Talk:Toltec

Unlogged in User:62.178.220.23, why are you changing links from Toltec to Toltecs? If there is a good reason for doing so, please explain, thanks. -- Infrogmation 15:55, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

If you plan to split the article, please mention so at least on the summary of your edits, or even better here in the talk page. Dori | Talk 15:59, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

---

Below from User Talk:Dori:

Hi Dori. I am trying to seperate the article about the mesoamerican culture from Castaneda's concept, which hasn't much to do with it. The article about the culture will be found under Toltecs, the article of Castaneda's concept under Toltec. I am now adjusting the links. -- 62.178.220.23 15:57, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please mention so on the summary then or else it looks like a deletion. Dori | Talk 16:00, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

As "Toltec" is also commonly used for the Pre-Columbian Mesoamerican culture, I don't think this is a good idea. Either both concepts should go in the same article, or if there is some necessary reason, "Toltec" can be made a disambiguation page (though I doubt that's needed). I will duplicate this talk at Talk:Toltec, and suggest that further discussion go on there. -- Infrogmation 16:02, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

What exactly is Castañeda's concept of "Toltec"? Is it something unrelated to the civilization? Wouldn't Toltec (Castañeda) be a better solution? If you already have your proposed Toltec article, please post it at Toltec/temp so we can take a look and help you find the best place for it. –Hjr 16:10, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, I really should have mentioned this before (I didn't think this would arouse so much reaction): I have now made a new article Toltec (Castaneda). -- 62.178.220.23 16:18, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• That looks good to me. -- Infrogmation 16:24, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Good solution! –Hjr 16:41, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

Hi Infrogmation, Thanks for cleaning my mess. I will try to put my ideas more clearly, before writting them :)

I am looking for documentation in enlgish for the Torescano tesis, but so far i have found nothing. Do you think info like this would be useful? http://www.embamex.co.uk/update/sept96/academic.html http://www.embamex.co.uk/update/april97/floresca.html

Altough he tesis has not been fully accepted, if he is corrected, it would require a mayor reevaluation of prehispanic history. But i am nos shure is is correct to includ this.

Nanahuatzin 10:49, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

That the Aztec accounts gathered at the time of the Conquest and the generation after tend to confuse the two earlier Central Mexican empires of Tulan and Teotihuacan has long been known. I think it's been generally accepted for some years that Teotihuacan was known as "Tolan" or "Tollan" before the Post-Classic Toltec Tula. Advances in decyphering Maya heiroglyhps confirmed this I think in the mid 1990s. See the Tollan article; for that matter Tenochtitlan was also sometimes refered to by that title. I don't know that any major rewrite of Pre-Columbian history is necessary. Or am I misunderstanding what the Torescano thesis is? Is he alleging that Teotihuacan was the only Tollan, or that it was active in the Post-Classic? If you can summarize, or link to a version in Spanish I should be able to get the general idea of it (though my Spanish has become quite poor from many years of disuse).

Some Aztec chronicles specifically mention Teotihuacan as being earlier than the Toltec, as is confirmed by archeology, and mention an even earlier great culture "Tamoanchan" that some scholars think refers to the Olmec. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 16:12, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

---

For the time being I moved the below 2 paragraphs here from the main article:

Today the debate has started again, started by the Mexican Historian Enrique Florescano, from the Mexican Academy of History, with some speciallist from the CIT (Center of Teotihuacan Studies). Florescano has claimed for years that Teotihuacan was the first Tollan, his point of view has benn slowlly acepted by mexican historians.

The magnificent frescos of Cacaxtla show fine artestry of the Mesoamerican Post-Classic era.

The first I moved here because I don't really understand what any "debate" is about. The second I don't see the relevence to this article; we certainly could use a good article on Cacaxtla though. -- Infrogmation 17:48, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

---

Basically, his tesis is that Teotihuacan is Tollan, and the original the toltecs. He believes the excavations in teotihuacan will reveal the burial of the real Quetazlcoatl. I will try to make a fair resume of his work, and the opinions of other speciallist. He is about to publish something new. Maybe i will be better to wait a little.

Maybe you will find this interesting: http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2003/abr03/030401/quet-tollan.html

I introduced cacaxtla, since the frescos shows some of the history of the fall of teotihucan, but now i think is irrelevant here, just i was a bit confused on how to structure the info. I will try to get something write about it.

Nanahuatzin 23:14, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)