Talk:Statue of Liberty

I have uploaded several photos that I shot to Wikimedia on a page called Statue of Liberty. I will leave it to others to decide whether and how to use them here. Tysto 08:35, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

Changed my mind and added my pic of Liberty against Manhattan in place of the existing one, which was low-res and pre-9/11. I also rewrote the section called "Closure" to be slightly more accurate and called it "Concern for Security." --Tysto 01:26, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Climbing to the torch

I could only find one site that says that visitors can climb to the balcony of the torch (capacity 11 people). Is that true? AxelBoldt 23:54, 8 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I believe it was once true. Due to a combination of protest demonstrations and/or concerns about the safety of the internal stairways, access to many parts of the interior statue became increasingly restricted during, I dunno, the seventies and eighties. Then it was closed down for an extended period of time while they did extensive refurbishing and rebuilding... and then after 9/11 all access has been restricted. Dpbsmith 16:10, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I took out the "One can also climb up to the balcony of the torch." line. That was true a very long time ago, but hasn't been for nearly a century. JerseyDevil 05:00 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)

Actually, it would be very interesting to have a section on what areas of the statue were accessible when. Do you know the year when the balcony became inaccessible? And why? I'd love to a see a sentence to the effect that "from thus-and-such-year to thus-and-such year visitors could climb to the balcony of the torch (capacity 11 people)." Dpbsmith 22:33, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm... Google, click click... several places, including the fairly respectable-looking americanparknetwork.com (http://www.americanparknetwork.com/parkinfo/content.asp?catid=85&contenttypeid=35) (all of which are phrased identically and hence are likely copied from a single common source) say:

"The 30-foot arm of Liberty traveled to Philadelphia in 1876 as well. For 50 cents, a visitor could climb a steel ladder to the balcony around the torch. A good deal of enthusiasm was generated for the project, since Liberty would be the first statue one could climb inside."

Maybe that was the only time/place at which the public could get to the torch balcony? Dpbsmith 22:33, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually people were able to go up into it after it was built. But the arm had become too weak and there were far too many visitors. Now no one is allowed up there because it does not meet code. It's only a thin bar of copper that seperates you from a 300+ foot drop. I have been to the Statue since it "reopened" - I use that in quotes because you are no longer able to go up into the Statue itself. --JerseyDevil 09:04, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The National Park Service site (http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/11/hh11n.htm) says only that the torch has been "closed to the public for many years." I paraphrased its information to make clear that the closing of the torch was unrelated to the post-9/11 security issues. JamesMLane 11:56, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Image:Liberty3869.jpg is interesting, but it is not what one might expect to see. So the article should make mention of the image, its artist, its origins, its purpose, etc. Kingturtle 00:40 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

aw gee, i wasn't suggesting changing the image...just explaining it. Kingturtle 01:02 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Location of the Lazarus poem

I think that it's especially important to give a source when you are changing information that you think is erroneous that someone else has included.

A previous edit said that the Lazarus poem is engraved on the pedestal. Many people think this. I used to think so myself. Which is odd, because I've visited the statue. Perhaps it's because of editorial cartoons, perhaps because of Shelley's Ozymandias ("And on the pedestal these words appear?").

I was pretty sure this was wrong, but in correcting it I wanted to be sure that I was right.

As to where's the plaque, I found this trickier to determine than I expected. So, when I got the right answer, I thought it was important to cite my sources.

I'm going to tell this backwards, with the answer first.

http://www.nps.gov/stli/plaque/index.html is clear enough, and the main site, http://www.nps.gov/stli/prod02.htm is dated Jan 7th, 2004. The statement there was confirmed by the Park Service by email in response to a query I sent them.

Well, why was there any question? Two reasons.

One thing baffled me was this story, which is only in Google's cache at the moment. If this URL doesn't work, try a Google search on emma lazarus battery park (http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:1Yshxb2ydpsJ:www.newyorkled.com/Past_Event_Emma_Lazarus_Commemorative.htm+emma+lazarus+battery+park&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

It's a news item dated May 12th, 2002 that states "Originally inscribed on a bronze plaque placed on the interior wall of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty monument in 1903, this plaque now sits within our very own Battery Park."

Since the museum and statue interior are currently closed to the public, I thought it was very possible that it had been moved to a location where people could see it. The plaque in Battery Park appears, however, to be a different plaque.

Meanwhile: the Wikipedia article had previously contained an external reference that was shown simply like this:

The best detailed account, in the official Historical Site handbook. (http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/11/hh11g.htm)

Unless you click on the "Historical Handbook" image, it's not obvious that this is a 1954 Historical Site handbook.

This page from that handbook http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/11/hh11n.htm states:

"1. Entrance to the base of the statue is through the high walls of old Fort Wood, through what was originally the fort's principal sally port. Its doors are 4 inches thick.

To the left of these heavy doors is a bronze tablet on which is inscribed the Emma Lazarus sonnet, The New Colossus, quoted on page 1."

So, I was pretty sure the poem wasn't "engraved on the pedestal," but was it really

in Battery Park
on the fort walls surrounding the statue
or on an interior wall in the museum within the statue?

The third, it seems--but after some discussion with [User:Lupo|Lupo] , who didn't understand why I was at pains to cite my source, I thought I'd better add this to the Talk page.

