Talk:Thanksgiving
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Someone cannot bear to have this text included and so keeps deleting it. Now where did that free speech end up?
"However, there are historians who contend that the first official Thanksgiving Day celebrated the massacre, in 1637, of some 700-900 Native American men, women and children during one of their religious ceremonies. The Native Americans were told to go out of the building they were in and were shot down as they came out. Those who remained were burned alive in the building. The following day, the governor declared a Thanksgiving Day, which continued to be celebrated for the next 100 years in honor of the bloody victory and to give God thanks. To these days, Native Americans gather in Plymouth to protest against the way that history has been misconstrued and commemorate the real events of that fateful day" - (Posted by Anon user)
- The masacre you describe is discussed in thr appropriate article, see the Pequot War. As far as I know, no "Historians" make the assertion that it should be associated with Thanksgiving. The first proponent of this (James Loewen) is a sociologist, not a historian. See the discusion further down this talk page. The National Day of Mourning afticle might be used for this kind of claim, but I think Wiki is better off without giving it credibility. Lou I 21:07, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No single word that the pilgrims nearly died without the help of the indians who showed them how to plant corn, you just write that you invitd them to party with you, that's typical american ;)
Uhhh - the first official thanksgiving in English-speaking colonies - Virginia. Sorry, Pilgirms. Oh, and - if you just want to count European colonists, Spanish-speaking thanksgiving services date back a good bit further. --MichaelTinkler
"In the Journals of the House of Burgesses of Virginia is a document of 1619 which tells of the first twelve years of the Jamestown colony. The first settlement had a hundred persons, who had one small ladle of barley per meal. When more people arrived, there was even less food. Many of the people lived in cavelike holes dug into the ground, and in the winter of 1609-1610, they were:"
"" . . . driven through insufferable hunger to eat those things which nature most abhorred, the flesh and excrements of man as well of our own nation as of an Indian, digged by some out of his grave after he had laid buried there days and wholly devoured him; others, envying the better state of body of any whom hunger has not yet so much wasted as their own, lay wait and threatened to kill and eat them; one among them slew his wife as she slept in his bosom, cut her in pieces, salted her and fed upon her till he had clean devoured all parts saving her head . . .""
What the colonists in Virginia were doing with the Indians one year when they didn't give thanks.
(Source: Zinn, Howard. A People's History of the United States. Harper Collins: New York. 1995)
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Poisoned Indians
i've added a bit of information from http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=39844 You can email: Tristan_Ahtone-at-hotmail.com for a copy of sources used to compile this information, or else provide a countersource if you think any of the facts he claims are false so that this can be NPOVed. IMHO, the wikipedia page was rather POV without this info.
Boud 12:41, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- I skimmed the article with the changes and they worried me from a POV, er, standpoint, but when I actually read the article I came away with the impression that the whole thing was good for the Europeans, bad for the Algonquins and Iroquois (and whomever else, I never learned history that far north), and can be reasonably observed as such, depending on which side one is on. --Charles A. L. 16:31, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)
The factoid about poisoned Indians in 1623 was first associated with the Pilgrams in James Loewen's book Lies My Teacher Told Me in 1995. It has propogated over a lot of web pages. Loewen cites a 'colonists letter' as his source, but doen't footnote it. The only actual earlier reference I've found was about a 1623 poisoning that was reported as being a part of the struggle with the Powhatan Indians in MD and VA, and had nothing to do with Pilgrams. Be aware that Loewen is a sociologist and peddler of politically corrtect history, by which I mean that being PC (correct by race, gender, and class diversity) is more important that historic accuracy. I'd like to get this point, and the link to independent media out of Wiki!! After a pause for comments I'll do that. Lou I 16:12, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Good job on checking into this. I was pretty suspicious of this "poisoning" claim too, but didn't know for sure. Also (by comparison), the claim that Indians were given smallpox-infected blankets during the Pontiac War is supported by fairly weak evidence, but is mentioned at least twice on Wikipedia. -- VV 21:48, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- To update: By Email, the creator of the refernce Web article has confirmed that he took it from Loewen and has no other source. I don't know if he believes me yet, but I'm working on him. To restate, I'll pull to reference here and on the Pequot article at the end of the week.. Lou I 13:08, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- Lou, i'm a bit confused about which alleged facts you claim are wrong. Are you only talking about the poisoning in 1623 or are you also talking about the killing of about 500 Pequots in 1637? i've started looking around a bit for the (alleged) poisoning in 1623, but your second comment To update: makes it sound like you also have doubts about the killing of 500 Pequots in 1637.
