Talk:St Mary's Church, Gdansk (Danzig)

Aren't there a lot of Marienkirches? This should be a disambiguation page. RickK 04:29, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Probably. I'll do that. Nico 04:40, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, Nico, but Marienkirche is neither the official name of the temple nor the English name of it. Of course unless you can prove that Virgin Mary is called St.Marie in English and that all churches are called kirche.Halibutt 03:33, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The church is known as the Marienkirche of Danzig in English (see for instance the external link), and will stay here.Nico 10:59, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nico, your version is German. I never thought I'll use Google as a dictionary, but this time it's plain.

• Search for Marienkirche of Danzig (http://www.google.com/search?q=Marienkirche+of+Danzig&hl=pl&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=0&sa=N) returns 2,740 hits, but on the first 10 pages of the search there are only two (2) links in English, the rest is in German
• Search for St Mary's Church in Gdansk (http://www.google.com/search?q=St+Mary%27s+Church+in+Gdansk&hl=pl&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=0&sa=N) returns with 3,760 hits, and on the first 10 pages there are no Polish or German pages, only English-language.

You still want to insist that this church is called Marienkirche in English? Feel free, but please stop this edt war...Halibutt 12:09, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A Google search for (marienkirche gdansk OR danzig -mary's -site:wikipedia.org) in English returns 145 hits, while (gdansk OR danzig "mary's church" -marienkirche -site:wikipedia.org) returns 605 hits.
Besides, it's an English, not German Wikipedia, and the convention for church names in ENglish (and in contrast to place names, it's raher undisputed) is:
St [Saint's name] 's {Church, Cahtedral, etc.}

Note:

• No dot after St
• Saint's name in possessive ('s)
• The word "church", etc. capitalized
  

That's why I redirected St. Mary's Church in Gdansk, St. Mary Church in Gdansk, St Mary's church in Gdansk, St Mary Church in Gdansk, St. Mary's church in Gdansk, and of course Marienkirche of Danzig to St Mary's Church in Gdansk.

Kpalion 12:27, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This page title should be acceptable to all

It's a compromise based on the fact that the name of the city was "Danzig" at the time of construction, and is now "Gdansk". Mkweise 19:01, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This is perfect. Thanks. Nico 20:37, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Note to future readers: at the time of writing the above the title was St Mary's Church of Danzig (Gdansk) — Jor (Talk) 15:25, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I do not agree with this edit. The church was rebuilt in 1956 and has no German connection whatsover except maybe the style. In 1956 as in the 1400s to 1500s the City was a part of Poland and called Gdansk. So if anything the title should be St Mary's Church of Gdansk (Danzig)24.2.152.139 15:29, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You've got a point about Gdansk (Danzig) vs. Danzig (Gdansk). I have no objection to switching the order in which the names are listed, if that will put an end to the revert war. Mkweise 16:51, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wik is reverting now (or continuing reverts: may be his IP). — Jor (Talk) 16:52, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Rather than use Talk pages he insists on a quick poll: Wikipedia:Quickpolls#St_Mary's_Church — Jor (Talk) 17:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Is anyone opposed to moving to St Mary's Church or St Mary's Church, Poland? Then the city naming compromise is gone from the article title, and can be dealt with something like "standing in [[Gdansk|Gdańsk]] (Danzig), …" — the Gdańsk/Danzig article discusses the city name in detail. — Jor (Talk) 15:36, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Has been suggested before—but this isn't the only St Mary's Church, nor even the only one in Poland. We already have an article on St Mary's Church in Kraków. Mkweise 16:01, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. Any others in Pommerania? St Mary's Church (Pommerania) / St Mary's Church in Pommerania / St Mary's Church, Pommerania? — Jor (Talk) 16:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Suggestion article be protected at St Mary's Church of Danzig (Gdansk) location (most recent edits) until discussion on move is over. — Jor (Talk) 16:55, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Alternatively a page MOVE to a neutral location. — Jor (Talk) 17:03, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I recuse myself from protecting my own revision. If this page needs protection, another admin should do it. Mkweise 17:09, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Any thoughts on using Pommerania as a disambig title instead of Danzig/Gdańsk? — Jor (Talk) 17:21, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That seems rather odd. It would be like moving the London Tube to Tube in Middlesex.Halibutt 17:40, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

