Talk:Troll
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"In J. R. R. Tolkien's world, trolls are very large (around 9 feet tall and 350lbs) humanoids of poor intellect."
- I can't believe I'm writing this :-), but a 9-foot humanoid would be expected to weigh a lot more than 350 lbs (square-cube law) even if not made of "stone". Polar bears weigh something like 1,000 lbs +, if I remember correctly.
- Perhaps they were made of breeze blocks ;-) quercus robur
- Well, I guess that imaginary worlds need not always comply with real-world phenomena (though I have difficult realizng why a figure of 500lbs or 800lbs couldn't have been given instead for greater consistency). However I do not recall anywhere in The Hobbit or LotR that would anyhow describe the Trolls' weights (or indeed any other physical property of these creatures), where does this figure come from, anyway? --Uriyan
It comes from me guessing. :) change it. --TomCerul
Nevermind, what I had written. I checked the facts. Sorry.
This is as irrelevant as it can be but, where in LotR is it mentioned that orcs are corrupted elves? I remember Saruman saying it in the movie, but I do not have recollection of having read that in the book.--AN
- Yes it is definatlely in the book. Don't ask me where, but I clearly remember reading it somewhere in LOTR quercus robur
- Two towers chapter IV "TREEBEARD", about two pages from the end of the chapter.
- "Will you really break the doors of Isengard?" asked Merry.
- "Ho, hm, well, we could, you know! You do not know, perhaps, how strong we are. Maybe you have heard of Trolls? They are mighty strong. But Trolls are only counterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves. We are stronger than Trolls. We are made of the bones of the earth. We can split stone like the roots of trees, only quicker, far quicker, if our minds are roused! If we are not hewn down, or destroyed by fire or blast of sorcery, we could split Isengard into splinters and crack its walls to rubble."
- not that it *really* matters for the article :-) // OlofE 16:09, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
- It isn't in LOTR, but it is clearly stated in The Silmarillion. Since that is the pre-LOTR history of Middle-earth, it applies to LOTR also. However, since J. R. R. Tolkien didn't release Silmarillion while he was living, one could argue that he meant to take this out before it was released. Jketola
In the silmarillion page 50 it states that Orcs were believed to be bred from the demented and warped Elves caught by Morgoth in the first age.
Why "Olog-Hai"? Aren't they "Uruk-Hai"? -- SGBailey 23:16 Jan 9, 2003 (UTC)
- Uruk-Hai are the orcs
How do we know that Tolkien's trolls enjoy eating hobbits when they have caught only one, misidentified it as a "burrahobbit," and let it escape uneaten? And what's special about olog-hai speech--they don't talk like cockneys? --Alex Clark
This article should be moved to Troll (mythology), and the disambiguation moved here. This would follow the policy in Wikipedia:disambiguation, since this mythological usage doesn't seem to be the "primary topic" these days: look at how many articles link to Internet troll). Goatherd 16:27, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Primary topic where? In Internet discourse yes. However, most people in the
- Western world would think of the being Troll and wouldn't probably know the
- meaning Internet Troll. Wiglaf
- Yes, but Wikipedia is presumably used mostly by people familiar with Internet discourse? But it's no big deal. Goatherd 15:52, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with Wiglaf. It should definitely remain here. Ausir 21:09, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
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Absolutes
I have made some changes here. First and foremost, I have changed the "always" in the sentence "They are however always regarded as having poor intellect (especially the males, whereas the females, trollkonor, may be quite cunning), big noses, long arms, and as being hairy and not very beautiful" to an "often", because trolls are simply not that firmly defined so as to motivate an "always". I have read several tales depicting handsome and relatively intelligent trolls. (I also added the words "great strength" here).
To continue on the same theme, I changed the "generally" in "In Scandinavian fairy tales trolls generally turn to stone if exposed to sunlight" to a "sometimes". I, as a swede, has never read a tale where a troll has turned to stone, but a great many stories with trolls being out and about in broad daylight.
--Dnalor 01:10, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Troll: comment
Web troll:
Could someone define troll as used on the web? Is it someone trolling for valid e-mail addresses, or someone trying to get attention, or exactly what?