- At least the latter seems to be referred to fairly often, e.g. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/native_truth/message/8 though this does not claim direct access to primary source material.
- However, regarding the former, you seem to dismiss primary source material, which you say is cited by James Loewen http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/liesmyteachertoldme/liesmyteacher.html , on the basis of your POV that he prioritises the method of selecting facts over facts themselves, and because you say he didn't footnote it. (The method seems to be that by having more variety of sources - both men and women, both "whites" and "native Americans", etc - there is more chance of correction of factual errors, in fact it's something like the wikipedia method.) In any case, a quick look at James' Loewen's pages shows that he at least believes that he is trying to correct major factual errors and omissions regarding US history. Rather than dismissing his claim on the basis of distrust, it would surely be better to contact him directly asking him for more info on the colonists (sic) letter: (jloewen at zoo.uvm.edu). Maybe he could provide a jpg file of a scan of the letter or of a facsimile copy (yes, yes, facsimile copies existed before faxes ;). i put the sic in there because we don't if it's a letter by one or many colonists. Boud 21:35, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)
IMHO Lou I has mostly whitewashed the article of any hint regarding alternative points of view on how the Thanksgiving tradition arose in the US (apart from one sentence regarding protests by native Americans), and LouI's detailed questions above seem to just have been a red herring (a distraction), Anyway, i'm not going to struggle on this - if USA people want to hold politically correct viewpoints of history and simply remove the dirty reality, that's your choice...
Loewen did finally reply to me, giving lack of time (240 emails to reply to) as a reason for not being able to participate in the wikipedia (he probably doesn't (yet) understand it's relevance). Here's the relevant part of his reply regarding the source for the colonist's letter regarding the 1623 massacre:
- I cite J. Letich Wright, Jr., THE ONLY LAND THEY KNEW, p. 78. I don't own the book, am way behind writing my new book, and have 240 emails to answer, so I cannot check Wright to ensure I cited him right and HE has a good source. I hope he does.
So anyone interested in getting to source should look for this book. Or maybe try to find some libraries with source material. Boud 19:01, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- The full citation referenced by Loewen is for the following book:
- J. Leitch Wright Jr.; "The Only Land They Knew: The Tragic Story of the American Indians in the Old South"; 1985, New York, The Free Press, ISBN 0029346908.
- Wright was a history professor at Florida State University. The reference is to a poisoning in the Powhatan War that happened on the banks of the Patomac River. Thats why I concluded it was Maryland or Virginia. Louwen liked the date so he linked it incorrectly to the Pilgrims. Lou I 20:08, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Summary of Actions
User:LouI contacted Tristan Ahtone (the author of the cited web page), and he cites no other source than Loewen's book, but he should be commended for a civil reply. User:Boud cotact Loewen by e-mail and has so far had no reply. The Pequot fortified vilage wiped out in 1637 wasn't connected with Thanksgiving until activists and protestors did so in the 1970's. But it DID happen. Refer to the Pequot War (in progress} and related articles such as Pequot. Pending any reply from Dr. Loewen, I'm removing the poisoning remark from this article.
I will also create an article on the National Day of Mourning, then reduce that section of this article to a sentence with a link in the U.S. section. Lou I 05:11, 24 Dec 2003 (UTC)
- I wrote the article on the National Day of Mourning. I've also finished an article on the Pequot War, which includes some discussion of these claims. I dont think we should refernce Loewen by name in an article, unless merited by anything he posts here or mentions in an answer to Boud's e-mail. Lou I 19:04, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Turkey Day?