Hell of a good poem, anyway.

Naturally I'm curious about the 1954 statement. Was the plaque at one time on the fort walls surrounding the statue? Has it been moved? How many times? Dpbsmith 15:03, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Replicas

Smaller copies: there is, or used to be, a fairly large replica in Manhattan; it is or was an advertising display for a moving and storage company or something of the sort. I can't currently find any details. It's not a very good replica—is more of a pop-culture icon a la Zippy's "Muffler man"—but it is quite large, quite conspicuous, and certainly has confused even adult visitors. If anyone knows more about the "fake Statue of Liberty" in Manhattan it seems to me it would be worth a brief mention in the main article. Dpbsmith 16:05, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK, I found it--and added the material about the "Liberty Warehouse" replica. But I made the mistake of Googling on replica "Statue of Liberty" and... this could get out of hand. I had no idea how many replicas of the Statue there are. I'm going to pretend I didn't see most of them, but the item about the Boy Scouts of America replicas was just too good to pass up. Dpbsmith 21:28, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Known as Liberty Island since the early 1900s

The name was changed from Bedloe's Island to Liberty Island in 1956. My authority for saying it was informally known as Liberty Island "since the early 1900's" is that Baedeker's United States (1893) refers to it only as "the Statue of Liberty on Bedloe's Island," but the Britannica 11th Edition (1911) refers to "Bedloes Island (sometimes called Liberty Island from the Bartholdi statue on it of Liberty Enlightening the World)" Dpbsmith 22:45, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Current location and status of Liberty Warehouse replica

The Brooklyn Museum of Art has replied to my query:

February 10, 2004

Thank you for your interest in the Statue of Liberty sculpture in the Brooklyn Museum of Art collection. The piece is indeed at the Museum, but it is currently in storage awaiting treatment before it can be installed. Although we do plan to install the statue, we do not yet know when that will be.

Kevin Stayton

Chief Curator

Brooklyn Museum of Art

718-501-6250

Dpbsmith 21:52, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Smaller copies

i'm french and i'm not sure this is correct : A smaller-scale copy of the Statue of Liberty is placed in Paris, France, where it stands on an island in the river Seine, looking down the river, towards the Atlantic Ocean and hence towards its "larger sister" in New York. the seine does not go to the atlantic ocean, but in the english channel... or did i misunderstand something ???! ZeroJanvier 01:13, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Singer rumor

I moved this text here: It has been claimed that the statue was based upon Isabella Singer (wife of Isaac Singer of sewing machine fame). notice the use of the passive voice of non-attribution. Bertholdi's studio was in Paris, not a detail purveyors of tripe are aware of. Wetman 23:40, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm not responsible for that text, but I believe there might be something to it. But don't have time to look into it now. And agree, burden of proof should be on the person who puts it into the article. Hmmm... Googling on "Isabella Singer" Statue of Liberty does turn up a bunch of hits, NOT all from Wikipedia or copies, but I have to say they're not very convincing. Save it for another day... Dpbsmith 02:00, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The wife in question would be Isabella Eugenie (Boyer) Singer, and she was certainly in Paris from 1867 (the birth of her son, Paris Singer) onward. There's no problem with chronology or location. Ruth Brandon, Singer and the Sewing Machine: A Capitalist Romance, p. 211, discussing matters after Isaac's death in 1875: "She was rid of the uncouth presence of her husband, who had left her with only his most socially desirable attributes: his fortune and...his children. She was, from the beginning of her career in Paris, a well-known figure. As the good-looking French widow of an American industrialist she was called upon to be Bartholdi's model for the Statue of Liberty, then being prepared for presentation by the people of France to the Americans on the occasion of the centennial of the Republic (although it arrived several years too late for the actual celebrations)." The statement is, however, unsourced. - Nunh-huh 02:22, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Excellent! I've put it back, with the Ruth brandon reference> Wetman 02:38, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Of course, that wily M. Bartholdi may well have made use of more than one model<G> - Nunh-huh 02:43, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Nice! Now... we need to find a good picture of the statuesque Mrs. Singer. The one at http://www.torbytes.co.uk/op/tm6/lv2/item81-128.htm doesn't look much like Miss Liberty to me... Dpbsmith 12:56, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Height of statue

A May 21 edit by an anonymous user changed the stated height of the statue (base to torch tip) from 46.5 meters to 56.5 meters. I changed the primary statements of height information to be in feet, and I changed this particular figure to 46 meters, on the authority of the National Park Service website (http://www.nps.gov/stli/prod02.htm). JamesMLane 03:00, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Wisconsin prank

Great work by Dpbsmith to get permission to use the photo! I changed your phrase "giving the appearance that the entire statue were resting on the bottom of the lake." It doesn't really give that appearance. The arm is far too short. It's more of a fanciful suggestion than an appearance. JamesMLane 01:18, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. Your current edit is very nicely phrased, I'm tempted to say perfectly. Dpbsmith 12:43, 31 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That air-blast explosives-search device?

Anyone know any more about this? (Is anyone else old enough to remember those compressed-air systems they used to have at amusement-park funhouses (Aladdin's Castle, Playland, Rye, New York, to be specific) which were designed to lift women's skirts? Big laffs...

