Talk:Spanish Inquisition
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- Okay, I think I fixed it. I don't know how. Just went to an older edit, and saved it. Think I'll go hang my head in shame for awhile.....Polycarp7 22:14, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I copied and pasted an older edit, but it doesn't contain all the headings and etc. I have no clue how to do that. The article is up, but really needs to be done right. There has to be a way to recover from older edits, besides copying and pasting. I'm so sorry for being a klutz. I just don't know how I did it, but I must have done it! Polycarp7 22:10, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Yikes! Where did the article go? I wanted to make an edit, and the whole thing disappeared! I'm a real novice at this editing stuff, and I'm afraid I did something wrong. I know the article can be recovered, I just don't know how.Polycarp7 21:57, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Good question. How does one revert such an article? (can't find anything about how to do it)--Wasabe3543 22:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I am also removing the "suspected of being homosexual" reference. This image is also on a few other web sites, with a different caption, nothing to do with homosexuals. One simply states "The Spanish Inquisition." As I stated below, homosexuals were primarily tried by the secular courts, except in Aragon, the only inquisitional court which had jurisdiction over homosexuality.Polycarp7 17:37, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I removed this from the image of torture:
"According to Herrera Puga the authorities:
"placed no limits on the means; in this way they used the rack, the lash, fire, etc. In some cases... they applied padlocked irons to the flesh which even led to the amputation of a hand...""
My reason for removing it is because it is simply untrue. I have a problem with the entire image, if fact, because it appears to be more from the "myth of the inquisition" genre than any factual representation. I will be happy to lay out my reasons in more detail if necessary, but suffice it to say now that this image does not depict any of the 3 varieties of torture that were used by the inquisition at that time. The instruments being used appear to be more from the "Black Legend" than what was used in reality. It might also interest you to know that, according to Kamen, (Spanish Inquisition p. 268) in "1509 the Suprema ordered that no action was to be taken against homosexuals except when heresy was involved." After 1529, but only in Aragon, was sodomy an inquisitorial matter. Not even the Roman Inquisition had jurisdiction over sodomy. It was, primarily, a "crime against the state" and it was the state, primarily, that had jurisdiction in this area. Again, according to Kamen, the secular courts were merciless in, in contrast to the Inquisition, which exercised a certain "liberality" which can be seen in the fact that some death sentences were commuted, and only those above age 25 were ever executed. And how does anyone know this is a "suspected homosexual?" Polycarp7 06:21, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- The image is from the Enlightenment era, when making the Church look bad was good sport. See Middle Ages in history for a background on how the period has been inaccurately portrayed over the centuries (including our own). Stbalbach 01:54, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I am adding it again. It is verified in "Homosexuality and Civilization" by Louis Crompton and that quote is a contemporary historian of the time-period. Apollomelos 04:07, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here is another quote from a German visiting Spain in 1495 about "sodomites": "hanging upside down with their genitals about their necks". The atrocities are well-documented in the Inquisition against the crime "against nature". I can give you numerous accounts of the ages preserved in the Inquisitor's detailed records. Apollomelos 04:16, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Apollomelos, a book on the history of homosexuality is maybe (probably?) not a very reliable source on the Spanish Inquisition. In many texts about the Spanish Inquisition, the facts are tainted with the black legend. The fact that "Herrera Puga" was "a contemporary historian of the time-period" is actually a bad thing since at the time a fierce propaganda campaign was (successfully) trying to create a diabolical image of the Inquisition.
