Talk:Viking
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summary of archived disputes
There is some disagreement as to the definition of "Viking" in English:
- it can be used to refer to a 8th-11th century Scandinavian raider or pirate, exclusively.
- it can be applied to 8th-11th century Scandinavian members of naval expeditions, i.e. both peaceful traders/explorers and warlike raiders/pirates
- it can be used as an adjective, denoting anything connected with Viking Age Scandinavia, i.e. extending to the entire 8th-11h century Scandinavian culture
- some people have been objecting to usage (1) (User:Sjc), because to people familiar with usage (3), it seemed to suggest that all/most Scandinavians were pirates. (see archive 1)
- others have been objecting to usage (3), because they are familiar with usage (1), and understand the adjective 'viking' applied to the Scandinavian culture to imply that all/most Scandinavians were pirates. This is the position reflected on User:Dan Koehl/viking (see archive 2)
Note therefore, that nobody has actually been of the opinion that Scandinavians were mostly pirates at any time, although there has been some disagreement as to the importance of the raids to Scandinavian economy. But because such allegations were perceived, it has been difficult to confine the dispute to the actual definition of the term.
No solution has been found, and the page is still listed on WP:RfC.
The problem has no easy solution. Usage (1), or arguably (2) are undisputed the historical Scandinavian use of the word. The English meaning is intricately connected with the romantic notions that accompanied the word's introduction into the English language. Usage (3) is now undeniably widespread, although recent, and in contradiction to the correct etymological use. The ultimate aim of the article must be to explain these complications. In other articles, the word viking should be used as sparingly as possible, because obviously different people connect different notions with the term. It is advisable to use Viking Age instead whenever possible, because that term seems to be unambiguous (e.g. instead of a viking town say a Viking Age town). dab (ᛏ) 12:19, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Viking-hater Dan is now in charge of this page after spamming the others with his clearly biased views, wonderful.
The word "Viking" can be used to describe the raiders of the time-period, the Scandinavians of the time-period, since most were raidersm, or the traders that traveled extenively throughout Europe.
- have you even read the above summary? this precise question was under prolongued discussion. What you say is just one side of the dispute. dab (ᛏ) 17:10, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Dear anonymous contributor. Please consider the arguments summarized at Wikipedia:Why create an account? --Johan Magnus 17:42, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I was surprised at the etymology you present here:
'The etymology of "viking" is somewhat unclear. One path might be from the Old Norse word vík, meaning "bay", "creek" or "inlet", and the suffix -ing, meaning "coming from" or "belonging to". Thus, viking would be an activity in creeks, or "creeking". A vikingr is a person engaged in such activity. Later on, the term viking became synonymous with "naval expedition, raid", and a vikingr was a member of such expeditions.'
You are of course aware of the fact that the Oslofjord area is called 'Viken' (the bay)? Any person coming from Viken could be termed a Viking. The same goes for many other place-names here. A person from Malvik would be termed a Malviking. A person who is "creeking" (whatever activity that may be) seems like a very unlikely explanation for a person who understands scandinavian. Among historians in Scandinavia one can find the explanation to be at first meaning it a person from Viken. Either the Viken people's activities as pirates OR other scandinavians raiding Viken may have been the origin of the word Viking, in the meaning and usage as in 'going in viking'; i.e. raiding. --SWA 15:27, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
well, we pretty much say so in the etymology section. As you say yourself, a vik is a bay, so that a viking may be anybody from any bay, not necessarily Oslofjord. As for "creeking", the -ing may be misleading. I don't think the idea here is that viking is a verbal noun. Anyway, the suggestion is not my own of course. Apparently, "in viking" meant "on a naval expedition" and not "in a bay dweller". However, I don't know the earliest attestation of the word. In Egils saga,
- Ţat mćlti mín móđir,
- at mér skyldi kaupa
- fley ok fagrar árar,
- fara á brott međ víkingum,
"travel with vikings" obviously already means "travel with pirates". I think that "going in viking" in the sense of "going into creeks [to kill people and take all their stuff]" is the suggestion intended by the "creeking" part, i.e. "let's go creeking" meaning "let's go raiding". Maybe we need to rephrase the "creeking" bit, though. dab (ᛏ) 15:48, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Speking , mlowa nasza sążnista
"{ 4 J Fiorda sine fiolners mine shram skal Dranga jeż povdarz skine pozte'aż tjagna.
5 ligatures quasi mongolian characters
6 Liódin Lcióde bródar bliód, lcjreina lcina kiozte prziódiń szfróda groóda goóda zdżreinir meina bozte
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7 Dannmerkur od girzfa Sweini Skancjiż wwji? ???? ???? Sżceżni Szsocngż ogj Sjaraldi Szoncji (szongi) Słczraldżżżir kongżżicr
8 Armańs'o. Szcżprziodarc
9 na dole XX Sczżicdir
10 steżirńs Skip'ci Szogczlandi|Szocjczlandi
11 szriStni kam ci Pśćlan'ljaSżi tżil Svidprziódar til Wramahś ocjverid lcar med bonżim (next page) ???..??? SceSctżir
12 ... Prażitcjidżir Merdzi/or pa (z)villdżi egnżi czd ljczń Wlżczdżimżer(ż<>i mier) ci SeŻtażia (ta strona sfatygowana#209)~ Scl ??celti; vid sphożi/ćżim' eźcj'a kaz/clrz samcziż|? ; Sżjżiż skallt adołhdrżi/c,
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13 CjeGżjeSzsuj Zi Scallu arżdzirc zcliw żi ?racendeScemi (?głożidh?) BżiSkżipin niź Slri
????? Barnadi wwiZczovś końu/łs/sza zjższć' Bżiskżipniżm (ostatnie i 2".") zovie
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14 SacjaszszaS'żji Lijcozchron Ocj Sjańs SrjĆcjżizirzsń czirs'te ctapitule bo zirciar tejsa socj,u ad'htriarjan'dć ljes'z konci'z ljetid,ljsz^ rciede pssu v tm^ tracrte cjrc'ick'landS erc ps'elop'onsjus lJc'it v tm^sjalt z pszeiżże nalspcjzazcjży żcorcj Ctorinto pelopinsjus
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15 jam Hasrcvandalzżzir ż Polpilszczelandzi
- U can use glagolica to read the originals
- That's excerpts from pages from Iceland. There are pages on web, tens of thousands. I think may be illustrative to this discursus, to look, to see, what deceased have to say. I think this little fragments do not infringement possible copyright, anyway those pages are scanned by government grants and do not have any copyright notices, also authors do not seem to hold copyright they passed away centuries ago.
- Do you agree?
cut from "Sagas"
I cut the following from the "Sagas" section, which I assume is supposed to be about accounts in particular Norse sagas, as opposed to actual "historical sources". dab (ᛏ) 12:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
- Their ruthlessness and courage in battle is well documented by contemporary chroniclers, and they were feared along the western coast of France and in Britain. It is the effectiveness of these tactics that earned them their formidable reputation as raiders and pirates, but the chroniclers paid little attention to other aspects of Viking culture. This is further accentuated by the absence of contemporary primary source documentation from within the Viking communities themselves, and little documentary evidence is available until later, when Christian sources begin to contribute. It is only over time, as historians and archaeologists have begun to challenge the one-sided descriptions of the chroniclers, that a more balanced picture of the Norsemen has begun to become apparent. The most famous "Viking settlement", Jomsborg, is today regarded as legendary by historians; it was probably nothing more than a village of Slavic pirates.