And is it really specific for explosives, or would any nitrate residue set it off? [[User:Dpbsmith|dpbsmith (talk)]] 20:51, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Deus Ex

Deus Ex had lots of different possible player choices, but I don't believe any of them involved the destruction of the the statue.

The headquarters for the agency that JC Denton worked for were located on the same island, and the first mission of the game involve terrorists IN the statue. They never blew it up while I was playing, though...

A sez: Dude, you weren't paying attention then. The statue was blown up before the game starts. You can see the remains of the head of the statue in that level if you look around carefully.

Liberty Island in New York or New Jersey?

From what I recall, Liberty Island is technically part of New Jersey, not New York. DigiBullet 05:50, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That's a common misconception. The debate over sovereignty was never over Liberty Island, but rather Ellis Island, which is constructed of infill. -- Decumanus | Talk 05:55, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

An anon, 67.171.1.204, recently added this statement to the History section. "It is a little known fact that the Statue of Liberty is actually in New Jersey." I've replaced it with this statement, from http://www.nps.gov/stli/ : "Liberty Island is federal property located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York." This sentence should probably be left in the article to deter reinsertion of incorrect information. Don't know whether this is really the best location in the article for it, others please feel free to tinker. The right place for any extended discussion would be the article on Liberty Island.

Anyone who thinks that it really is in New Jersey, please provide evidence here before inserting in the article. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 15:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, User:Sekicho wordsmithed it a bit and I wordsmithed it a bit more and moved it up to the "description" section. Current text is:

Liberty Island, the location of the statue, is Federal property located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. Because it is in the territorial waters of New Jersey it is sometime mistakenly believed to be part of New Jersey. There was in fact a long-running dispute between New York and New Jersey over the status of nearby Ellis Island, but Liberty Island was never involved in this dispute.

I wanted to say "New Jersey has never made any such claim" but I don't have time to do enough research to prove a negative. Anybody know?

Also, I find that I'm slightly puzzled by the status of Ellis Island. Our article (and the park service web site) says "Ellis Island is managed by the National Park Service and is jointly part of both the states of New Jersey and New York." A 1998 CNN story, New Jersey wins claim to Ellis Island (http://www.cnn.com/US/9805/26/scotus.ellis.island/), says "The high court, by a 6-3 vote, declared that Ellis Island, the site of the landmark U.S. immigration processing center from the 1890s until 1954, belongs largely to New Jersey in a case that mainly involved symbolic bragging rights. As a result, most of the island in New York Harbor from now on must be considered Ellis Island, New Jersey.... The Supreme Court agreed that New Jersey could claim the land to the low-water mark. But the justices also agreed with the Clinton administration that it could not adjust the original boundary to avoid splitting buildings." It doesn't matter re the Statue of Liberty article, but these two statements ("Jointly part of both" and "belongs largely to New Jersey") don't seem to be perfectly equivalent. Perhaps there was some later agreement? I'm going to copy this remark to Talk:Ellis Island which I guess is where it should be discussed. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 18:07, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I changed "in the territorial waters of NJ" to "nearer to the NJ shore". The island is not in the territorial waters of NJ, as the original compact creating NJ out of the Province of New York specified that all islands in the Hudson River belong to New York (this became an issue in the status of Staten Island early on. Ellis Island was disputed because it is not a natural island but was created from infill (like most of nearby Liberty State Park. -- Decumanus 18:33, 2004 Oct 21 (UTC)

Both Liberty Island and Ellis Island belong to New Jersey. As a lifelong resident of New Jersey, these are facts that I know. I also know that out-of-staters commonly misperceive that both are part of NYC, as the islands are often thought of as being symbolic of "New York". However, this is clearly ignorance on the part of people who think this. It's the same as when people believe that the Giants/Jets play IN New York because they have "New York" in their names, so therefore Giants Stadium couldn't possibly NOT be in NYC. It's the same as when people believe that Newark is a neighborhood or a borough of NYC, since Newark Airport is considered a "NYC" airport. It's the same type of ignorance that once led Tori Spelling to claim that "New Jersey" was the capital of New York. Some people genuinely don't seem to be able to understand that there are two different states and/or where one state ends and the other begins. With the borders between the two states, there are no convenient indicators that you can point to and say we must be here or there. Most of northern NJ is identical to most of southern NY state in every way, most of NJ's large cities and urban areas are identical to NYC in every way, and rural upstate NY is identical to rural southern & western NJ in every way. I don't know how the NYers feel about the issue, but most of us in NJ are fed up with NY getting credit for NJ things simply because NYC is the big city that everyone associates most with the area. (It does happen the other way around too, just not as often--one example that I can think of is a friend of mine who recently commented that he was in "NJ"'s Pallisades Mall; this mall is actually just over the border in NY state, which, as I said, blends in seemlessly with northeastern NJ.) The confusion is probably due to the fact that NYC lies not off the coast of NY, but off the coast of NJ, and therefore NYC and NJ share each other's resources much more quickly and often than NYC does with its own state; and that geographically, economically, politically, culturally, and socially, NYC would fit in much better as a part of NJ than a part of the rural, cold, working-class, farmland state that the rest of NY is.