Why do people refer to Thanksgiving as 'Turkey Day'? That is like calling Christmas 'gift day', 'santa day', etc. Holiday are (and should be) named by what they are celebrating, not how they are celebrated. Noldoaran 20:48, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)
Good question, one I don't have an answer for. It's just a joke thing. RickK 21:22, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
It's referred to as "Turkey Day" in much of the US because of the association with eating turkey for dinner on that date. Tradition claims that the first Thanksgiving meal was a turkey and it continues from there. "T Day" is also used by some in the US, and in NYC because of the Macy's parade, some even call it "Macy's Day." Those last two were in the main article before, but I guess aren't common enough to stick. Maybe vegetarians call it "Tofu Day"? --zandperl 03:41, 28 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Maybe they call it Tofurkey(my name for tufu made to look like turkey) day ;-) Noldoaran 22:00, Nov 28, 2003 (UTC)
- Or Turducken day. Turkey stuffed with duck stuffed with chicken. I've never had it, but I've heard it's good. :) RickK 06:54, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)
- Mmm, duck. But I digress. I'm a lifelong native New Yorker, and I have never heard "Macy Day" except in the immediate context of the parade, and rarely then. Maybe I have a small circle, but it doesn't ring quite true.
- Everyone knows the next day, when you go shopping, is Macy Day. --Charles A. L. 16:25, Dec 1, 2003 (UTC)
Perhaps "Macy's Day" was peculiar to my circle of friends while I grew up in NYC. However, I find that when I use the term, whether in NY or elsewhere in the North East, the fame of the parade is great enough that others know I mean Thanksgiving. --zandperl 04:50, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Maybe it derives from the "Macy's Day Parade", which is a corruption of "Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade". RickK 22:22, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
Presidential pardons
Why no mention of the traditional "Presidential pardon" of one lucky turkey in the US each year?
Please feel free to edit the article to include this information. RickK 22:21, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
Category:Religious festivals
Is Thanksgiving really a religious holiday? Gamaliel 15:51, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Very much so. Probably the most religious of US holidays, even more so than Christmas. RickK 23:11, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC)
I don't think it is as clearly true as RickK makes out. The origins and stated purpose of the holiday as outlined in the article do involve a religious expression of gratitude. However, the formal holiday itself was not originated by any organized church or religious movement, to my knowledge, but rather by the U.S. government at both a state and federal level. Contrast Thanksgiving with Christmas, Easter, Ramadan, or Hanukah, for example. The question becomes murkier when we consider that Thanksgiving, even more so than Christmas, has become less affiliated with religious expression over time, and arguably closer tied to family and community rather than strictly to religion. In all, my vote would be no, it is not a religious holiday, in that its origins are governmental and societal, rather than religious. I would cite the relative limitation of this holiday to North America as a point, since if it were truly a religious holiday, it would be far more likely to be celebrated in this form elsewhere globally where similar religious practices hold sway. Secondly, I would cite the mythology that has grown up around the holiday, especially in the U.S. - mythology not originating from organized religion or religious texts, but rather from societal, economic, and nationalistic sources. (Wow. I think I went a little overboard. But this represents my first post in Wikipedia anywhere, so forgive me.) Alavery7 16:17, 04 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- So by your reasoning, El Dia de Los Muertos couldn't be a religious holidy because it's only celebrated in Mexico. RickK 00:20, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)
- No, the regional limitation was but one point in my reasoning. If the 'Day of the Dead' differs from Thanksgiving in one or more of the other points, I would say that carries weight. But I don't know much about that holiday, and that would probably be a discussion for that holiday's talk page, I would imagine. Alavery7 10:09, 05 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Interesting...I'm not sure where RickK is coming from on this one though. The only religious element I can ever remember from Thanksgiving (in my life I have celebrated it with four or five different host groups, depending on how you count) is a prayer before the meal. In all cases, the host group were active (i.e. regular church-going) Christians. I'm not sure what this is like in other regions, but I think I'm safe in saying that that holds for most of the American Southwest. Thanksgiving, in my experience, is primarily in the spirit of early America; public schools discuss Native Americans, pilgrims, and vegetables (the bountiful harvest idea), and a standard activity is for young children to trace their hands onto colored construction paper to make "turkey" pictures.
The comparison with Christmas strikes me as pretty strange. Christmas is thoroughly religious in connotations, with special (Christian) church services, events, songs based on Bible passages, and decorations (nativity scenes, candles with particular religious meanings, ornaments and mantelpieces bearing Christian sayings). On Advent Sundays (the three Sundays preceding Christmas), Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day, there are worship services in Protestant churches with fixed formats. Finally, Christian families tend to actively discuss religious themes, read to each other from the Bible, and focus on the "goodwill to all" and "peace on earth" phrases. None of this applies to Thanksgiving.
