminary (Saturn), respectively, comprised the original system and were called the "星期" (Xing1 Qi2 or "Star Period"). In Second Century China, a method of recording time was invented, called the 七曜曆 (Qi1 Yao4 Li4 or "Seven Luminaries Calendar"), but it did not definitely contain the Seven Luminaries method of counting days. In the Eighth Century, Manichaeism travelled from 康居國 (Kang1 Ju1 Guo2; Cossack Country?) carrying the Seven Luminaries method of counting days and transmitted it into China.
It appears then that this transmission greatly predates any of the Jesuit Missionaries, such as Matteo Ricci, that I mentioned earlier. I will accept this as fact until I am shown evidence to the contrary. I will update the page now.
Wasn't the week originally the period between the moon's phases, of which there are four (new moon, first quarter, full moon, last quarter), thus dividing the month into four parts? This works until you try to square the lunar calendar with days and years, which are solar.
Is the week strictly a Western cultural artifact? Did native Americans have weeks? Or the Chinese?
Week was not a Chinese concept. Although week is now used in all Chinese countries just like the rest of the world. In Chinese literature, the new moon and full moon were often refered to, but no trace of any seven day periods. The lunar calendar follows the phase of the moon. The 15th of each month always have a full moon. The 1st and 15th are often the time to fast or turn to vegatarian diet for most part-time buddhists. To throw in as a food for thought, the word "Week" is translated as "Star Period" in Chinese. The translation hints that week is related to some astronmoical events, or it was based on some misunderstanding of the translators when the concept was first introduced to China.
- actually there is one reference to a period of 7 days in the Chinese culture, but it is not call a week. It is believe that the dead reincarnates after 49 days, on the 7th day after death, the ghost returns home to see their loved ones for the last time before moving on.
"All Chinese countries" is awkward; does this mean China and the cultures it has influenced?
Didn't the Romans once have an eight day week or something like that? Also, mention should be made of introduction of ten-day week in revolutionary France and the Soviet Union. -- SJK
- classical Rome never really had a week - they had the month, with the named days - see Roman calendar. --MichaelTinkler
I find the whole Chinese tangent one the page (not in the talk) as irrelevant. Who said anything about Chinese? "All Chinese" sounds really racist or at least nationalist to me.
The meaning of the word week in Chinese would be a nice thing to retain.
Otherwise various other calendars should be talked about on their own page.
Yes I think, various other curious weeks from African cultures etc. are worht mentioning.
-Paul Hill
Why not put in one of those things that tells how to figure the day of the week given the year, month, and day of the month? --User:Juuitchan
Moved the following from article - Khendon 10:31 Jan 23, 2003 (UTC)
(I am not sure of the conventions for amending what is an obviously excellent article written by a most learned and esteemed contributor. I would like to raise the question of why there are 7 days in the week. The author suggests above that the "The use of the fixed 7-day period was probably a simplification of a part of a lunar month". The correct answer lies in the passage immediately above. There are 7 primary heavenly bodies: the sun, moon and five planets visible to the naked eye. Thus the naming of the days of the week after seven gods, each of whom is associated with one of these bodies.)
Moved the following question by 203.115.13.34 from article to talk - At18 15:09 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)
(How can it be true that China both "adopted the concept of the week only in modern times" and that "[i]n some archaic Chinese references, the days of the week were named after the Sun, the moon, and the five major planets" ?!)
Answer: Chinese astronomers weren't laboring under the impression that the planets were somehow "wandering stars". Neither did Chinese astronomers confuse the sun and the moon with what modern astronmers would call planets.
- The Chinese text quoted above in this talk page, pointed out that the foreign concept of week was passed into China in the 2nd and 8th century. i.e. some scholars in China learned about it and recorded in archaic references. Week was not put in use until the birth of New China in 1911. Hence the reference can be archaic and the use is modern. There is no contradiction.
Truth it is, the Chinese formerly had a 10-day week into which each month is divided by three. This 10-day week worked ever since time immemorial and up to the present day. The 10-day week just had no regular rest day or sabbath like the seven-day week.
However, the seven-day week has been part of Chinese astrology. It certainly arrived in China by the Tang Dynasty at the latest. Much evidence pointed to Buddhist Monks and travellers. The seven-day week was used for astrology, not for practical or civil purposes. It was adopted into the calendar to determine the lucky and unlucky days. Take the example of Su Sung's water clock in 1060. It had the seven-days of the week on its time-keeping table. Moreover, all imperial calendar and rite ministries had the seven-day luminaries as well. Truth is, the Chinese never adopted it for civil purposes because no historical, cultural or even practical incentive ever came up that mandated the use of a week or cycle with rest days.
