Talk:Synarchism

Herschelkrustofsky - Please describe exactly how my copyedit was "confusing" and "misrepresented" the concept. While the present text is marginally clearer than the first version of the page it appears to be no less confusing as "Synarchism" appears to be essentially a euphemism for "unamerican". --Bk0 21:07, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It's not -- that's why I said that your edit misrepresented the concept. Also, "Synarchism" is not the name of a theory, that says that "left" and "right" fascism are two branches of the same critter; "synarchism" is the name of the critter. The critter is a reaction by the old feudalist structures to the emergence of constitutional republics, which you might want to call "Americanism", but I think that that would be imprecise, especially the way America behaves nowadays. I don't rule out the possibility that my present edit can be improved -- I'll see if I can think of a way to make it clearer myself.--Herschelkrustofsky 00:08, 6 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have edited this page to put it in it's proper context. The fact that LaRouch publications was the soucre of the article with all its misconceptions and distortions is not a surprise, however. Fact remains, that LaRouche & associates are largely the only ones using this terme - it is not used in mainstream, or for that matter, fringe politics. - Peter Perlsø 20:49, 2004 Jun 13 (UTC)

You can't have it both ways -- if it were true that only LaRouche uses the term, then you would be obliged to define it the way he does. As it stands, this version of the article is just a USENET-style rant, and I have returned it to its earlier, relatively informative version.--Herschelkrustofsky 21:27, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I made some modifications which I hope will be useful.--Herschelkrustofsky 21:51, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The wikipedia is not a soap box for various political extremists, and Larouche et al. does not have any rights to present their preferred definitions for made up political terminology. As such, it should not be presented here, at least not without setting them in the proper context. But by all means, add info if you can find a source that *verifiably* do not lead back to LaRouche propaganda. - Peter Perlsø 22:29, 2004 Jun 13 (UTC)

Your re-write provides no source for an alternate definition; it only suggests that the expression "synarchism" is an invalid term, making your article not especially useful for wikipedia users. You also make assertions that are false and propagandistic: for example, that LaRouche claims that the term "synarchism" "...encompasses George W. Bush." LaRouche has never suggested that George W. Bush is a synarchist. I do agree that wikipedia ought not to be a soap box for extremists, and consequently I am restoring my previous re-write, finding yours to be an enraged venting of your own personal point of view, and not useful to the reader. Your assertion alone, that LaRouche "apparently invented the term", demonstrates that you have done no research whatsoever, and are simply looking for an opportunity to rant against LaRouche. Perhaps wikipedia has a mechanism for refereeing such disputes as this one -- if so, I would welcome it.--Herschelkrustofsky 23:09, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm pointing out in my edit that synarchism is a fabricated term made or blown out of proportion to whatever meaning it may have in spanish circles by L. LaRouche, and you are actively working to maintain this nonsense. As to the propagandism, I'll leave the verdict on that to the moderators. I for one don't have a vested interest in propagating claims that put LL in an undeserved rosy light. The rest of your personal attacks deserve no comment. - Peter Perlsø 00:34, 2004 Jun 14 (UTC)

