Talk:Saddam Hussein

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Talk:Saddam Hussein/naming contains the collected discussion on the naming of Saddam Hussein. Please do not attempt to change the use of Saddam's name in this article without reading and understanding the archived discussion. Thank you. The archive includes the following issues:

• "Saddam" vs "Hussein" vs "Saddam Hussein" as the short form of the name in the article.
• Whether there should be some form of disclaimer regards which is "correct" on the article
• Transliterations: Husayn vs Hussain

Contents

1 Flawed intro 2 Links with French political circles 3 "Bemused thoughts" (conspiracy theory about Saddam, Israel, and Wikipedia) 4 The veracity of Rabeh's claims 5 Weapons inspections 6 Fluctuating Intro 7 Deletion 8 This is not Saddam Hussein 9 Fn 2 "Saddam" 10 Just one minor comment on the article 11 The photo abuse 12 Archaeology of rumor

Flawed intro

The intro contains the following sentence: "While he remained a popular hero among many disaffected Arabs for standing up to the West and for his staunch support for the Palestinians,4 the United States continued to view Saddam with deep suspicion following the 1991 Persian Gulf War."

I have a few problems with this.

1. 1. I do not believe he was a hero to "many" Arabs, rather a hero to "some" Arabs. This is because many, many Arabs hate him with a true passion, probably because Saddam has killed more Arabs than any single person in modern history (last few hundred years). The number of Palestinians who may have liked Saddam and much smaller than the Arabs of southern Iraq who hate him.

No. See the citation that goes along with the sentence. 172 13:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

1. 2. Saddam’s support for the Palestinians has always been minor, and only increased in the last few years by his donations of money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, aka, support for terrorism.

Support for the Palestinian cause had consistently been a major part of his brand of Ba'aathism, foreign policy, and personality cult, and this did not go unnoticed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Again see the citation that goes along with the sentence bringing up the Palestinians. 172 13:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

1. 3. The sentence begins by showing why some/many Arabs supported Saddam, then ends by saying the US viewed him with deep suspicion. This is unbalanced. There needs to be a reason to explain why the US viewed him with suspicion, especially considering there is an explanation of why Arabs like him. By omitting this reason, one can easily infer that the suspicion was because of his support for the Palestinians, and this is false. The US viewed him with suspicion because he was not upholding the cease-fire agreement, violating the UN resolutions, deceiving the weapons inspectors, and attempted to assassinate George Bush Sr. during a visit to Kuwait.

Why the U.S. viewed him with suspicion is obvious. And listing is inappropriate in the intro. 172 13:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

1. 4. I don't think the Palestinian issue deserves to be in the introduction, because it is so minor.

Again, the Palestinain problem was major aspect of his ideology and foreign policy. It must be mentioned in the intro. 172 13:57, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Links with French political circles

Shouldn't "cementing close ties with French political and business circles" be replaced by "cementing close ties with French business and conservative political circles"?

As far as I know, privilegied relationships with African or Middle-Eastern strong-man regimes is a trademark of the "old Gaullist guard" (Charles Pasqua etc.). I don't know of any similar relationships with left-wing political circles. David.Monniaux 11:04, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good point. Neither do I. I would not object to the change proposed above. 172 11:45, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I changed the sentence. David.Monniaux 13:29, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Saddam was deposed by the U.S. and its allies during the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and was captured by U.S. forces on December 13, 2003. The Iraqi Interim Government subsequently charged him with crimes against humanity. While not incorrect, this wording lends the impression that immediately following his capture he was handed over to a sovereign Iraqi government, which had intended to put him on trial. This was not the case, with the official handover of sovereignty not having taken place and his first court appearance still about half a year away. I changed the wording. 172 13:48, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"Bemused thoughts" (conspiracy theory about Saddam, Israel, and Wikipedia)

Just to make you all aware:

><This interruption interrupted by Mr. Billion: IT'S A TRAP!><

Ta bu shi da yu 09:23, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Again I have to express disbelief that the zealous guardians of this article genuinely believe it to be neutral, in its current form. Come out of the closet! do not be ashamed of your motives, admit you feel it is humanitarian and noble to defend Saddam being called "A rising star in the revolutionary Ba'ath Party", (no mention of his trial as a direct war criminal and on what suspicions), while Arik Sharon is termed "The Butcher of Beirut", (every mention of the failed attempt to put him on trial as a war criminal, though it was for indirect responsibility of allied Christian militia crimes, mind you) ... all in the same neutral Encycolpedia!