The Chinese actually adopted the seven-day week in 1911. Then, western and modern influences had become so strong that adoption was the only way to progress the country.
It be interesting to note that the order of the week in terms of elements: Sun, Moon, Fire, Water, Wood, Metal and Earth resemble Chinese orders. Yin and Yang precede the five elements, with Yang being first, as with historical tradition. Then, the five elements proceed in an order from Fire to Wood. Many charts of the order of five Chinese elements exist and some do denote that order in the elements order. Usually water precedes fire, but instances have been found with the same order as modern seven-day week.
- I disagree that the order followed the Chinese elements. The five element is often presented in the order of their control cycle. metal cuts wood, wood penetrates earth, earth dikes water, water extinquishs fire, fire melts metal. That does not match the week order at all. The Chinese names the five visible planets using the name of the five elements. The week names tie to the planets first and then indirectly tie to the elements. The order should be related to the planet order used in western calender/astrology. The Chinese name matches the planet order shown in the "Roman Association" column of the table in the article.Kowloonese 23:44, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Also, the Chinese have had a 28-xiu system long past in which the heaven and its 28 luminaries are divided into quarters of four each. Each are seven and there was primitive time-keeping style of using 28-xiu of seven days per group, four making 28 days and then repeating over. This system preceded the lunar month system and may have led to the seven-day week, considering that the system uses seven-day periods repeating in cycles.
I have a site on this question, and while it can no means be considered 'authoritative', it might have been useful to refer to it instead of reinventing the wheel:
Also, you should look at:
http://huayuqiao.org/articles/huangheqing/hhq16.htm#_ftnref3
Which gives a much better perspective than that in this entry.
Added a link to TheScian Science Wiki page. I was hoping to add content to this page for some Indian languages. But, the table structure that lists days in many languages is too cumbersome and does not scale. I'll wait for a few days and then reorganize it if no one objects. --Selva
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week in asia, native america
was there or was there not a concept of a week in china, japan, india, native america, etc. before the influence of european culture? if there was, did it have 7 days? this is not clear from the article. - Omegatron 21:18, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)
- Several postings in this talk page has pointed out that there was no concept of week in China. Ancient Chinese uses groups of 10 days called xun2 (旬), it is only to identify which part, namely start, middle and end of the month. There was no concept of taking a day off on Sunday until the Western influence. Chinese used the number 7 in some occasions, but the number 7 was often tied to the seven stars in the big dipper, unlike the Roman origin of week which was based on the Sun, Moon and the five visible planets. I am not the expert in this area, but I would strongly support the claim that week was never a Chinese concept. Japanese culture was heavily influenced by Chinese, so I don't think week was a Japanese concept neither. I'll let someone else comment on the other ancient civilizations such as India and America. Kowloonese 01:11, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I added a comment about exactly what you are asking for back on Jan 8, 2002. My edit didn't survive the test of time. Kowloonese 01:18, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
First day of Week in Europe / America
The article states that Sunday is the first day of the Christian/Jewish week. All European calendars I've seen show Monday to the left and Sunday to the right, indicating that Monday is the first day of the week. US-American calendars, on the other hand, start on Sunday. Anyone know the explanation for this? It should be mentioned, I think. --Sveinb 10:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The Europeans have rejected Christianity and along with it the fact of Sunday being the first day of the week? Philip J. Rayment 12:41, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You may be right. But then again, God rested on the seventh day, not the first. That would make no sense. The article on Days of the week explains that continental Europe uses ISO 8601, which has Monday as day one. The current article also links to ISO 8601, so I'll leave it at that. --Sveinb 21:29, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Huh? God rested on the seventh day, which is Saturday, meaning that Sunday is the first day of the week. People that have Monday as the first day of the week are therefore rejecting that Biblical basis. How does that not make sense? Philip J. Rayment 02:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- You may be right. But then again, God rested on the seventh day, not the first. That would make no sense. The article on Days of the week explains that continental Europe uses ISO 8601, which has Monday as day one. The current article also links to ISO 8601, so I'll leave it at that. --Sveinb 21:29, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The first day
What does it exactly mean that some day is the first day of the week? Is it forbidden to count «Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday and Tuesday»?
What does that mean: «Later, after the establishment of Islam, Friday became that religion's day of observance -- however the Islamic week still begins on Sunday and ends on Saturday, just like the Jewish-Christian week.»
Hindu Civilization had the concept of week much earlier
Hindu Civilization had the concept of week much earlier. Ramayana, the oldest known scripture of the Hindus dates back to 3000 BC. There are evidence in this epic scripture about the seven-day a week concept, 12 months/ 365 days a year concept. Babylonian civilization and the rest followed later on.