The notion that the Statue of Liberty or Ellis Island is within NY's borders is just similar ignorance as the stuff I've listed above, which is perpetuated by people who are unfamiliar with the area, New Yorkers who don't want to "lose" "their" monuments and historical sites, and lazy/careless academics who use the term "New York" to mean the entire metro area but are misinterpreted as having meant the city itself. NY state's license plate used to have the statue on it, as does its state quarter. Again, this is SYMBOLIC use of the statue as representig the NY metro area--but, ignorant people don't interpret it that way because they do not understand the intricacies of the NYC-NJ relationship which is something that is unheard of in all other parts of the country (i.e., in other states, a city belongs to a state and most directly affects its OWN state; and people from out of state have to travel INTO and then WITHIN the other state in order to get to the state's city--not true of NJ residents and NYC, most of whom have been to the city far more often than to NY state). Ignorant comments by high-profile political figures like Rudy Guiliani don't help things either, because he obviously gets more international press coverage than the mayor of Jersey City or the Jersey governor. Who cares that his ancestors "didn't intend" to go to NJ when they entered the U.S.A.? Neither did mine, who all settled initially in NYC before making the move to NJ a generation or two later! The fact of the matter is, though, that all our ancestors did enter the states via NJ when checking in at Ellis Island, regardless of whether they initially settled in NJ, NY, or whether their decesdants live in NJ or NY now.

For anyone who wants to know the TRUTH, it's clearly out there to be found. Your laziness shows in that you removed factual information from this article simply because you did not agree with the facts. The presence of such facts complicates matters, and makes people realize that issues relating the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island are not cut & dry, black & white. People don't like change. People don't like "radical" ideas, or change of the status quo. People are comfortable associating the Statue and Ellis with New York, so they don't want to hear about how these symbols of America, New York City, and New York's status as a nineteenth century immigration headquarters aren't actually IN New York City, or the state of New York, at all. People don't like the idea of having to go to New Jersey in order to see "New York's" world-renowned monuments. Part of me can relate to that--it would be as if we had to actually go to, say, Canada in order to see the Empire State Building, or if the Eiffel Tower was not really in France at all, but was in Luxembourg. We'd feel cheated, lied to. Who wants to go to Luxembourg? We came to France to see the tower, and goddammit, we're going to see the tower IN France! But, ultimately, thoughts like this show bias, because NJ has as much culture and history as NY and, like it or not, the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island are part of ITS history and culture, not NY's. I know it probably takes away some of the statue's "magic" for you, but, oh well...you can't go on believing in Santa Claus forever.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to prove a fact to people who will likely do and say anything to refute it, no matter how much evidence I show. But, I will give one quick piece of proof which, to the average and unbiased reader, should be more than enough. Here's a Mapquest link:

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&address=&city=jersey+city&state=nj&zipcode=

It's of Jersey City, the red star. Zoom in two levels: You'll see the Communipaw area of JC in the northwest, with Liberty State Park jutting out from it into the harbor. The two small islands off of the coast of Liberty Park (I wonder where it gets its name?) are Ellis & Liberty Islands. Then about 3X further from the Jersey coast than the islands are themselves, you'll see the BORDER between NY and NJ. So, the islands are both CLEARLY within the border (as I said, they're about 1/3-1/2 way between the Jersey coast and the BORDER of NYC; it's not even an ambiguous issue! As can also be seen on the map at this zoom level, the closest that NYC comes to either island is something called "Governors Island", which is not even an official part of the city. Manhattan can be seen in the upper right corner, and Brooklyn in the lower right. Neither of the two islands comes close to either borough's land. Zoom in one more level, and you will see each island clearly labeled (in case you think this is some kind of trick). Note: I never challenged ANYTHING in any article that said NYC laid claim to either island or has some form of political/economic control over either island, because NYC CLEARLY DOES have control and influence over the islands, and the islands are CLEARLY symbolic representors of the city. I merely added in, in an attempt to reduce bias and increase accuracy (which, I thought, are two of this project's biggest goals in its articles), information that NJ also had similar rights over the islands as well the territorial ownership of the islands, and people are in an uproar over it! It's outrageous!

You want more evidence, don't trust a map, whatever?...do your own searching.68.44.184.172 05:55, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I did. I cited my reference above, the Park Service. The only reference you cite is a map which shows the physical location of the statue. I trust the map but I don't trust your interpretation of the map. You are presenting your personal interpretation. As it happens, the town I live in owns a reservoir that is contained entirely within the marked boundaries of a neighboring town. The ownership of the reservoir is not in dispute. However, simply looking at any map would not show the reservoir's status. Please cite something other than a Mapquest map and your own opinion that, based on its location, it ought to be considered part of New Jersey. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 10:55, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC) P. S. The question of the attitudes of New Yorkers toward New Jersey are not germane to the question.

DISCUSSION: New York or New Jersey?

Let's try to stay calm and wordsmith this.

I am starting this section for discussion of the question of how to phrase portions of the article bearing on whether Liberty Island and/or the statue of Liberty are "in" New York or New Jersey. Do not remove the NPOV notice or edit the statements in the article that deal with this question until consensus is reached here.

I believe, based on prior discussion above, that the statements in the article, viz:

The Statue of Liberty is located on Liberty Island in New York Harbor, some 3 kilometers south-west of the southern tip of Manhattan.

