Talk:Salic law

"male sons": I know it's not correct in English, but the distinctions I meant was: "sons and not daughters". I hope "sons" does not include them both, so to keep clear that it is the "male descendance" (but no one else apart from sons - if there are any). G

Yes, figli means 'children' (any combination of sons and daughters). Sons are necessarily male.
S.

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Gianfranco -- I've always thought that Salic Law is traditionally supposed to come from the Laws of the Salian (as opposed to Ripuarian) Franks -- not from the Salian dynasty, which is not normally associated with France -- am I mistaken? JHK

Oops, it's a mistake of mine.

Well, half "mine": my "source" was an italian old official booklet from Savoy's "Real Casa", in which the House was described as following the Salic law with reference to the Salian dynasty tout-court - perhaps confused by assonance, as I was.

Effectively the lex salica was Frankish, even if (if I'm not mistaking again) it was used for succession in monarchy only centuries after, extensively - as the law itself was mainly a sort of civil and penal code and made no mention of royal succession (but a kingdom was a land property, at last, and as such regarded by that code).

The rule for successions was in fact derived by analogy to what prescribed for the inheritance of the terra salica (land in salic territory), essentially excluding daughters.

About France, it seems to me that the original law was a sort of mixture of German and Latin. --Gianfranco

can the Salic Law ever be abolished?

I understood that a few monarchies had already done so in order to enter the European Union owing to a provision forbidding EU countries from sex discrimination in choosing the head of state. Also, it seems to me that Spain had the Salic law at one point and dropped it as a result of a protracted and unpleasant war, but my memory is hazy (on both points). - Montréalais

I found this article misleading, too. However, it adds a lot of detail about the Lex Salica that I was unaware of -- I assumed that since it dated to the early Frankish kingdom, that it was now entirely obsolete. I did some googling, & this article (http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/salic.htm) seems to provide a lot more of the background. Now if someone can rerwrite that in order to avoid copyright infringements. -- llywrch 04:08 Dec 6, 2002 (UTC)

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Altering this: "Finally, Queen Elizabeth II is Duke, not Duchess, of Normandy, because the duchy (consisting of the Channel Islands, not Normandy in France) is both under the control of the British monarch and governed by the Salic law. Therefore, for the purpose of that duchy, the Queen must be construed as legally male ", which is a frequently seen canard, (based mostly on the frisson it gives to toast to "To the Queen, our Duke").

The Queen is neither Duke nor Duchess of Normandy. Any claims by the British monarch to be "Duke of Normandy" were given up by the Treaty of Paris in 1295. However, the Channel Islands, which are not part of the UK, but are an independent territory, represent the remnant of the English Crown's French possessions and the only part of the Duchy of Normandy to remain after 1204. Queen Elizabeth II is called the islands' Duke, not Duchess, but this is a colloquial usage, related to a specific decision by Queen Victoria, who considered that "duchess" was undignified. But calling a female a duke doesn't make her eligible to inherit under Salic law: if Salic law pertained the heir would have to be male, not merely be called by a male title. In fact, Salic law has never been evoked with respect to Jersey. The Queen is the sovereign in Jersey as Queen, not as duke. For further details, see [1] (http://www.jerseylegalinfo.je/Publications/jerseylawreview/June99/le_rouai.asp)

So, does this explain why the Queen is the Duke of Lancaster? -- Zoe

well, sort of... same basic underpinning, Queen Victoria thought it was less dignified to be referred to as a duchess than a duke. But of course, in legal terms, neither Victoria nor Elizabeth were either duke or duchess of Lancaster, they just got the income from that duchy. (Salic law had nothing to do with either Lancaster or the Channel Islands!) -- Someone else

Sorry but the British monarchy claims the "Duke of Normandy" title: [2] (http://www.royal.gov.uk/textonly/Page2436.asp) [3] (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page2018.asp) [4] (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page543.asp). That's also the way people want it in the Channel Islands and the French don't care at all about it... --Ann O'nyme 22:08, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Another point would be that the early secular French peerages and most of its feudal principalities were not governed by Salic law until much later, most of the time not until they went in the royal domain. At the famous debate where salic law is said to have been adopted, although it was a legal fiction used a century later to justify the whole thing, Mahaut (sometimes called Marguerite) d'Artois was the peeress of Artois in her own right. David.

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At this point, the article still does not even mention the Salian Franks. It reads as though Shakespeare wrote the damned thing. I'm fixing, but shouldn't have to... JHK

With respect to the 100 years war, no jurist mentioned the Salic Law as a reason why the English king should not be the king of France before the 15th century. Although the accession of Philip of Valois followed the Salic law, this does not mean that the Salic law determined the succession.

If Philip of Valois had been unambiguously the legal heir to the French throne in 1328, there would have been no need for him to require his neice Joan (the daughter of Louis X who had been passed up for the succession when she was six years old due to some combination her gender, minority, and possible illegitimacy, later Joan II, Queen of Navarre) to renounce her claim on the French throne. Shimmin 20:15, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

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Isn't Luxembourg's independence due in some way to the Salic Law? If so anyone who knows the facts would be most welcome to add it to the interesting twists section at the end.