- "The propagandists soon created "hooded fiends" who tortured their victims in horrible devices like the knife-filled Iron Maiden (which never was used in Spain). [1] (http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article4.html)
- Was "Herrera Puga" unbiased? If you actually have evidence of the use of these methods, please show them. But beware not to use the work of polemists as source, there are many of them. Actually, it seems to me that there are more polemists talking about the inquisition than experts studying the subject. --201.9.7.123 13:52, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
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I removed a paragraph inserted after the first paragraph that seemed to me to be both POV and not to fit in with the structure of the article. If there is any thing of value in it perhaps if could be reintroduced in the appropriate section (reproduced below for convenience) Billlion 18:47, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Endless was the catalogue of most pious men and eminent scholars who underwent purification, as it is termed, in this den of superstition and tyranny. The culprit was not permitted to speak with his attorney, except in the presence of the inquisitor and a notary, who took notes, and certified what passed; and so far from the names of the informer or of the witnesses being supplied, every thing that could facilitate the explanation of them was expunged from the declarations; and the prisoners, one and all, in these dungeons might truly exclaim, with Fray Luis de Leon, "I feel the pain, but see not the hand which inflicts it." Even in the early days of the inquisition, torture was carried to such an extent, that Sextus IV., in a brief published Jan. 29, 1482, could not refrain from deploring the wellknown truth, in lamentations which were re-echoed from all parts of Christendom. The formula of the sentence of torture began thus, Christo nomine invocato; and it was therein expressed, that the torture should endure as long as it pleased the inquisitors; and a protest was added, that, if during the torture the culprit should die, or be maimed, or if effusion of blood or mutilation of limb should ensue, the fault should be chargeable to the culprit, and not to the inquisitors. The culprit was bound by an oath of secresy, strengthened by fearful penalties, not to divulge any thing that he had seen, known, or heard, in the dismal precincts of that unholy tribunal?a secresy illegal and tyrannical, but which constituted the soul of that monstrous association, and by which its judges were sheltered against all responsibility.
This user has inserted a number of paragraphs like this, in many different articles. They all seem to be POV, and written in some 17th century English dialect. Jayjg | (Talk)</sup> 18:51, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The fact that the writer(s) is saying that Ferdinand was jealous of any other power within his borders is an allegation unless he/she has a journal by Ferdinand stating that he was jelous. Otherwise the writer(s) is providing false information and leading those who have read this article to be biased against Ferdinand. this could start a war with any persons who believe what Ferdinad and Isabella did was good.
- In which galaxy are the creation of the Inquisition and the expulsion of all Jews from Spain "good"? -- Zoe
Actually, we could put one together starting from a set of values that isn't that far removed from our own various sets of values, if we allow for a "lesser evil" argument. I won't try it here, even for the sake of academic discussion, as it would be too long. But it's worth noting, you missed the point: not whether it actually was good, but whether there are material and non-ignoreable sets of people who might find it dismissive to brush it aside like that. PML.
This is an extremely POV article in its current form. The mention of "found Christ" relating to the Waldensian heresy is a glaring example of this. There is also no mention of the fact that many of those who were sentenced to be burned in the autos da fe were in fact only burnt in effigy, so the numbers of people historically stated as "killed" are accepted by other authors on this subject as being grossly inflated. There is also no mention of the Iniquisition's important role as state-sanctioned censor. The article could also benefit from a more detailed discussion of the history and social context of the conversos. -- Gene Poole
I doubt that the Spanish Inquisition reached Scandinavia or Venice. Probably, that should be in Insquisition.
A reorganization separating Historic development (diachronic) and the usual work of Inquisition (static) is neede.
The foreign propaganda ("Black Legend"), singularly Protestant Countries, in creating a diabolical image of the Inquisition is recognized by Henry Kamen in this book.
William Thomas Walsh, in "CHARACTERS OF THE INQUISITION", implies that the popular story of the Inquisition is part of the " Black Legend,".
Why can't comparise in this article the 3,000 to 5,000 documented executions of the Inquisition with the 150,000 documented witch burnings?