Liberty Island, the location of the statue, is Federal property located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York. Because it is nearer to the New Jersey shore, it is sometime mistakenly believed to be part of New Jersey. A longstanding dispute between New York and New Jersey over the status of nearby Ellis Island (q. v.) was settled in 1998 largely in favor of New Jersey, but Liberty Island was not involved in this dispute.

are factually correct and fairly phrased.

The paragraph as edited by 68.44.184.172 to read

The Statue of Liberty is located on Liberty Island in New York Harbor, some 2 miles (3 km) south-west of the southern tip of Manhattan and a few hundred feet off the coast of Jersey City. (The island was informally known as Liberty Island since the early 1900s, but was officially Bedloe's Island until 1956.)

(i.e. to make it clear that it's relatively farther from New York and very close to New Jersey) seems OK, too.

Liberty Island, the location of the statue, is Federal property located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York, which is why many erroneously believe that the statue is part of that state. However, in actuality, the island is well within the border of the state of New Jersey, merely feet off the coast of Jersey Coty. A longstanding dispute between New York and New Jersey over the status of nearby Ellis Island (q. v.) was settled in 1998 largely in favor of New Jersey, but Liberty Island was not involved in this dispute, so New York still lays claim to the island.

This needs wordsmithing. If "New York still lays claim to the island" then why isn't the statue "part of that state?" I'm not saying it is, I'm saying the language needs clarification. There was an official dispute between the states on the status of Ellis Island, which has been resolved. Is there an official dispute between New York and New Jersey over Liberty Island which has not been resolved? Or is there only an unofficial "cultural" dispute?

In the "smaller copies" section, I don't like the change from "the original Liberty in New York" to "the original Liberty in New Jersey." I suggest that this and the parallel sentence later be changed to "the original Liberty in New York Harbor" or "the original Liberty in the U.S." in order to sidestep the issue in that part of the article.

I would not object to a short paragraph saying that there is a dispute and presenting the New Jersey point of view. Can it be backed up by official statements from New Jersey officials? Newspaper editorials? Something that is not simply 68.44.184.172 asserting what he says is the New Jersey point of view?

(I don't live in New York by the way and don't care which state the statue is "in."). [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:09, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I live in NJ and I do care. Especially since it is new JERSEY which supplies the electricity and water and everything else to the island. it is located in New JERSEY waters and has been faught over repeatedly by New York and New Jersey. New Jersey has a Statue of Liberty license plate which no one on here seems to even know about - which is the one I have - New Jersey's Statue of Liberty License Plate (http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/images/liberty.gif). --JerseyDevil 10:34, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please clarify your remark that it "has been fought over repeatedly by New York and New Jersey." That's just the point that I haven't been able to find any evidence of. We all know about the fight over Ellis Island, but so far nobody has produced any evidence of any dispute over Liberty/Bedloe's Island. If you have any references to any such dispute, I think it would be appropriate to include them in the article (after discussion). [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 11:14, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What about about "New York Harbor?" Is it acceptable to say the statue and island are "in New York Harbor" (as opposed to "in New York State" or "in New York?") Or is the name "New York Harbor" objected to by New Jersey residents? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:26, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't object to being said that it's in NY Harbor - as long is it is stated it's inNJ waters - since that is where it is located. --JerseyDevil 10:17, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

this site (http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/US/NY/NewYorkStatueofLiberty.html) says:

"Some people also believe that the the statue is is New Jersey, not New York. This is an urban myth. While Liberty Island is geographically closer to New Jersey than New York, it is part of the Empire State the same way Staten Island is, even though it, too, is closer to New Jersey than New York City."

Well, what about that? Is the analogy to Staten Island valid? Would anybody say that Staten Island is "in New Jersey?" [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:26, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is all a moot argument: The original 1664 charter of the Province of New Jersey (carved out of part of the Province of New York) to Berkeley and Carteret from the Duke of York specified that all the islands in the Hudson River remained part of New York charter text (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/nj01.htm). Specifically New Jersey was "bounded by the Hudson River" rather than from the middle channel, as was common in other colonial charters. That is, as everyone understood at the the time, the NY-NJ border does not go through the center of the river channel as one might naturally assume (the same is true with the Ohio River, for example, where all the islands belong to West Virginia and Kentucky and not to Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. This go to be an issue recently when Ohio tried to extend the shoreline to creat a power facility. The river itself is part of West Virginia there). So Bedloes (Liberty Island) was always part of the Province and State of New York based on the 1664 charter, the borders of which carried over into the states. The fact that Liberty Island is owned by the federal goverment is immaterial. Within the continental U.S., outside the District of Columbia, there is no such thing as federal property not part of a state. Even though the federal goverment controls it, it is technically still within New York State. As for Staten Island, the status was disputed after the original 1664 charter based on whether or not it was really an island "in" the Hudson. That is, is the Arthur Kill part of the mouth of the Hudson, or is the Hudson to be identified solely with the Narrows. An unattested legend is that the status of Staten Island was settled based on whether or not one could sail around it within 24 hours, which proved to be possible, and thus it became part of New York, not New Jersey. But by contrast Bedloes was never disputed. The reason Ellis Island was disputed was that it was created from infill (like Liberty State Park) and thus is not an natural island that existed at the time of the charter. There never has been a dispute over Liberty Island, on the other hand. The fact that it is nearer to the Jersey shore is immaterial, even if it seems to be counter to what one would expect. -- Decumanus 23:11, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)

Thanks. As I nibble away at this myself, I find that New York almost seems to be a little archipelago and contains quite a few little islands here and there... Another website, http://www.endex.com/gf/buildings/liberty/libertyquestions.htm#solq12 says:

Q: ...recently, I heard that the site on which the Statue of Liberty stands... might even belong to New Jersey. Is that true ? Makio M. A. The ownership of Liberty Island has never been questioned as New York Territory. It was owned privately in the 18th century and known as Bedloe's Island, eventually acquired by the State of New York, governed under the jurisdiction of New York City. The report you heard about was a dispute over Ellis Island...

