Talk:Special relativity
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Talk archives: Talk:Special relativity/Archive1
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nitpicking
at end of "Motivation for the theory..." "SR can correctly predict the behaviour of accelerating bodies in the presence of a constant or zero gravitational field" --- isn't saying "or zero" redundant? Luke Stodola 22:03, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is there anything physical moving in space-time?
This has more to do with general relativity but how can anything physical move in space-time? The conclusion is that the definitions of space and time and the equation of velocity <math>v = dx/dt<math> forbids anything physical to move in spacetime[1] (http://pages.sbcglobal.net/louis.savain/Crackpots/notorious.htm)
Also there is no mathematical difference between the thing that we call 'spacetime' and the other thing that we call the gravitational field. -- Orionix 11:49, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- That site was done by someone who doesn't understand the basics of dimensional analysis. A time velocity component of 1 second per second is perfectly valid, and yes, it does look like a dimensionless constant on paper, as it is just as valid to specify it as one fortnight per fortnight. --Carnildo 18:52, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- True true. There is time in space-time. One way to look at it: in a time-relative minowski space (i.e. one with the the time origin (t=0) at the current time), as the current time changes at a constant rate, the points are consistently shifted "down" (or up, however the space is orientated) in the t direction, at a constant rate. In any case, that basic minkoski space, as I understand, represents the state of the system, from the pov of the local reference frame.
- All bodies in space-time (minkowski space) have inertia. I.e. they "move", but they do not change energy levels; they conserve speed (velocity). Were a body to accelerate (it's energy level thus changing), a force would ipso facto be involved, and we would be discussing a bending of space. That's where things like general relativity would come into play. Kevin Baastalk 19:02, 2005 Mar 17 (UTC)
NPOV problem
For the past 15 years the problems with both Special Relativity Theory (SRT) and General Relativity Theory (GRT) have been discussed in the Journal Galilean Electrodynamics ISSN 1047-4811 published by Space Time Analysis, Ltd. This contradicts the article sentence "However, at macroscopic scales and in the absence of strong gravitational fields, special relativity is now universally accepted by the physics community and experimental results which appear to contradict it are widely believed to be due to unreproducible experimental error.". In fact the the above journal was created to counteract the suppression of any questioning of Relativity.
In the March/April 2005 issue of Galilean Electrodynamics page 23 is an article titled "First-Order Fiber-Interferometric Experiments for Crucial Test of Light-Speed Constancy". This article covers the experimental design requirements to test some of the features of relativity. The last sentence at the bottom of page 23 is "Therefore, the assertion that light speed is still c in a system moving translationally relative to Earth has not yet been verified.". Relativity is a theory that has not been adequately tested. The last three sentences in the above article are "Here, we challenge the relativistic physicists: please don't try to make the light-speed constancy un-definable. If you care to define that the speed of light is the same for any moving observer, we will design a GPS experiment to show it is not the truth. Give us a clear definition, and we will disprove it.".
Also "Special Relativity Theory (SRT)" not "special theory of relativity" is standard in the above article and journal. Twice when I changed it in the Wikipedia article, it has been put back. I guess it's whatever people want but it's not what people who are discussing the issues are using.
- I have trouble consiering any journal to be "mainstream" or even "serious challenge to orthodoxy" when the journal website's address is "mywebpages.comcast.net". It shows they're not putting a lot of effort into being taken seriously. --Carnildo 05:00, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I was curious as I didn't know Galilean Electrodynamics had a web site. In the 15 years that I've read it, I have never seen a web site mentioned. I carefully looked through the last two issues but no mention of a web site. So I did what you apparently did, I put Galilean Electrodynamics into Google and got the site you refer to. I looked through it and the best I could determine is that it is a personal web site of one of the editors as it contained an email address for authors to use for submissions. Anyway, thank you for the web site address. I used it as an external link in a Wikipedia article I created on Galilean Electrodynamics as the Wikipedia article on the founder Petr Beckmann mentioned it. While I was on Google, I scanned down the hits and noticed Symmetry or Simultaneity (http://www.egtphysics.net/Ron1/Symmetry.htm) by Ronald R. Hatch a contributer to Galilean Electrodynamics. If you are interested his credentials are at credentials (http://egtphysics.net/author/ronh.htm).
- While on the topic of google, "Special theory of relativity" gets 84,000 google hits [2] (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=SNYC,SNYC:2004-19,SNYC:en&q=%22special+theory+of+relativity%22), whereas "Special relativity theory" gets 9,650 [3] (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&rls=SNYC%2CSNYC%3A2004-19%2CSNYC%3Aen&q=%22special+relativity+theory%22). I'd say it's no contest, at least as far as contemporary usage is concerned. Terry 06:57, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Archive created
I took the liberty of moving all talk from before this month to an archive, see Talk:Special_relativity/Archive1. It seemed things were getting a little bloated around here. Terry 06:57, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Also, I realized that there are a lot of SR pages floating around WP which are not really linked well to here (or to the Special relativity category). I am doing a bit of clean-up and linking, please excuse the flurry of minor edits. :-) Terry 05:14, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- OK, done with all that. Terry 07:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Alternatives to SR
In the interests of NPOV and all, and given all the previous discussion on this talk page, I have opened up a section on alternatives to special relativity at Status_of_special_relativity#Alternatives_to_special_relativity. As you see it is extremely rudimentary at present, but perhaps some people here would have an interest in expanding it. I might also suggest that discussion of these theories (or anything else relating to the theoretical, experimental, or cultural status of special relativity) be sent to Talk:Status_of_special_relativity. Terry 07:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Motivation section
I almost reverted the unexplained section blanking myself until I reread that section and decided that it wasn't currently adding anything to the article. I think that jumping to the postulates is a more appropriate way to organize it now, as the Motivation section, which is trying to put everything into historical perspective, is rather confusing the issue.
I think that in this instance, walking the reader through the many wrong turns physics has taken is not the best way to introduce a layperson to an already confusing and misunderstood field. I would vote for that section to be removed or moved to a later History section.--Laura Scudder | Talk 22:53, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I can see your point. Perhaps we can give a very short version of the history and motivation in this page, and spin off the longer discussion into a separate page, e.g. History of special relativity? That would be consistent with the way the rest of this page is organized, and help cut down the perennial problem of page bloat that we seem to have here. Terry 20:57, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC).
- I think that's a very good idea. There's plenty of material that could go into a History of special relativity page that would just be bloat if put here. -- Fropuff 22:27, 2005 Apr 21 (UTC)
- Well, I've spun things off, and left an abridged version on the main page. It's not the most ideal solution, but the best I can do on short notice. Presumably some further polishing is needed. Terry 17:18, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Quantum Physicists are just catching up with Relativity!
I understand quantum mechanics just enough, not to make any great discoveries in the field, but enough to understand the basics. Special Relativity is the same way. I found something interesting though, relativity implies both wave-particle duality and supersymmetry! A wave is a carrier of eneergy from place to place. A paritcle can be viewed as a carrier of mass from place to place. Relativity says energy is the fourth-dimensional extendsion of momentum (which is mass times velosity). This implies that waves are fourth-dimensional extendsion of particles! This also implies that the carriers of energy (Bosons) are extendsions of the carriers of mass (Fermions)! Wave-particle duality and supersymmetry. It seems so simple I'm surprized that this was overlooked for so many years.--SurrealWarrior 18:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Quantum physics and special relativity were merged with a solid theoretical basis in 1928, by the Dirac equation. So I wouldn't say it was overlooked. One doesn't imply the other though. -- Tim Starling 02:14, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)