Talk:Trial by ordeal
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Is it me or are the statements in the first paragraph seem a little bit too apologetical to others too? What on earth makes you believe that trial by ordeal lasted longer elsewhere than it lasted in Europe. For one thing I don't know anything that resembles such a practice in middle east. There were executions without trial, torture so on so forth but I never heard of trial by ordeal. Does the author have a problem admitting there may be meaningless and violent things in comperatively recent european history? After all the whole article is about the practice as it is done in europe but the introduction puts the blame on every culture. How do you know if such a thing existed in Hawaii or not for example?
Didn't trial by ordeal survive on the books in England a lot longer than it was actually used? I know trial by combat did. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:16 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- My understanding is that since the traditional ordeals were supervised by the Roman Catholic clergy, and probably got most of their probative value from the practice of auricular confession, that they fell into disuse with the Reformation. Unlike trial by combat, I don't know of any instances where surprised judges learned that it was still called for. I have Pollock and Maitland at my office, and I can check there on Monday. -- IHCOYC 00:34 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Am I correct in saying that trial by combat was only outlawed in the reign of George III (though it had not been practiced for quite some time)? --Daniel C. Boyer 16:47 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- You are. The case of Ashford v. Thornton ruled that it was still part of English law in 1818. Now I suspect that the answer to your question has to do with the Roman Catholic Church's decision not to allow priests to participate in the early thirteenth century. Since I strongly suspect that the involvement of the priests was more than merely passive, and that the priests were finagling the outcomes to make sure that the decision they thought right was confirmed by miracle of God in the ordeal, the ban on their participation may have spelled doom for the procedure. Later "ordeals" seem more investigative tools than trials. -- IHCOYC 18:29 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- According to Blackstone, Henry III abolished trials by ordeal early in his reign, in 1220; see Bl. Commentaries v. IV, p. *418. So while battel continued for some time as a theoretical possibility, ordeal was no longer an option. -- IHCOYC 14:10 14 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Disputed
The ordeal by water paragraph repeats claims ( "dunking of witches") that are the subject of an accuracy dispute in trial by drowning. I have no expertise to help the resolution but I have inserted the dubious marker to flag the need for:
a. A common resolution in both articles
b. Suitable cross links between the two articles
--Cje 19:45, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I seem to not be the only one that connects english "Ordeal" to Late Latin "Ordalium", from Out-Deal "Deal out", anyway, if that's correct, I wonder why that would be Fordalia in Interlingua, and not Ordalia.
The "cursed morsel" - I wonder if this was the source for Eddie Izzard's Cake or Death routine (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Eddie_Izzard)? Ubermonkey 21:32, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Quote: 'a Scandinavian and Anglo-Saxon practice was for the accused to walk nine paces with a red-hot iron bar held in both hands. This is one proposed etymology for the traditional phrase "the whole nine yards."'
The second sentence is literally true - this *is* one proposed etymology - but the chances of it being the true etymology are zero (the phrase is not commonly used in the UK and first appears in the US in the 1960s). This article isn't the place for a discussion of folk etymology; I propose simply deleting that sentence. Amroth 19:12, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)