This seems to be "third position" politics (not to be confused with the third way). A synthesis of the far left and the far right. Groups I have come across include national anarchists and national bolsheviks. They are sometimes known as Strasserites. Secretlondon 22:49, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC) : It's a variety of far right politics and does deserve an article - although I for one have never heard this term used. Secretlondon 22:53, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sorry - completely misunderstood this - I thought this was a description of LaRouche himself. The concept seems to be tied up in United States national mythology - the myth of a free nation against the world. I've not heard the term used but then I'm in Europe. Right/Left synthesis is an interesting subject to study - but this just seems to be yet another conspiracy theory. Secretlondon 23:08, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The term means "against anarchy" and is an umbrella term for various types of authoritarianism -- synarchists equate republican forms of government with "anarchy." I think that if you poke around, you can probably find interesting examples of leftists and rightists collaborating -- or doing a "Mutt and Jeff" routine like the Jacobins and the Bonapartists. --Herschelkrustofsky 01:52, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Adam's "Version" is not just POV -- it is vandalism. It provides no meaningful or useful material on Synarchism, but instead provides a bunch of venom against LaRouche. This should be settled at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Lyndon_LaRouche/Evidence, not on the Synarchism page. --Herschelkrustofsky 00:16, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If your assertion that "synarchism" is just a neutral political idea is true then there is no reason to tie this article in with the LaRouche edit war. If, on the other hand, this page is just a propaganda article for the LaRouche crowd then, well, you probably should refrain from editing or at least allow it to be presented in as NPOV a way as possible. --Bk0 00:26, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Bk0, does Adam's version strike you as an NPOV presentation? --Herschelkrustofsky 05:03, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, that's why I reverted to VeryVerily's version which much improved Adam's inflammatory wording. I think the VV version should be the starting point towards getting this page unprotected. --Bk0 17:47, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, Bk0, are you still under the impression that "'Synarchism' appears to be essentially a euphemism for 'unamerican'"? There is some ambiguity in that assertion -- because, for one thing, the present policies of the Bush Administration, including the Preventive War doctrine and the disregard for the Geneva accords, should certainly be considered "unamerican" by any honorable standard. There was a clear and intelligible philosophy that accompanied the American Revolution, and it is more or less antithetical to that of the latter-day neoconservatives.--Herschelkrustofsky 00:12, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The word has no significant current usage except in LaRouche propaganda, and this must be stated. It may well have an earlier history, and this could be added by someone familiar with it. My article may well be deficient, but my intent is to write a NPOV encyclopaedia article, whereas Krusty's intent here as everywhere is to contaminate Wikipedia with LaRouche propaganda. Adam 11:00, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I second Adam's opinion. Scrutinizing Herschelk..'s global edit history reveals that H. is engaged in numerous edits which silently removes criticism of Lyndon Larouche and replaces it with positive commentary instead. That was my gut feeling when this thing started, and now it seems to have been true all along. I'll repeat my initial criticism - Wikipedia is not a billboard for political propaganda. Larouche has enough propaganda sites on the net (as seen on the wiki article on his, which is almost plastered with links to his owns sites). Wikipedia is not, and should not be one of them. - Peter Perlsø 21:02, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

Adam's intent is to write another bogus vehicle for injecting false and irrelevant invective, slandering LaRouche as a fascist, anti-Semite, and homophobe, none of which charges are true. You see my point, Bk0? --Herschelkrustofsky 14:45, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Don't try to smear Adam for allegedly having an agenda here, when it appears you're the one with skeletons in the closet, H. - Peter Perlsø 21:08, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

Clearly you both have a POV on this. I do too. Your original version is deficient by not mentioning LaRouche at all (and making it seem as if this is a generic apolitical term). Adam's version is deficient in the opposite way, by stating a laundry list of anti-LaRouche charges. Neutral ground needs to be found. --Bk0 13:35, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That may be a bit difficult, since all indications about the subject seem to indicate that the term "synarchism" has had no meaning in historical politics whatsoever until LLR invented it and started applying it to anything he opposes. - Peter Perlsø 21:08, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

LaRouche inventing the term is not, in and of itself, a negative thing. Every term has to be coined by someone. I see no problem with clearly stating in the article that the primary users of the word are LaRouche and his followers, however I see no need to fill in this article with lots of anti-LaRouche charges. Note that I'm not saying I support or agree with his position or those of his supporters in any way (or any alleged anti-semitism, etc). --Bk0 00:10, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Have I said that LLR inventing the word is a negative thing? No. I'm objecting to the fact that it is incorrectly being claimed to have a history beyond the last 50 years, plus the fact that it is not being made clear that it is indeed a Larouche invention. Both of these points should be nailed down with 7 inch nails. - Peter Perlsø 21:45, 2004 Jul 22 (UTC)