I have been Googling and newspaper-searching on combinations like "Liberty Island" dispute and "Liberty Island" "New York" "New Jersey" and so far have found not the slightest scrap of evidence that there is or has ever been any official dispute about Liberty Island.

I did find a piece of evidence that there are other New Jersey residents who agree with 68.44.184.172, in the form of a New York Times article, May 31, 1994, p. B4 (well, I have access to a searchable archive of the New York Times but not to any New Jersey newspapers... the ones that are online, like the Star-Ledger, appear to offer searches only within the last two weeks), entitled "Claiming Miss Liberty as a Jersey City Resident," which is basically a human-interest piece on one Richard Boggiano who "knows all too well that some people would put him in the same orbit as the flat earthers and moon landing conspiracy theorists... [he] will not be budged from his conviction that Jersey City is the territorial home of Ellis Island. Liberty Island, too. 'Oh, sure,' he said. 'Both of them are in our territorial waters. The Statue of Liberty is One Communipaw Avenue, Jersey City. Ellis Island is Two Communipaw.... Mr. Boggiano and a small but impassioned group of New Jerseyans, most of them from Jersey City, are determined to spread the Jersey side of the story...." The piece gives the rationale, accepted by the court, for considering Ellis Island part of New Jersey, but says nothing specific about Liberty Island.

I am not sure whether the existence of this group of people needs to be mentioned in the article. It's not clear to me how important it is. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 00:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposal I'm going to give 68.44.184.172 a day or so to respond. If nobody presents any serious evidence that, as of 2004, the state of New Jersey officially disputes the ownership of Liberty Island, I will change the two references to the French statue as facing "New York" to say that it faces "New York Harbor," and put back the phrase inserted by 68.44.184.172 that notes that Liberty Island is located "a few hundred feet off the coast of Jersey City, and remove the POV notice. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 00:40, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I largely agree, except I think that Decumanus's fine research should be mentioned, to forestall future editors from "discovering" that it's on the Jersey side of the line and thinking they'll correct the mistake. I also don't like "territorial jurisdiction" of New York. That wording might suggest some kind of unusual legalistic arrangement. No one would say that Buffalo is under the territorial jurisdiction of New York, although of course it is, and for the same reason as Liberty Island -- that it's part of the state. Here's my specific suggestion:

First paragraph under "Description":

The Statue of Liberty is located on Liberty Island in New York Harbor, some two miles (three km) southwest of the southern tip of Manhattan, and a few hundred feet off the coast of Jersey City, New Jersey. (The island was officially called "Bedloe's Island" until 1956, but the name "Liberty Island" has been in popular use since the early 1900s.)

Last paragraph under "Description":

Although Liberty Island is closer to New Jersey than to New York, it has been part of New York since the issuance in 1664 of the colonial charter that created New Jersey (see charter text (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/nj01.htm)). Portions of nearby Ellis Island that were formed by subsequent landfilling are, under a Supreme Court decision, part of New Jersey, but that decision had no effect on Liberty Island. The island is owned by the federal government and is administered by the National Park Service.

Decumanus, I think the additional information about the charter etc. that you found is too much detail for this article, but should go into the Liberty Island article. Should the concept of English royal charters in the New World be added to the charter article, or do you think a new article on colonial charter would be justified? JamesMLane 04:23, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agree with all of the above. Continuing with my own less-well-informed concerns... I'm assuming that nobody has any objections to modifying the descriptions of the statue in France to say that it faces the statue in "New York Harbor" rather than New York. Now. Is the (I-think-erroneous) belief by some New Jersey boosters that the ownership/jurisdiction/whatever of Liberty Island is a) in dispute, and b) rightfully was or is or should be New Jersey... is that a "fact about opinions" that ought to go in the article? I'm on the fence about this myself. Certainly if there were to be a paragraph about it, JerseyDevil's license plate would be a fine illustration... On the whole I've found much less chatter about this e.g. searching on USENET than might have been expected if it were really a widely-held belief and a serious thing among New Jersey residents. A few curt exchanges and not very serious exchanges of battling assertions on alt.fan.cecil-adams ("OK, you can have Liberty Island but only if you take Staten Island, too." "Oh, well, in that case never mind" sort of thing). [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 11:14, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