- Once again, please read about NPOV. There is no problem with presenting alternative historical explanations as long as they are properly attributed. Just replacing numbers by non-Catholic historians with those by Catholic historians is not the way to write a neutral article. The 3,000 to 5,000 "documented" executions by the Inqusition vs. the 150,000 "documented" witch burnings smack of vastly different standards of documentation. --Eloquence 02:34 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
¿Why the original version of this article (with numbers by "non-Catholic historians", as you say, and a non neutral language) don't caused the same discussion? That it's the question, my friend... Really, I used catholic web pages for this experiment. I'm bad :)
- Imagine an article about smoking that reproduces verbatim the perspective of the tobacco industry. Then imagine one that reproduces current scientific opinion. Which one is more likely to be biased? Of course an organization which is directly responsible for these crimes is likely to downplay them. That does not mean that its perspective is worthless, it should just be weighed against others. --Eloquence 03:20 Feb 28, 2003 (UTC)
Spanish inquisition and Black legend should be separate articles. The first article should be a balanced, NPOV article on a portion of Spanish history. The second article should be about the political uses of history and the politicization of history. Obviously opponents of Spain have used the inquisition for propaganda purposes, but the Black legend comprises much more than the inquisition. And regardless of how people have used the Spanish inquisition politically, it was real and merits its own NPOV article. Slrubenstein
An text from Blasco Ibanez, a spanish novelist:
They say: Oh. I know that country. It is the country of the Inquisición!
It does not seem, gentlemen, but that in no Earth country, there has been Inquisición more than in Spain. Anyone would think that the Inquisición was something that they invented in Seville or Burgos. Something that took a Spanish stamp and that was only known in Spain. The inquisición was a product of the religious fights. It was like a defense of a belief against another belief that rose opposite. But, Inquisición was it in all the catholic countries of Europe. Why to make an exception of us, the Spaniards and to make see because the Inquisition was something so only ours? In France, where there are so many writers, catholic, who by national spirit denigrate to Spain, even painting the Spanish catholicism like something aside from the others, like something Barbarian influenced by the national spirit.
In France, at night of San Bartholomew, killed more people than the Spanish Inquisición in three centuries, and, nevertheless, already it knows that always they say that? Inquisition is something Spanish. And, as soon as speech of Spain and all we, the Spaniards, stayed portrayed as a species of inquisidores.
The religious fights have made violences of a side and another one. The protestants writers attack Spain continuously, but the protestants have also made violences and also they have killed to much more people by religion.
In Ireland, Cromwell ordered to kill the sixth part of the population to be catholic. ¿And the religious war in the north of Ireland with countless acts of violence and irrational massacres against the Irish catholics on the part of the protestant authorities of England?
Miguel Servet, a spanish scientific, first whom the circulation of the blood discovered, died burned in Geneva. Who burn to him? Then, they were not the inquisidores nor the catholic religion. He was Calvin, the representative of the French Protestantism. And in England the religious fights have made spill blood. The monarchists, to defend protestantism, have persecuted to the catholics of there, the most irrational way. In the last centuries, by the way, he not only burned the Inquisition since also he burned regular justice, burned the courts to all person who took by wizards or who took by witches. And he was enough that an old poor woman by his extravagances called the attention of his neighbors so that they burned it. And where happened this? Then in the city of Boston, the United States, century seventeen. They burned to women by witches. And those countries remove spaniards continuously us as samples, like types, of the Inquisition.
- Actually Servet fled to Geneva escaping Catholic persecution. And the Pope alerted Calvin, if I'm not wrong. -- Davidme
I've removed the section on the Black Legend, as there is already a lengthy separate article, and it was only vaguely linked to the rest of this article. - Hephaestos 08:02 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)
In the following paragraph, I don't understand the last sentence:
Of the several Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition had by far the worst record for corruption and malice. The Inquisition began in the city of Seville, and the cruelty and terror for which it is known began there immediately. The "guilty" often had their hands chopped off before they were burnt, often alive. Still, there were cases of criminals who sinned against the Christian faith, since the Inquisition prisons were far less harsh that the Civil Justice ones.
Is this saying that some criminals managed (somehow) to get their cases moved into the Inquisition process instead of the civil justice process because the Inquisition process was less harsh? If so, IMHO, it needs to be a little clearer. If not, what is it saying?
