Talk:Social contract

Before the debate here picks up much steam, I'd suggest social contract theories as a good starting place. --TMC

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The discussion of informal consensus doesn't, I believe, really gibe with the standard sociological treatment of the term social contract. A social contract is one between the individual and the state, from which the states derives legitimacy, rather than societal norms. --The Cunctator

Social contract is going to have several different meanings because it basically comes down to the fundamental rules of humanity and thus numerous groups argue that the social contract has different terms. The social contract is informal as constiutions and codes are an attempt by humanity to formally state what the social contract is. Lir 06:53 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

Have you read The Social Contract? The term has a specific meaning in sociology and political theory, just as "particle" and "momentum" have specific meanings in physics, that are not identical to popular usage. --The Cunctator

Some would argue that sociology and political theory are not in the least scientific. Lir 06:57 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

So?

So that would mean that The Social Contract only has a specific meaning to some sociologists and political theorists Lir 07:01 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

That's not what that would mean. But at least now you're making a reasonable argument. I have to say that I fall on the side of primarily defining terms in Wikipedia based on their most specific and well-defined (and thus often academic/scientific) usage; terms such as nationalism and mass are good examples. The fuzzy vernacular usages can then be described in comparison to the specific concept. Other people have disagreed with this position in the past. --The Cunctator

Nah, Im pretty much down with that. Lir 07:10 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

I am a card-carrying sociologist. Social contract has a _specific_ and rigorous meaning in political theory. It is much mushier in sociology. Suggest breaking it out as "In sociology: " "In political theory: " user:clarka

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I don't have anything to add. I'm just curious if anyone knows why this page claims it has been accessed 0 times, when that is obviously untrue. Tokerboy 07:01 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

I see 250. Lir 07:02 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

Huh. I still see 0 now. Tokerboy 07:05 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

LOL. See the bottom of Wikipedia:Village pump. --mav

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Independent sources(and for that matter, the entry for Thomas Hobbes) seem to indicate that his book Leviathan, written in 1651, touched upon this subject. Is this incorrect or referring to another kind of social contract? If not, I suppose the statement that Rousseau coined the term and the concept in 1762 must be inaccurate? Svk 19:50, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

JJR versus the rest

I think the majority historians of philosophy would suggest that JJR's is neither the most common nor the most influential form of contractarian theory, which is not to say that it is unimportant. But I think its emphasis on the role of the group over the individual is outside of the mainstream. Some would suggest that JJR's theories of the state's right to morally educate citizens, as in the case of Plato and others, gave intellectual force to totalitarianism (see, for example, the Encycolpedia of Philosophy). That is not to suggest that JJR intended this or meant this, however, it is only a historical fact. The folks of the Rights of Man and the Reign of Terror, not to mention Marx, and others, were greatly influenced by JJR. But we owe the intellectual dethronement of absolute power, the right to self-govenrment through representative democracy, and the triparte political system much more to Locke more than we do to JJR...for what that is worth.icut4u

JJR is the philosopher most often associated with Social Contract theory, for the simple reason that he was the one who popularized the term (and, if I'm not mistaken, also the one who originally coined it). The idea of moral education done by the state was by no means JJR's invention (see Plato, for example; you even mentioned him yourself), and totalitarian states are only a tiny minority of the states who morally educate their citizens, so I don't see your point in this regard. You are right, of course, that JJR's theories had both good and bad effects. As a general rule, all ideas have both good and bad effects, and it's often a matter of subjective analysis if the good outweighs the bad. I would argue that it's blatantly obvious that JJR and the Social Contract were a huge benefit to humanity, but others may disagree.

Also, when you say "we owe", who is this "we" you are talking about? Anglo-saxon systems (the USA and the former British Empire) certainly owe more to Locke than to Rousseau, but nearly all other European models of government owe more to Rousseau than to Locke. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 11:30, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that he coined it (contract theory is too old), but he certainly popularized it. I believe his influence is greater wherever there are representative democracies limited by princples of individual liberty, without absolute rulers. I think Locke and the Revolution of 1688...a century before the French Revolution that JJR most certainly influenced, have had a more profound intellectual affect on the English-speaking world, most definitely, but, ultimately, also on Continental Europe, and JJR himself (and several of those who influenced JJR). I do not deny JJR's great influence, however, but I suppose the chasm you and I cannot bridge is that I think it has been more negative than positive, historically speaking ...not wholly his doing, either. Interestinly, JJR has more in common with Hobbes, I think...for his theory of the General Will is a substitute for absolute soveriegnty, except it is the absolute soveriegnty of the people. He took the worst of Hobbes and blended it with the best of Locke....but the result, as you observed, has been put to good and bad uses. In any case, I think it boils down to a matter of preference, an unavoidable POV that cannot be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. icut4u