Easter is an even stranger thing to compare with Thanksgiving. Easter is also marked by special religious ceremonies, including the somber "maundy Thursday" (sp?) or "ash Wednesday" services, and jubilant celebrations on Easter Sunday ("CHRIST HAS RISEN! "HE IS RISEN INDEED!"). The easter egg, chocolate, and rabbit motifs aren't relevant to the religious aspect and are probably pagan in origin (like some aspects of the secular Christmas holiday). I apologize if my knowledge of Christianity seems a little naive, but I was brought up in mainstream Lutheranism and I feel most of what I'm saying goes for a lot of younger Americans brought up in Christian families...
I'll sum this up with a little table...
| Element | Christmas | Easter | Thanksgiving |
| Religious Songs | Joy to the World, Angels We Have Heard on High, etc | Christ the Lord is Risen Today, Lift High the Cross | ? |
| Services | Tennebrae(sp? candlelight only, gradually snuffed), Advent candles, "Midnight Mass" (Catholic) | Ash Wednesday, Thursday, Easter Sunday (major) | ? | Foods | Turkey, ham, candy, oranges, cakes/puddings | Some large family meal, chocolates, "easter eggs" | Insanely large family meal, turkey yams, pumpkin pies, cranberry jelly |
| Bible | Story of Three Wise Men, Gospels, "Peace on earth, good will toward men", etc | "On the third day He rose again", Gospels, etc | None I can think of, but theoretically anything referring to "the Lord's bounty" |
I mention foods in the table since the significance of Easter and Christmas food items is grounded in syncretic (pagan?) ideas (of Spring and Yule, respectively) whereas the focus at Thanksgiving is really only on food, and possibly somewhat on the early American colonists. While many people reiterate the idea of "giving thanks" for all that we have while at the Thanksgiving table, and Christians mostly attribute this to the Lord's gifts, it's not necessarily religious in nature.
In sum, Christmas and Easter are official and major Christian holidays and have extensive Biblical support in this, whereas Thanksgiving has little explicit support and is not really in the Christian calendar. Additionally, many less-active Christians go to church only on Easter Sunday and/or Christmas. I've never heard of anyone going to Church specifically for Thanksgiving, whether it's on a Sunday or not.
If this doesn't convince you, let's run an informal poll.
Jeeves 05:04, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Christmas reference
The article says that Christmas is more family oriented in Canada than the US. First of all, should this information be here in this context, and second of all, is it even true? Christmas seems to be pretty heavy on family togetherness in the States, if you ask me. --Cvaneg 23:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Ancient forerunners, etc., of Thanksgiving celebration
Someone might want to do a little bit of research and then add a note, about the ancient Greek nine-day harvest festival of Demeter; the Roman "cereal" harvest festival of Ceres; Anglo-Saxon Lammas and Harvest Home celebrations; the Hebrew sukkoth; Scottish kirn; etc.
It might also be worthwhile to mention (briefly) thanks-giving celebrations around the world. For example, in certain African countries, wonderful traditional harvest festivals (for example, the yam festival) are celebrated essentially for the purpose of giving thanks and thus correspond to our Thanksgiving Day (even if they are not linked by a direct historical tradition).
I believe the Protestant Episcopal Church in America includes Thanksgiving on its liturgical calendar (the same religious calendar that observes Advent, Christmas, Epiphany, Lent, Easter, etc.).
It might also be a good idea to link to an article (I'm not sure whether such an article yet exists) on the increasing commercialization of culture that has marked recent decades and is so vividly illustrated by Thanksgiving (among other holidays). Because we find ourselves in the middle of intense global commercial bombardment, we probably don't have the best perspective to make neutral observations on the supplanting of traditional culture with corporate commercialism, nevertheless, this is an extremely important phenomenon worthy of study, analysis, and reflection. Interestingly, resistance to global corporate commercialism comes from divergent (and even apparently diametically "opposite") sectors and is variously expressed as anti-American sentiment (for example, by Islamic fundamentalists); or as a defense of "Christian values" against "liberal media"; or as a human rights movement against capitalist exploitation; or as pro-democracy community-based economics versus the dominant commercialized messages of the "corporate capitalist media."