QUESTION: "Liberty Island, the location of the statue, is Federal property located within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York." As of 2004, does the fact that it is "within the territorial jurisdiction of the State of New York" have any practical, real-world meaning that anyone knows of? (Obviously, in the future, if through unthinkable contingencies the island were to cease to become a national monument and Federal property the fact that it belonged to New York would have some significance if, say, someone wanted to site a casino or a Starbucks there or something...) As it stands, does it have any meaning other than giving New York the right to say they own it in some technical sense? I'd assume any law enforcement on Liberty Island is handled by the Feds, any construction by the park service, etc. In other words, apart from a (valid and undisputed) territorial claim, does New York have any relationship to the island? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 15:24, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As I said above, I dislike the phrase "territorial jurisdiction". Liberty Island is like the campus at West Point -- it's politically a part of New York, and the property owner is the federal government. (New York State might decide to buy a house in Arlington, Virginia to provide as a perk to its chief lobbyist who works Congress on behalf of New York. That wouldn't move the house to New York. It would still be part of Virginia regardless of who owned it.) If your question is whether it makes any practical difference that the island is part of New York, the answer is: "Not much, but some." For example, New York has a statute, not shared by any other state AFAIK, that gives particularly strong protection to construction workers injured in certain types of accidents. My former law firm represented someone who'd been injured while doing repair work on a building at West Point. The defense argued that the New York statute was inapplicable because West Point is a federal enclave. We found a federal statute addressing subjects not covered by federal law, such as the tort law governing an accident. The federal rule is that, on federal enclaves, the law of the state is applied. So this issue will make a difference the first time some guy who's painting the wall at the Liberty Island visitor center falls off his ladder and is injured. There are other types of disputes that could be affected by the choice between New York law and New Jersey law. JamesMLane 02:26, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

START OF DRAFT for proposed paragraph or section, to be located just before or after the Popular Culture section, including juicy morsel carved from Decumanus' text above: [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 15:24, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Relationship to New Jersey Some New Jersey boosters, particularly in Jersey City, resent the popular association of the Statue of Liberty with the state and city of New York. Although New York's territorial claim to Liberty Island has never been in dispute, these boosters insist that Liberty Island "belongs to New Jersey" or "is located within New Jersey's territorial waters." The island is, in fact, only a few hundred feet from Jersey City, and superb views of the statue can be had from Liberty State Park on the New Jersey mainland. A 1994 newspaper article quotes Jersey City resident Richard Boggiano as insisting that the proper street address of the Statue of Liberty "is One Communipaw Avenue, Jersey City. Ellis Island is Two Communipaw." It is not unusual to see maps with the border between New Jersey and New York conveniently but inaccurately drawn down the center of the Hudson River, thus apparently showing Liberty Island as located within New Jersey's borders. New Jersey supplies the electricity for both Liberty and Ellis Island, and features an image of the statue on one of its license plate designs.

Unfortunately for such claims—and unlike the case of Ellis Island—there has never been any official dispute about the status of Liberty Island. The original 1664 charter of the Province of New Jersey specified that all the islands in the Hudson River remained part of New York charter text (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/states/nj01.htm). Specifically New Jersey was "bounded by the Hudson River" rather than from the middle channel, as was common in other colonial charters. That is, as everyone understood at the the time, the NY-NJ border does not go through the center of the river channel.

Does something like this belong in the article? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 15:24, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd say that it doesn't belong, based on this policy: "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents.... If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it doesn't belong in Wikipedia...." (Wikipedia:No original research#Classifying viewpoints by appropriateness). In this case, we're told that the POV that the statue is in Jersey City is held by "Mr. Boggiano and a small but impassioned group of New Jerseyans, most of them from Jersey City..." Not worth reporting. JamesMLane 02:37, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Summary to date. And: where IS the NY/NY boundary, as of, say, 1834?

I've taken the NPOV tag off; I was the one who put it on. That doesn't mean the discussion is over and I hope it will continue. I changed the two mentions of the French statue to say that it faces "New York Harbor." I've changed the description of the location to include the distance from Jersey City, listed the (much shorter) distance from Jersey City first, and gave the distances from Jersey City in feet and meters and the distances from New York in statues mile and kilometers, which I think makes the point.

User:JerseyDevil still thinks there should be some language to the effect that Liberty Island is geographically within the territorial waters of New Jersey, but I think this needs further hashing out.

Here's where I I think we are:

Liberty Island is "in" New York State, and nobody has yet suggested that there has ever been any official dispute about this. This is because of legalities and agreements between the states and not because of what you'd expect by looking at a map or measuring mean high water at neap tide or whatever.
User:Digibullet, anon 67.171.1.204, anon 68.44.184.172, and User:JerseyDevil have made assertions and given reasons why it should be associated with New Jersey.
It is clear that there are some New Jersey boosters who are deeply resentful of what they perceive as an unfair popular perception that New York is somehow superior to New Jersey, and the location of the Statue of Liberty is involved in this resentment.
One newspaper story identifies one such booster who lives in Jersey City, but nobody has yet turned up any prominent officials or authorities or mayors or governors saying anything like this.
There is not yet agreement on whether the faction insisting that Liberty Island is "in New Jersey" is large enough or important enough to merit more than the degree of coverage presently in the article (the short paragraph at the end of the Description section).

New Jersey boosters tend to cite these things in evidence of their claim:

The Ellis Island decision
Ordinary maps (road maps, online maps, road atlases), which generally (four out of four I've checked) draw the border down the center of the Hudson, label Liberty Island, and do not have any dotted lines or parenthetical notes that say anything about its status other than what can be inferred visually
The New Jersey license plate with the picture of the Statue of Liberty on it
Statements that the island is "within New Jersey's territorial waters"

Now, I am perfectly clear that the position of the main boundary between New York and New Jersey, as drawn on a map, would not prove anything, since it is quite common for countries, states, counties, towns, etc. to "own" little discontiguous chunks of things that appear to be within the borders of neighbors.

