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wouldn't it be reasonable to say that the "alternate" spelling is the correct one that should be used here? Lir 09:34 Nov 10, 2002 (UTC)
- Quite possibly! I did have the page at Sinéad O'Connor for a while, and held a little vote on the Talk:Sinéad O'Connor page to see which version people preferred. I moved moved the page here after getting one vote in favour of doing so. Perhaps I should have waited until more votes were in! ;)
- Okay, more votes please, everyone! -- Oliver Pereira
I'm moving the text from the Talk:Sinéad O'Connor page to here for now. Please could people with a strong opinion on the "correct" location of Sinéad O'Connor's entry add their arguments below.
Moved text:
- Do people think that this version of her name should be the default one, or the version without the accent on the "e"? Votes please! :) -- Oliver Pereira
- The non-accented form gets 6 times the number of Google hits. We also tend to use the widest English form of names. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (anglicization). So I guess Sinéad O'Connor gets my vote. --mav
- Okay, you win 1 vote to 0. :)
She and Nicholas Sommerlad have divorced??? When did that happen? Well, that didn't last long, did it? :( Anyway, it's the Queen of Sweden (Silvia, née Sommerlath) that he's allegedly related to, not the King. I'll correct that. I haven't seen any confirmation of the relationship, though... Should we put an "allegedly", or just trust that the Sommerlads have done their research properly? I've thought about getting back in touch with Matthew Sommerlad just so I can ask him about it, but I haven't got round to it... -- Oliver P. 14:32 30 May 2003 (UTC)
He says he is. They haven't divorced yet. It depends on where they get the divorce as to how quick they can get it. But then Sinéad is a bit of a man eater. FearÉIREANN 20:54 30 May 2003 (UTC)
BTW Sinead now insists on always being called Sinéad, not least because her name is pronounced differently without a fada. FearÉIREANN
Ah, thanks for clarifying that. So have you met Nicholas Sommerlad yourself, in your journalistic travels? He went to my school - he was two or three years above me; his brother Matthew was in my year. And I'll move the page unless anyone can suggest any good reason not to... (The "Sinead" spelling will remain a redirect, of course, so there'll be no problem with people finding it.) -- Oliver P. 11:13 31 May 2003 (UTC)
- Actually the last time I saw Sinéad and Nick was in a gay pub in Dublin called Out on the Liffey. They were there officially as lovers (the fact that they were married was only revealed the next day). Sinéad had to the poor guy pinned down (they were sitting on some steps) snogging the face of him. She only stopped to send Brian Kennedy (the singer) to the bar for a pint (I never realised he was so tall!). Oh and she . . . em . . . came up for air when a drag artist called Mr. Pussy (a friend of hers who was there with her) had a bad luck to win a draw, the prize was to have to come up to sing a song. He was mortified to be called up on his 'night off' (but only for a few seconds. He loves being the centre of attention!). But was truly livid to find whomever had won that draw had to sing a song by . . . Rolf Harris! He nearly stormed off in disgust. He singing Rolf Harris is like Pavorotti being told he had to sing a song by Iron Maiden! Sinéad stopped snogging Nick to death long enough to look around, burst out laughing at Pussy's embarrassment, then, as Nick's head appeared from the ground onto which he had been pinned (I have expected to see an imprint of Nick's head on the wooden steps!) she promptly hopped on him again and began sucking whatever minimal air was left in the poor guy's lungs. People sitting around had to step daintily around them to get to and from the bar - I think everyone was afraid that knowing Sinéad if they stepped on her she would have bitten their ankles! So we all enjoyed the spectacle of a choice of shows, a fat frumpy drag artist's mortification (he has the dress sense of Bet Lynch meets the Queen Mum!) at having to sing a Rolf Harris song, or Sinéad O'Connor half killing poor Nick. (Maybe he promised to marry her to get her to stop kissing him and let him have some air again!!!). So that is the story of Nick, Sinéad and her almost kissing him to death. FearÉIREANN 05:30 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Isn't saying she was ordained a "Roman Catholic" priest inaccurate? She was ordained by Michael Cox, who AFAIR, was excommunicated, and therefore in no position to ordain anyone as a "Roman" Catholic. User:Jimregan
Cox was made a bishop by an ordained bishop and so is a valid bishop. Officially his episcopal ordaination is what is called valid but unlawful (ie, 100% valid because the person who ordained him had the power to do so but as the appointment was not authorized by the Vatican, it was unlawful, therefore he should not have done so). In turn Cox can ordain anyone, but without approval from the Holy See any ordination would also be "valid but unlawful". Theologians have long disputed whether being excommunicated means you cannot ordain. Many for centuries have said that once made a bishop, you cannot be unmade and as by virtue of episcopal office you have a right to ordain people, even if ordained yourself you still can; it is simply that you should not.