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Anyone feel like incorporating this?:
The true story of Thanksgiving
The true story of Thanksgiving
By Richard B. Williams Nov. 1, 2000
One day in 1605, a young Patuxet Indian boy named Tisquantum and his dog were out hunting Owhen they spotted a large English merchant ship off the coast of Plymouth, Mass. Tisquantum, who later became known as Squanto, had no idea that life as he knew it was about to change forever.
His role in helping the Pilgrims to survive the harsh New England winter and celebrate the "first" Thanksgiving has been much storied as a legend of happy endings, with the English and the Indians coming together at the same table in racial harmony. Few people, however, know the story of Squanto's sad life and the demise of his tribe as a result of its generosity. Each year, as the nation sits down to a meal that is celebrated by all cultures and races - the day we know as Thanksgiving - the story of Squanto and the fate of the Patuxet tribe is a footnote in history that deserves re-examination.
The day that Capt. George Weymouth anchored off the coast of Massachusetts, he and his sailors captured Squanto and four other tribesmen and took them back to England as slaves because Weymouth thought his financial backers "might like to see" some Indians. Squanto was taken to live with Sir Ferdinando Gorges, owner of the Plymouth Company. Gorges quickly saw Squanto's value to his company's exploits in the new world and taught his young charge to speak English so that his captains could negotiate trade deals with the Indians.
In 1614, Squanto was brought back to America to act as a guide and interpreter to assist in the mapping of the New England coast, but was kidnapped along with 27 other Indians and taken to Malaga, Spain, to be sold as slaves for about $25 a piece. When local priests learned of the fate of the Indians, they took them from the slave traders, Christianized them and eventually sent them back to America in 1618.
But his return home was short-lived. Squanto was recognized by one of Gorges' captains, was captured a third time and sent back to England as Gorges' slave. He was later sent back to New England with Thomas Dermer to finish mapping the coast, after which he was promised his freedom. In 1619, however, upon returning to his homeland, Squanto learned that his entire tribe had been wiped out by smallpox contracted from the Europeans two years before. He was the last surviving member of his tribe.
In November 1620, the Pilgrims made their now-famous voyage to the coast of Plymouth, which had previously been the center of Patuxet culture. The next year, on March 22, 1621, Squanto was sent to negotiate a peace treaty between the Wampanoag Confederation of tribes and the Pilgrims. We also know that Squanto's skills as a fisherman and farmer were crucial to the survival of the Pilgrims that first year - contributions which changed history.
But in November 1622, Squanto himself would also succumb to smallpox during a trading expedition to the Massachusetts Indians. The Patuxet, like so many other tribes, had become extinct. The lesson of Squanto and the Pilgrims is not one of bitter remembrance, but rather a celebration of the generosity of Indian people. Under the guidance of Squanto, the Pilgrims followed a longstanding Indian tradition of offering thanks. Although we celebrate Thanksgiving as an "American" holiday, its beginnings are Native to the core.
Feasts of gratitude and giving thanks have been a part of Indian culture for thousands of years. In Lakota culture, it's called a Wopila; in Navajo, it's Hozhoni; in Cherokee, it's Selu i-tse-i; and in Ho Chunk it's Wicawas warocu sto waroc. Each tribe, each Indian nation, has its own form of Thanksgiving. But for Indian culture, Thanksgiving doesn't end when the dishes are put away. It is something we celebrate all year long - at the birth of a baby, a safe journey, a new home.
So when you sit down to Thanksgiving dinner this year, remember Squanto and the great sacrifices made by him and his tribe to a people they didn't know. That is the legacy of the Indian people of New England - one that we can all enjoy.
Richard B. Williams (Lakota) is the executive director of the American Indian College Fund, a historian, educator and the founder of the Upward Bound Program at the University of Colorado at Boulder Pedant 00:31, 2004 Nov 25 (UTC)
- Some of the material you report IS included in the article for Squanto, which coiuld still stand improvement. Perhaps the "traditional" story of the Pilgrim Thanksgiving deserves a more straitforward deescription here, with a link to Squanto. I'll put it on my to do list, and check back in a few months, in the interim feel free to jump in. :-) Lou I 21:38, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)