But, where IS the border line?

Regardless of whether we put anything more in the main article, I'd still like to get the facts as straight as possible, and I particularly want to understand what Decumanus is saying in the paragraph about the 1664 charter, which says the original historic boundary did not pass down the center of the Hudson but that New Jersey was bounded by the Hudson itself.

But did that change in 1834?

http://www.hudsonlights.com/liberty.htm is a detailed and interesting account of Liberty Island's various changes of status. It says that "While Bedloe's Island, with an area of approximately 12 acres, is located in the Upper Bay of New York Harbor, it is geographically in the territorial waters of New Jersey. The island itself above the mean low-water mark is in New York State, pursuant to an interstate compact entered into by New Jersey and New York in 1834. The State of New Jersey retains the riparian rights to all the submerged land surrounding the statue and extending eastward to the normal interstate boundary line at the middle of the Hudson River Channel." That seems to say that the current state boundary now is in "the middle of the Hudson River Channel." What do people, particularly Decumanus, have to say about this language?

http://lw.bna.com/lw/19980526/120orig.htm which seems an, um, whatever it is, about the Supreme Court decision, says "An 1834 compact between New York and New Jersey, approved by Congress pursuant to the Compact Clause, set the boundary line between the States as the middle of the Hudson River" with various exceptions, and since this is a summary of the Ellis Island cases it does not go into details.

Maps (I'm looking at the DeLorme New York atlas) do seem to show the border going down the center of the Hudson, then turning sharply west to include Staten Island within New York. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:21, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

P. S. I'm thinking that if anything more about the New Jersey claim is to be said, the place for it is in the Liberty Island article, with a brief See Also note in Statue of Liberty. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:36, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, this is the reason for the former dispute over the created island Ellis Island. The existing natural islands (Liberty Island, Staten Island, Prall's Island) were not affected by this compact. No one in an official status has ever claimed that they were. Ellis Island and part of Shooter's Island are infill. I'm not interested in arguing this further, because there really is no argument on an official basis. If you decide it belongs to New Jersey and want to change the article to say it belongs to New Jersey, go ahead.-- Decumanus 15:43, 2004 Dec 26 (UTC)

Decumanus, I don't disagree with you. In order to write something accurate, I want to be personally clear on where the current boundary between New York and New Jersey is drawn.

My current belief is that as of 1834 the boundary line is in the middle of the Hudson,
Maps which show it there are correct,
This fact is completely irrelevant to the issue of which state Liberty Island is "in," because all the islands belong to New York;
The only dispute has ever been about landfill added to Ellis Island
There is a case to be made for the following statement: although Liberty Island is indisputably under the territorial jurisdiction of New York, it is geographically situated within the current boundaries of New Jersey.

But I don't want to say any of these things unless, well, they are true. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:28, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dpbsmith, I agree with you in all respects. What I've done is to implement the language I suggested above, except using your version of the distances (putting the distance from Jersey City first and in smaller units). If we can develop the subject at greater length in the Liberty Island article, it might be worth noting here that more detail is available there. JamesMLane 19:59, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Like your changes.

OK, I've basically decide to write a section on this issue, but in the article on Liberty Island. Continue discussion there. Decumanus, I won't bug you on your user page about this, but if you haven't lost patience with the whole thing I'd appreciate a critical eye on what I've written. User:JerseyDevil, see if what I've done is acceptable to you. See notes which I'm (just about to write) at Talk:Liberty Island.

List of movies

I thought it was against WP policy to ~~not~~ use sub pages... Cburnett 20:00, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

You have one too many negative in there, but I get your meaning, and you're correct. I'm moving the list from a subpage to a daughter article. JamesMLane 20:19, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Semantically, it's a subpage. But the new name is fine, too. - Pioneer-12 04:16, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Statue colour over time

Liberty is clearly a greenish colour today, but the unveiling painting shows it black. This would be consistent with the way that copper changes over time while exposed to air. Are there any facts or observations available about how long the black colour lasted? If nothing else, a definitive explanation for how it looks black in the painting but green today would be valuable; I don't have the data to explain this adequately, however.

Additionally, did the statue ever look copper-coloured? I think a brilliantly shiny Liberty would have been unbelievably striking to see, but I've never seen any record that it ever looked this way. Could it have done? Was it intended to? (I guess this hinges on why copper was chosen as the material for the statue's skin.)

Fcw 13:02, 2005 May 31 (UTC)

i'm also curious about this! surely there are some newspaper accounts that describe the statue's original color.

- anon.

Copper was chosen because it could survive a transatlantic crossing well, and because it would stand up well to the salt air in New York harbor. Here's a quote from the National Park Service (http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/hh/11/hh11k.htm):
Time has also improved the physical appearance of the statue. The former shiny copper exterior has been coated with an attractive patina of light-green verdigris which not only protects the metal from the effect of wind and rain but also enhances the beauty and dignity of the statue.

--jpgordon ∇∆∇∆ 16:21, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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