I am mystified as for the possible moral ground here; justify it instead of hiding behind a procedural beurocracy.

Why is it so important to pretend neutrality? in 50 years, Israel shall be gone anyway but your earnest efforts to that end shall go uncredited and unrewarded.

Be proud of your motives, so that one day, you will be to tell your grandchildren by the fireplace, "In my small way, I was part of that."

or perhaps I am wrong after all; not humble care for the future-but mere cowardly mathematics, weighing the traditionally shorter lifespan afflicting detractors of Iraqi leaders, compared to the relative safety and comfort of criticizing Israeli figures?

And as to this: "As far as I know, privilegied relationships with African or Middle-Eastern strong-man regimes is a trademark of the "old Gaullist guard" ..."

Is "as far as I know" sufficient for references? as far as I know, Jaques Chirac, then (1976) Prime Minister of France and later the Socialist Government of Mitterand, were solid supporters of Saddam's nuclear enrichment project, and not some anonymous old guards, Why, here is an article with a photo of the two latter day civil rights champions, discussing Sartre, the black panthers and Edward Said, no doubt, in one of their favorite activist hangouts: a nuclear reactor. Ah the good ole days, before those beastly Israelis had F-16s (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31552) More Chirac nostalgia (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/9/91851.shtml) Iraqi contributions to French Socialist Party funds (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/07/wmd107.xml) - no, no connections to Socialism as far as I know, how dare you?

Your reaction, sorry to say so, appears to be typical of what happens when people describe the events in foreign countries from press reports without having the background to know what they're talking about.

It is well known and well documented that there is some "old guard" of the Gaullist RPR party (people like Charles Pasqua, Didier Julia...) that have had some cozy relationships with African and Middle Eastern authoritarian regimes. For instance, Didier Julia pretended that his personal relationships with former baathists officials would enable him to obtain the freedom of some French hostages. For instance, from the 14 to the 17th of Septembre 2002, Julia went to Iraq with Thierry Mariani and Éric Diard – all were members of UMP, the successor of RPR.

In comparison, there does not appear to have been any kind of personal relationship involving France's left wing parties. At the time (1981-1986 or so), France supported Iraq just like a large of the West, including the United States: because Iran was the big bad villain, and Iraq was fighting Iran. As for the allegations about Joxe, they seem highly uncorroborated. Anybody can mention any politician anywhere as having taking bribes – does this mean we should believe them without proof? (Presumption of innocence and all that.)

So, my point is: the support of Iraq by the left-wing governments of the early 1980s was motivated by Iraq's taking on Khomeiny's Iran, while there existed some more personal ties with some of the conservative circles. I note that Mitterrand also approved and committed troops for the First Gulf War.

As for nuclear enrichment, it is highly disputed that Osiraq could have been used to produce weapon-grade material, given the way it was operated. David.Monniaux 09:14, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Also as far as I (and CNN, too bad their domain doesn't inherit your Wikipedia block rights) know, Saddam ordered His Air force to Chemical bomb 60 Kurd Villages, which you continously block. Why is my as Far as I know not as good as your as far as you know?

CNN Report on Iraqi Kurds (http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/11/27/sproject.irq.kurds/) CNN Map (http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0208/timeline.chemical.weapons/content.6.html)

Stop making incoherent rants. We already cover the chemical attack on the Kurds and Franco-Iraqi relations... BTW, I am an Ashkenazi Jew and a lifelong Zionist. To me what you are insinuating above is insulting and disgusting enough to make me consider the idea of blocking you indefinitely. 172 21:54, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry if they are incoherent to you, and doubly sorry if you are insulted by them. However if you are insulted by insinuations of sympathy to Saddam, and you consistently revert an article intro to a form which in my view is sympathetic to Saddam, what else am I to infer: the word "chemical" is nought to be found in the entire body of the article, save for my links to CNN sites (probably an oversight of one of the blockers who left them there) "Bombing Kurd villages" fails to mention the uniqueness of the first WMD attacks on civilians since World War II. This is at least as important for the intro as the foreign influence on Palestinians, considering the Kurds ARE Iraqi citizens and not foreign. Show me one profile for a world leader in wiki whose second intro paragraph blabs about his influence on a foreign nation! failing that, one must give at least one example of Saddam's brutality, take your pick: Genocide, Stalinist Purges, Mass body graves.