- See Internet troll. If not defined there, ask *them* ;] --kooo 15:12, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)
John Bauer image
I have to say I don't much like Image:The changeling, John Bauer, 1913.jpg - it's very murky and it's not at all clear what it shows (where's the changeling?). Is it really necessary to include this image? -- ChrisO 17:43, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- LOL, first you add a picture of an ugly Norwegian stone troll, which you have the gall to put on the top, but you botch it so David Gerard has to invene, and then you complain about a famous painting by one of Sweden's most beloved artists. Go see an optician for crying out loud.Wiglaf
- The issue isn't whether or not he's "one of Sweden's most beloved artists". The issue is whether the picture is clear, striking and informative. The first image (of the princess) certainly qualifies but I don't think the second qualifies on any of those grounds. I suppose we'll have to agree to differ... -- ChrisO 21:53, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- It's a good painting, but I shrunk it to 250px and that may have been too small. I've set it to 300px. Possibly we could just take the bottom half as detail and make it 350px wide - David Gerard 22:15, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it's a good painting. ChrisO might consider clicking on Wikipedia images. This leads to enlarged versions which are much easier to discern.Wiglaf
More on images
We have too many images for our own good. In particular, many of them don't fit into the sections they are right next to. The "Changeling" image is already used in the Changeling article, which is a good and exhaustive article, so I don't see any problems in dropping that one, especially since we already have a John Bauer image, well placed in the "literature" section. Instead we should have an image of an actual game troll, something like this (http://www.blizzard.com/wow/images/trolls/characters-trolls.gif) or this one (http://wow.jeuxonline.info/file/aff_img.php?img=http://medias.jeuxonline.info/wow/upload/1645.jpg) which must be considered promotional material and can be used if we note what game it is from (namely World of Warcraft). I don't know about the "Trolls in Trollhättan" and the "Norwegian_troll.jpg". Maybe we can move the Troll doll section away from the Fremont Bridge Troll and add an image of an actual troll doll, something like this (http://www.tvacres.com/images/troll.jpg), but free from copyright. Salleman 04:56, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
Trolls in music
Tell me, David Gerard, why not "Trolls in music" huh ? Imo it's as relevant as "Trolls in games". It just gives one more image of what trolls are. Ukuk 16:43, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Yeah, it probably could do with a one-liner pointing to the main article on troll metal - David Gerard 16:43, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- That's fine :-) - David Gerard 23:47, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Thx guys (: Ukuk 06:28, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
206.241.4.6
206.241.4.6 made some trollish edits to Iraqi resistance and Lake Titicaca. Strangely enough all his/her edits to the troll article seem to be genuine. Except, I can't find the quote "The peculiar in life was what made me wild and mad...dwarf power and untamed wildness...audacious and bizarre fantasy" anywhere on the Internet. Maybe this quote should be removed until a credible cite is given. - pir 09:26, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- I have not made any "trollish edits". 206.241.4.6 is one of many open proxies that I and others use, and the trollish entries in question were made by persons other than myself. I am the person who made the entries to the Trolls in Music section. To answer your question, the Grieg quote is from the liner notes for Naxos 6.110060, GRIEG: Piano Concerto, Symphonic Dances (http://www.naxos.com/mainsite/default.asp?pn=Composers&char=G&ComposerID=432) written by Norwegian conuctor Bjarte Engeset and translated by Susan Askvik. Mr. Engeset doesn't list a citation for this quote, and I haven't been able to find one outside the liner notes. Would it be possible to contact either Naxos, Mr. Engeset, or a scholar of Norwegian studies? Sadly, I suspect that much of Mr. Grieg's personal notes remain in his native tongue.- Thomas Veil
- Turns out the quote and the liner notes are online and linked to the main site above ("About this Recording") on the right side of the page. The quote is at the end of the ninth paragraph. "The peculiar in life was what made me wild and mad...dwarf power and untamed wildness...audacious and bizarre fantasy." (http://www.naxos.com/scripts/newreleases/blurbs_reviews.asp?catNum=5110060&filetype=About%20this%20Recording&language=English) And yes, that's on the internet.-Thomas Veil
- OK, just a weird co-incidence then. Google didn't find the quote, but it exists. - pir 08:26, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Tooth-trolls
It says that Swedish children believe in tooth trolls. This reference should be put under Literature as it comes from Norwegian author Torbjørn Egner's story "Karius og Baktus". I'm a newbie to wikipedia so I don't want to edit the article (and my English isn't that good). This story is well known in the whole of Scandinavia and probably in several other countries too. Amazon reference: <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0961539410/qid=1095081310/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-7873458-4131309?v=glance&s=books>
- You're free to change it into "Scandinavian children" if you wish to, and to add Torbjörn Egner under the litterature part as well. I don't think removing this text from "Scandinavian folklore" is alright, because the tooth trolls are very much part of it today.--Wiglaf 20:09, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I am channging this because we need to clarify that swedish/scandinavian children do not believe in "tooth trolls". This is a pedagogic device to explain why we need to brush our teeth, a way of making bacteria understandabla for children too young to grasp the concept of micro-organisms in scientific terms. The book was converted into a puppet movie that used to be shown for all schoolchildren during their first years in school, but nobody belived that they saw a depiction of actual reality.--itpastorn 10:24, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Removed from article
"Hypotheses about trolls / There is a theory that the trolls are a distant memory of modern man's encounter with Neanderthals. Some also claim that the Neanderthals may well have lived into historical times, and may be remembered as trolls, while others believe that they just refer to neighboring tribes." This strikes me as a theory of utter wackiness, it's not referenced or explained any further, and it's weaselspeak. Not that Wikipedia could not cover wacky theories (indeed it does to a rather unpleasant extent), but our encyclopedic standards apply here just as anywhere else. Kosebamse 21:43, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)