Talk:Serbia proper

UZA or CENTRALNA; CENTRAL OR PROPER

Just for the record if you type

Google search
Uza Srbija	1,500 results
Centralna Srbija	6,480 results
Central Serbia	1,260,000 results
Serbia proper	110,000 results

Avala 13:33, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

This article was not written to discuss the geographic region of "Central Serbia" - it was written to discuss the English-language term "Serbia proper". Moving it to "Central Serbia" defeats the point. It's going back where it came from. -- ChrisO 18:09, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

That search doesn't actually prove the point you are trying to make, since you omitted the quote marks around the terms. This results in there being far more hits than Central Serbia than there should be - it is merely finding all pages with the word 'Central' on them, and the word 'Serbia' on them, not the term 'Central Serbia'.

Here is a real table, conducted using valid searches

"Uza Srbija"	602
"Central Serbia"	6,790
"Serbia Proper"	9,710
"Centralna Srbija"	721

Ooh, look which one won. Morwen 18:23, May 20, 2004 (UTC)

Centralna-721

Uza-602

??There are much less pages on serbian than english. Avala 12:57, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Remember this is the English wikipedia, not the Serbian one. Morwen 14:20, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

yes it is

Avala 13:44, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Moved from talk: Serbia

I see I missed most of this discussion, but it's never to late to try to shed some light on it. In socalist Yugoslavia, the area that we're trying to find an name for was known as uža Srbija (literally "narrower Serbia"). It was usually translated into English as "Serbia proper". The word "uža" in this contest could also be translated as "inner" or "central".

The term itself, which was originally considered neutral, has come into disrepute in Serbia, because it was perceived to somehow imply that the provinces are not properly Serbia.

I'll try to provide some background - through times, the name "Serbia" had several different meanings, some of which are still evident in the present usage.

The medieval core of the Serbian state was in Raška, SW Serbia and Kosovo. Those parts (especially Raška) are known as Stara Srbija or "Old Serbia".

During the ottoman rule, Serbia was considered to include the ottoman regions where Serbs lived, which would in those days include Kosovo, parts of Bosnia and Montenegro. In this frame of reference, the statement "Kosovo has always been a part of Serbia" makes sense. This sense was revived in the 1990's: I met a Serb from Doboj in Bosnia, who claimed that he was from Serbia. That is, of course, a very politically loaded statement.

When Serbia became independent again, the name Serbia got a new definition, meaning the Serbia of 1878 - no Kosovo, no Vojvodina. This is still widely felt in the usage today: Srbijanac ("Serbian" as opposed to "Serb", cf. Bosanac ("Bosnian") and Bošnjak ("Bosniac")) does not include Serbs from Bosnia, Croatia, Vojvodina or Kosovo. This makes the translation "Serbia proper" sound reasonable.

Later, Serbia grew larger and included Macedonia, which was known at the time as "Southern Serbia". Nationalists still like to refer to Macedonians as "Southern Serbs" (note, Južni Srbi - "Southern Serbs", not Južni Srbijanci - "Southern Serbians").

So what to do?

• "Narrower Serbia" sounds horrible
• "Central Serbia" is out of the question, because it already means something: the central region of Serbia, much smaller than Serbia minus provinces.
• "Serbia proper" sounds reasonable to me (especially with its history of usage), but I can see the point of people who oppose it.
• "Inner Serbia" could sound OK, but lacks precedents.

Should all of this be explained in the article? Zocky 21:54, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

I think that central serbia is the best. It is the term used today, it tells you in the moment where is it located(in central part between other provinces(Kosovo, Vojvodina). Inner Serbia sounds OK really but it is not much different from "central" except it doesnt say where is it located. The other thing is that nobody uses that term. Avala 19:45, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Look, "central Serbia" ("centralna Srbija") simply means something else. My father's family is from Loznica which is in "uža Srbija", but it's also in western Serbia ("zapadna Srbija") and thus not in "centralna Srbija".

"Serbia proper" is just the common English name for "uža Srbija", even if it can be read to have negative connotations. I mean, should the French to stop using the name fr:Allemagne because it can be read to imply that Germany has rightful claim only to the land originally settled by the Alemanni? Zocky 23:26, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I am confused. Western Serbia is part of Central Serbia, right? Also North(Sumadija), East and South. Central is not side of the world. But we can call it Central Serbia Proper. Huh it sounds a little bit stupid to me but I think it is OK. Avala 12:37, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

No, Western Serbia is not a part of Central Serbia, just as Western Europe is not a part of Central Europe. Zocky 17:33, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Zocky 17:33, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Zapadni deo centralnog dela zemlje. Na to sam mislio.