Nonsense. References to chemical weapons appear throughout the article, with yet more references to specific types of weapons (e.g., anthrax, nerve gas, nuclear weapons). The content on al-Anfal and Halabjah is more detailed than the content on all the battles and campaigns against Iran (even though one could argue that the latter is more pressing militarily and strategically). The intro states clearly that the Iran-Iraq War was devastating economically and in humanitarian terms; this is made quite clear as the article progresses. 172 08:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Regarding blocking, You follow your conscience, and I'll follow mine. If you feel my criticism is injust, explain to me why I am wrong in my arguments regarding exposure and positioning of the facts in the intro.

Wikipedia has policies against personal attacks, trolling, and disruption. I am merely one in 300-or-so users responsible for enforcing them. 172 08:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

To my view they emphasize Saddam's positive aspects much more than the negatives, even if they are detailed later in the depths of the article. This is what sympathetic means- of course it is not lying, but as in restaurants, location is everything. Opposing views deserve equal exposure in the same place they are discussed. Saddam's threatened and actual WMD attacks on civilians, and its political ramifications, is a fair opposing view to the Palestinian issue and the heroic stance against the west.

You are totally misunderstanding the intro. No editor to this article is saying that his interference in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and his bellicose posturing against the U.S. was "heroic" or "positive." (I certainly view it as another example of his bellicose, belligerent, inflexible, and stubborn behavior, which left Iraq an isolated pariah state.) We mention that he has his admirers, however, because the NPOV policy requires us to balance the nearly universally-held view in the U.S. with the other POV (however wrong) espoused by radical, disaffected elements of the Arab world. 172 08:38, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I cannot stand by while children from the world over read this blatantly unbalanced article, which refers to Saddam's brutalities as gently as possible, while this gentleness is sorely lacking in dealing with Israeli figures. Let me give you a purely speculative example, of what may happen if this sort of trend isn't protested against. The 2050 Wikipedia Entry for Hitler could mutate to:

"A rising star in 20th Century German politics, espousing world unity, secular pan-Europism, economic modernization, and national socialism. Elected democratically as Chancellor (later renamed himself Fuhrer of Germany). Replaced the frail and elderly president Hindenburg. As Fuhrer, developed a pervasive personality cult and maintained power through the devastating World War II, (1939–1945), which both corresponded with a sharp decline in living standards and the human rights situation. Notable vegetarian and supporter of pacifism among his opponents. While he remained a popular hero among many disaffected Germans for standing up to the West, the United States and its Allies continued to view Hitler with deep suspicion...."

and then lengthy paragraphs with fascinating material on his romances with Eva Brown, love of Dogs and aesthetic tastes in art and architecture. Berlin Olympics to follow, softening the reader up for the unobtrusive reference to his somewhat less atrributable contributions to mankind.

Well now I can at least say I told you so. If you think a majority of Iraqi people would support your version of Saddam's intro over mine, I think you'd be mistaken.

It is absurd to say that any of the content in the article portrays him gently. The one theme that comes up over and over again in the article is that his rule lacked the consent of most elements of Iraqi society, forcing him to take repressive measures against most groups in Iraq and employ aggressive tactics against his neighbors. What does this tell the reader? It tells the reader that he was nothing more than a gangster originally lacking support from all groups in Iraq except his fellow gangsters from Tikrit. The article describes in detail how he stayed in power despite his total illegitimacy: terrorizing the Shiites, Communists, and Kurds; paying off the rest of the population, made possible by nationalizing the oil industry in 1972; skillfully playing foreign powers against each other, at least until 1991; and using the Palestinian problem to cloak his regime with some legitimacy in the Arab world. So he comes across as nothing more than a thug skillful for a while at propping himself up by manipulating all the contenting powers in the region, who lost his game as the balance of power in the region shifted in the 1990s, i.e. what he comes across as what he was, no embellishment and emotive language necessary. If this is your idea of a sympathetic portrayal, you need to reread (or read) Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. 172 10:01, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring mainly to the INTRO not the rest of the article.