1)Agreed there. But we really do not need yet another location for the Danzig/Gdansk/whatever slugging match... — Jor (Talk) 17:42, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What about St Mary's Church of 1502, taking the date it was completed? — Jor (Talk) 17:48, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

LOL, how about St Mary's Church in you-know-where? Seriously, we should not sacrifice clear and unambiguous article titles for the sake of weasely political correctness. Mkweise 19:02, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In that case Wikipedia should create a 'list of cities in Poland with other names', and strongly enforce the forms given there... — Jor (Talk) 19:03, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Although it takes no clarvoyant to know that such a list will be as hotly disputed as the individual pages are now. Some German users refuse to accept Polish names, and some Polish users refuse to accept historic German names... — Jor (Talk) 19:08, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There already is a List of European cities with alternative names. I think it might be good if all articles about Polish cities with disputed names linked there. As for St Mary's, I'd prefer St Mary's Church of Gdansk (Danzig) (current name first - after all, if you want to visit the church, you have to go to Gdańsk, not Danzig). But I can live with St Mary's Church of Danzig (Gdansk). --Kpalion 19:20, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have no objection to your moving the article to St Mary's Church, Gdansk (Danzig), if Halibutt and Jor can live with that. If it's really true, as Halibutt states below, that User:Nico is the only one who has a problem with St Mary's Church, Gdansk that that's fine with me too—though of course the German name should remain in the article text in any case. Mkweise 20:03, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Look, nobody (I hope) has any problem with placing the church on the map. The only problem is that User:Nico believes that the English name of the city is still Danzig. I know that it's not. IMO the page should be moved to St Mary's Church in Gdansk because it is in Gdansk. Otherwise we'd have to move other pages too. Like the Tower of London to Tower of Lugdunum (London) (Romans started it). The fact that the present church was built by the Teutonic Order and that the German name was used at the time could be mentioned too, but it's not obligatory. Anyway, I see no point in St Mary's Church of Danzig (Gdansk) thing.Halibutt 19:23, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd rather have both names in the title than two separate, competing articles under different names; that was a situation I found completely unacceptable. Mkweise 19:41, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps protecting redirect pages could be a good solution. This could prevent people from changing redirects to new competing articles which would differ from the main article in nothing but the title and the first sentence. --Kpalion 20:05, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I hope you mean not as a general rule, as this would effectively make it impossible to move a page in order to create a disambiguation page. — Jor (Talk) 20:07, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia policy, protecting a page is never a good solution, but rather an emergency measure that we resort to when all else fails. Mkweise 20:13, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'd rather have this article at St Mary's Church in Gdansk since this is the name used in English (look at the links posted) and this is the name of the city. After the evidence has been posted and starting an edit war failed, Nico simply created a new, similar and competing article. IMO that should be fixed and the whole case ended.Halibutt 21:47, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Alright...since it appears that the total number of Wikipedians opposed to that is one, let's try it and see what happens. I'll use a comma rather than a preposition, since that's more in keeping with encylopedic style (compare e.g. Christ Church, Oxford). Mkweise 22:24, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

TO

Cautious, why did you remove my reference to the Teutonic Order?Halibutt 10:48, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Other sources

1. The CIA World Factbook 2003 calls the city Gdansk.
2. Encyclopedia Britannica Online calls the city Gdansk.
3. en:Wikipedia calls the city Gdansk.

Now, since the church is IN Gdansk right now, the title should probably be (IMHO) St Mary's Church in Gdansk (as previously suggested by Halibutt), this is in line with the article title of St Mary's Church in Kraków. Anyone who searches for St Mary's Church in Danzig will still get there as it will be a redirect. The fact that Gdansk was previously named Danzig (English language of course) is only relevant if we use OF in the title rather than IN. Anyone have a better suggestion than this? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:35, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)

While we're at it, why is the title of the article Kraków on En? Shouldn't it be at Krakow seeing as how English doesn't have an accented o? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 20:35, Apr 3, 2004 (UTC)

The traditional English name for Kraków is Cracow. However, it's been decided (see: Talk:Cracow) to use the Polish name. Krakow is neither Polish nor English - it's a hybrid resuliting from ommiting the diacritic due to technical reasons. Since it's technically possible to use Ó in Wikipedia article titles, it should be written Kraków. --Kpalion 21:06, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have moved the page to St Mary's Church, Gdansk (Danzig), as proposed above. Nico 22:07, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)