-- RandyKramer - 26 June 2003
When did Spain rule Venice or Scandinavia? Rmhermen 12:46 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Hey Everyone, From what i've actually learned about the 'hard facts' of the spanish inquisition,the article is completely off on almost everything. Only 3 to 5 thousand people were killed at all during the years the office of the inquisition was up and running, a far cry from the 150,000 witch burnings in the rest of Europe . The inquisitors themselves were all lawyers, and they never punished anyone because of a single allegation. They were so stern in their practice of punishment only after proof that they completely rejected all allegations of any one being a witch, a choice the rest of Europe never wisened up to. Furthermore, there are no accounts of more then 2 percent of the population being tortured more then once, and no accounts at all of anyone being tortured more then twice. The supposed burnings very rarely occured, and the supposed horrible dungeons were actually better then that of the Spanish government's normal prisons, so much so that people with criminal charges tried to get themselves placed into inquisitoral prisons by pretending to be jewish. The inquisitors as a whole only worked in urban areas, where 20% of the population lived. The other 4/5ths were rural farmers which the inquisitors generally never went to, due to the fact that during the winters the roads would freeze over and travel was impossible. In the summer, tempratures would reach incredibly unpleasant levels, which provides for inquisitors who half the time didn't go into rural areas because they could not, and half the time because they didn't want to. Most civilians in rural areas never heard of, saw, or knew of any inquisitors at all. They didn't even have that many men to enforce it. There were never more then ten inquisitors per city. Lastly I'd like to say that its quite ridicuolous that spain has been so clearly villified. I'm a jew, and not a citizen of spain, so my own perspective would never be so biased towards spain, but even i feel disgusted at how wrongly portrayed they are in history with respect to the inquisition. I sincerly hope that Wikipedia will revise this article immediately. Sincerely,
Gahl Liberzon.
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it's been hacked
The text of the page has been replaced with "U ARE A FAGGOT" Obviously, this needs fixing...
- Someone fixed it two hours after it occurred. — Chameleon 13:37, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The Spanish Inquisition in the News
An article in Today's Guardian offers some radically lower numbers for those actually executed by the Spanish Inquisition: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1239577,00.html mennonot 09:31, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
And then... The pope seeks forgiveness for Spanish Inquisition: http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_040616si.shtml mennonot 16:52, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Removed:
- Many more are said to have died or spent many years in the prisons and dungeons. It has been suggested that as many as 32,000 people may have been burnt alive, or in effigy, during the 340 years of the Inquisition's existence.
This is obvious weaselry. If a source for these suggestions is cited, they can go back in. —No-One Jones 20:47, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- The Inquisition was used against Protestants in the Netherlands during their war for independence from Spain.
Neutrality
Why is the neutrality of this article challanged? Stargoat 16:11, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Must be the omission of "Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition". Scottbeck 02:03, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
"The Spanish Inquisition was the Inquisition of Spain."
Surely it would be easy for someone with a little bit of knowledge about the subject to change the opening sentence. I understand (having just learned it) that "Inquisition" has a specialized use here, but it sounds a lot like saying, "quantum mechanics is mechanics on a quantum scale"—it's not very useful unless you already know what it's trying to tell you. --[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 23:58, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Who is Ryan Crompton?
From the Context section
- In the 15th century, Spain was not a single state but a confederation of reigns, Ryan Crompton ruled each administration: The Crown of Aragon and Castile, ruled by Ferdinand and Isabella, respectively.
This doesn't make sense, who is Ryan Crompton?
Only Jews and Muslems
I thought the Spanish Inquisition was also persecuting a large Pagan population mainly in villages, is this correct?
- If you mean witch-hunts and the like... The answer is no. Only two (2) "witches" were killed by the Spanish Inquisition during its 350 years of existence. There wasn't a pagan population in Spain at the time. Plus, unlike what some people believe, the people killed during the burning times were Christians wrongly taken by witches. If you want to understand the modern view of the European witch-hunt, read these articles:
- The Burning Times (http://wicca.timerift.net/burning.html);
- Recent Developments in the Study of The Great European Witch Hunt (http://www.cog.org/witch_hunt.html).
- They were written by "neopagan" authors, by the way. --201.9.7.123 23:56, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
French illustration
"The Inquisition was also used against focuses of early Protestantism, Erasmism and Illuminism and in the 18th century against Encyclopedism and French Illustration."
- erm...French Illustration? Really? I'd love to know more, but the linked article doesn't seem apropos. Joestynes 06:13, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)