The intro does not mention at all any of:

• the "repressive measures" (only equivocally "human rights situation" which anyone can interpret according to his/her hearts wishes;)

• terrorizing of ethnic groups also is absent.

the term "repressive security appartus" again does not reflect Saddam's barbarism towards ethnic rivals - ('security appartus' usually means secret police, Stasi type state surveillance etc)

• "lacked consent of iraqi society" also doesn't appear there in any form;

If you put all those things in the INTRO and i'll be happier. Most people only read the intro, either because they are too lazy or too unwilling to scrutinize their prejudiced views; and an equivocal intro panders exactly to those types of readers, encouraging them. The intro should be built in such a way that fairly represents the two main popular opposing views of Saddam: as a brutal dictator, regional threat of WMD and terrorism, vs. freedom fighter / modern Sallah a-Din whatever his supporters want to call it. It does the latter but not the former. Yes, you cannot avoid the possible reader conclusion that Saddam's popular support may not be despite his brutality but because of it; This is one of the legitimate paradoxes sorrounding this figure (and that of most dictators).

the two main popular opposing views of Saddam: as a brutal dictator, regional threat of WMD and terrorism, vs. freedom fighter / modern Sallah a-Din whatever his supporters want to call it Keep propaganda out of the into. Right now the intro is straigtforward, concise, and factual. It goes through-- and all it needs to mention-- all the important phases of his career, since this is a biographical entry, not the history of Iraq article: key dates, succession, the development of the security appartus, his personality cult, the Iran-Iraq War, the First Persian Gulf War, the Second Gulf War, his capture, and the trial. It will not include POV emotional reactions like "brutal dictator," "barbarism towards ethnic rivals." After all, no one wants to hear the opinion of pseudoanonymous Wikipedia editors who may or may not be authorities on the region, even if they are the near universial opinions in the civilized world. 172 00:40, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You are still ignoring the main points:

• WMD issue
• "terrorizing of ethnic groups"
• "lacked consent of iraqi society"

do not appear in the intro in any shape or form, emotional or not. These are the main arguments of the US invasion, and would be a fair contrary balance to the other facts mentioned in the article (Arab world popularity etc), The arab POV is the only POV that the intro deems justified enough to explain and SUPPORT with facts. The US reaction is only MENTIONED, but not SUPPORTED with facts or explained. This is not NPOV. This is APOV...

And since when "no one wants to hear" unauthorised editors here ? Wikipedia claims to be unique as an editable encyclopedia - not a dogmatic shrine of duly authorised editors; wasn't it supposed to reflect fact backed universal opinions in the civilized world, even if they do irritate a minority of experts?

"Terrorizing... ethnic groups" and "lacked consent of Iraqi society" are POV; no one is interested in the interpretations/opinions of pseudoanonymous Wikipedia editors. At any rate, these points are already thoroughly evident, but worded in a way that complys with Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. (The article mentions that the Ba'athists seized power in a coup. It mentions that Saddam built up a repressive security appartus and forged a personality cult around himself in order to maintain power. The article mentions the deteriorating conditions of human rights... Regarding WMDs, it is not always known when/whether or not he had access to which kinds of weapons. In order to avoid making a controversial statement on a highly politicized issue, we simply mention deteriorating relations with the West, and deal with the weapons issue in the article precisely and accurately in proper context.) You seem to be bent on turning a carefully worded and comprehensive NPOV intro into a POV one... Also, give up the notion that the intro is the only important part of the article. It doesn't matter if many people don't go on to read the article. The function of the intro is to introduce the article; it is never supposed to be considered a self-standing entry in and of itself. 172 20:23, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• "terrorizing of ethnic groups"
• "lacked consent of iraqi society"

You brought up these points in this discussion but refuse to integrate them into the intro.

I am allowed to state my POV on the talk page in these blunt terms, but not in the intro. You are bringing up what I was saying completely out of context. 172 16:13, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

So in short you agree, that this article does not represent the near univeral POV of the west, because that would be too controversial to the east. And opening the intro on Saddam Hussein with a glowing "A rising star"... is much more controversial than mentioning the above bulleted points, and that he had pursued and used WMD's. Chemical attacks on the Kurds are irrefutable evidence.

"Rising star" merely refers to the rapid rise in his status within the Ba'ath party, which no one can argue with. One can even point to many declassified documents by Western policymakers taking note of his rising status in the late '60s and '70s. See, e.g., [1] (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB107/iraq01.pdf), [[2] (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB107/iraq02.pdf), [3] (http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB107/iraq03.pdf). 172 16:13, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The only apparent difference between the former and the latter is where the controversy lies: the intro has no lack of courage to be bold on issues disputed in the west, but smoothes over points that are likely to anger less tolerant POVS; in other words: encouraging these. It should be either neutral on both POVS, or equally bold.