We agree that a) "Synarchism" didn't exist before LaRouche, et al invented it, and b) this needs to be stated very clearly (preferably in the first paragraph) in this entry. The VeryVerily revision which is the current protected version accomplishes this I think. We could however reduce or remove the "conspiracy theory" charge, perhaps moving it to the end of the entry. --Bk0 23:42, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Since Krusty seems to have given up arguing in defence of the LaRouche version of this article, perhaps it can now be unprotected so that it can be improved in the ways suggested. Also, are we certain that the word was actually coined by LaRouche? Adam 03:00, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Greek lesson for Krusty

The derivation of "synarchy" is the Greek prefix syn meaning "with" or "together", as is used in many English words such as synthesis, symbiosis etc, and the verb "arkhein," to rule, as is used in words like monarchy, hierarchy etc. It thus means "ruling together". The word "anarchy" comes from arkhein with the prefix an meaning "no" or "not", thus a state where no-one rules. The Greek prefix for "against" is usually anti. A word meaning "Against anarchy" would thus be antianarkhia or in English antianarchy. Adam 11:00, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Good explanation. Should be kept in the parent entry. - Peter Perlsø 21:08, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

I am happy to give Krusty more Greek lessons any time he likes. I notice he persistently uses "sophistry" incorrectly, as though it were synonymous with "propaganda." In fact it means "shallow or misleading philosophical teaching." Adam 04:21, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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This document which Herschelkrustofsky has added looks like a fabrication to me. Who were these Mexican and French "synarchists"? Has anyone got a non-LaRouche reference to their existence? I have read quite a lot of French wartime history and have never seen a reference to them. I don't claim any expertise in Mexican history, but even if there was a group calling themselves synarquistas in wartime Mexico that doesn't validate any of the LaRouche conspiracy theories. Adam 06:59, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Later: There was a group called the Sinarquistas in 1930s Mexico. It was a right wing group formed in Guanajuato in 1937, with the states purpose of fighting Communism (which probably meant the Cardenas government) and reinvigorate the Catholic Church. There is a drawing by the left-wing artist Diego Rivera called "Los Synarquistas" showing them as masked terrorists. There are a number of references to them on the internet, most but not all at LaRouche websites. I'm not sure what this proves.

Occult Definition

I believe there may be an alternative version. In Umberto Eco's occultist novel Foucault's Pendulum he makes reference to a "synarchy" as being some sort of mystical utopia. Is this usage common outside of this book, is this definition the same as the one given here, or is it an invention of the author? --Axon 13:07, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This has turned up before -- at one time there was an external link in the article to some guy named Joseph Caldwell (http://www.foundation.bw/OnSynarchy.htm), who carries on in quasi-mystical way about the "synarchy," attributing the authorship of the term to Saint-Yves d’Alveydre, who was a 19th Century occultist. I had difficulty making any sense of it. In the case of Umberto Eco, though, we are dealing with a thoroughly political animal; as I recall, he had some connection to Italy's Red Brigades back in the 80s, which would put him in the left-wing zone of synarchism. --Herschelkrustofsky 14:44, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There seems to be another nuance to this -- the term synarchy (which is presently redirected to synarchism) appears to be used exclusively by fans of the occult, whereas synarchism is used in a political context. We might want to set up a disambiguation page. --Herschelkrustofsky 15:42, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Earlist use?

"The earliest use of the word synarchy comes from the writings of Alexandre Saint-Yves d'Alveydre (1842-1909), who used the term in his book L'Archéomètre to describe..."

Since I can obtain a definition of this word from the American Dictionary of the English Language by Noah Webster, published in 1828, it seems to me the statement above is not accurate.

From Webster:

SYN'ARCHY, n. Gr. Joint rule or sovereignty. Stackhouse.

It was reported as earliest by two secondary sources. That doesn't mean it's true - it's a flaky word - but then you can edit it, give a reference since you've got an early Webster and I don't, and explain what it meant in Webster's era. It hasn't been used in that sense in English in recent years, so it could be modified to say "the earliest use of the word with its modern meaning". --Diderot

Thanks, Did. kblais