Excommunication is complicated because while someone who is excommunicated is by definition outside Roman Catholicism, many of those excommunicated view those who excommunicated them as themselves theologically in error and so de facto excommunicated. In the circumstances, rather than getting involved in disputes over who is and who isn't in error, the safest NPOV way to cover the issue is to say 'x' has been excommunicated but avoid getting into the nitty-gritty of who is and who isn't Roman Catholic. For example, Eamon de Valera was excommunicated, so has Castro. It has been claimed that by allegedly joining the Freemasons the future Pope John XXIII was excommunicated in 1935. And that by supporting abortion Senator Edward Kennedy has been de facto excommunicated. Indeed at its most technical, perhaps one in every ten RCs has been excommunicated, by having abortions, by supporting pro-abortion candidates even when told that doing so would encur automatic excommunication. Millions of Catholics in Italy between 1946 and 1990 were automatically excommunicated by voting for the communist party under the threat of excommunication. In fact most of the founders of the modern Irish state were excommunicated.
So on balance, the safest NPOV route is to say that she was ordained a RC priest but that by doing so she was technically excommunicated, with RC Church disputing her ordination (though curiously one quite conservative - in fact ultra-conservative - theologian told me once that yes she is a priest, which puzzled me. He went into a full theological analysis which went right over my head, though to say he was pissed at the ordination was an understatement! He also explained - as I already knew - that Pope Pius XII ordained a woman priest in I think it was the 1940s and 1950s. I think it was because as a woman the communists behind the Iron Curtain, or it might have been the Nazis at the time, would not have suspected her of being a priest. If I remember correctly, though a priest he empowered her to ordain bishops in an emergency, to continue the Apostolic Succession in the event of a supression of the RC church. The fact of Pope Pius's woman priest has only come to light in recent years but was long known about in the Vatican. So if she could be ordained - and no less a person than the pope said she could - so could Sinéad! Though I doubt if that priest had two divorces, children by other partners and a number of abortions behind her, let alone tore up a picture of the pope on TV!) Going any further involves straying into a theological and factual minefield guaranteed to provoke edit wars, and is also nowhere as simple as the RC Church for its own reasons likes to pretend. :-) FearÉIREANN 22:09 11 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Isn't saying she was ordained a "Roman Catholic" priest inaccurate? Hmm? According to the edit history, it was you who added that statement to the article in the first place! -- Oliver P. 03:12 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
I know. And I was explaining why and some other user was asking for an explanation. That line was put in on the talk page by some other user but they never signed their name. What did you think I was doing? Having a chat with myself? :-) FearÉIREANN 05:13 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Oh! Well, that explains it. Thanks. :) Yes, I always manage to get confused when people don't sign their messages. I can never work out where one person's comments end, and another's begin, even if they're saying opposite things! But I loved your story about Sinéad and Nick and the Rolf Harris-singing drag artist. Can we add it to the article? ;) -- Oliver P. 05:48 12 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- Whoops. Sorry 'bout that. I was sure I signed it, but the edit history doesn't lie. -- Jim Regan
Links
I just got done changing all but one page's links in the article space from Sinead O'Connor to Sinéad O'Connor. There were 61, for the record. --Ben Brockert 02:27, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)