The intro is neutral on both POVs; every single statement is almost a matter of common knowledge now, after years of intense media coverage on Iraq, matter-of-fact, and straightforward. You just seem to be over-interpreting the statements mentioning his meteoric rise in the party and the popularity that he derived from the Palestinian problem. These two things are brought up because they are important features of his career, not because they are "good" or "bad." We are not interested in value judgments-- or not even supposed to be engaging in them. 172 16:13, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I've reworded a bit of the intro. David.Monniaux 09:25, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The veracity of Rabeh's claims

From the related Metafilter discussion (http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/40310) on this issue, a few questions emerge: What has Saddam said about how he was captured? What are the details of Rabeh's identity, and how can we be sure he is who the article claims he is? The article needs corroboration from another source, as does Rabeh's assertion. A quick Google News search (http://news.google.com/news?q=rabeh&hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&filter=0) for "Rabeh" turns up several results, some of which call him "Ex-Sgt. Nadim Abou Rabeh." So there's his rank, at least. Here's (http://www.nationalledger.com/scribe/archives/2005/03/former_marine_s.shtml) a criticism of the United Press story. A guy (Illuvatar) on the Something Awful (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1487984) forums says First of all, there were no major Marine units in Iraq at the time that Saddam was captured. The last Marines to leave Iraq left at the end of September '03 (I was in the last Marine convoy to leave Iraq, trust me on this one). Marines did not re-enter Iraq en masse until January of '04. He also says that searching here (http://icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx) turns up no results of any Marines of Sudanese descent dying in the time period in question, and that this search (https://lnweb1.manpower.usmc.mil/manpower/mm/mmma/AwardsVerification.nsf/search) doesn't turn up Rabeh's name. And then there's the questions of why Rabeh didn't speak up at the time of Hussein's capture, and where the pictures of the inside of Saddam's "spider-hole" came from if it really was actually an abandoned well. The pictures I've seen don't look much like a well.

Only blog sources are definitively claiming the allegations are not comming from a U.S. Marine. Do you actually give that low a credibility to what a soldier from the field has to say? Obviously if that unit had 8 Marines of middle eastern decent it was likely sent on special assignments such as capturing Saddam, don't you agree? Why are there so many people that try to discount the Marine's story without using logic? I accept the possibility his story might be false, can you accept the possibility it could be true? I believe the Marine more than I believe allegations there were no Marines in iraq then (that is a very psychologically subtle way of tricking people into not even considering the possibility that the allegations could be true). zen master T 16:22, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"First of all, there were no major Marine units in Iraq at the time that Saddam was captured." Wrong, the Marines have been there from the beginning of the war, and will be there unil the end. They simply rotate folks thru Iraq. The idea that there were no major Marine units in Iraq at the time of the capture is nonsense. (anonymous editor)

Don't get worked up over this. I'm not flatly denying that this story might have some validity; however, this is a new claim about Saddam's capture from a single source several months after the fact, and as such it is highly suspect.
"Why are there so many people that try to discount the Marine's story without using logic? I accept the possibility his story might be false, can you accept the possibility it could be true?"
Neither politics nor ideology enters the formation of my opinion on this. I am not a conservative deriding this story as "anti-American," or whatever. Rabeh's story may be fact or it may not. But the balance of evidence is strongly against him--that is, nobody but him has made this claim, and he has provided no proof, only allegations--and I believe that until corroboration can be found, his story should be treated with great caution. Mr. Billion 21:27, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The balance of proof is not against Rabeh's allegations, the word of a U.S. Marine grunt is much more highly respected than all neo-cons at the pentagon's. I remember reading a "conspiracy" theory a number of months ago that stated the real number of U.S. troops killed in Iraq was closer to 5,000 than 1,500, this might explain the apparent discrepancy of not having a Sudanese Marine killed during the real Saddam capture. Hopefully whatever the truth is it comes out fully someday. It should also be noted the manner in which these conservative bloggers are attacking Rabeh's claims, they aren't trying to debunk his arguments logically, they are just trying to trick people into believing what they want them to believe (which likely causes long term psychological harm since people end up thinking less). zen master T 17:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"The balance of proof is not against Rabeh's allegations"
......... Mr. Billion 20:29, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

huh? zen master T 23:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"the word of a U.S. Marine grunt is much more highly respected than all neo-cons at the pentagon's" You just showed yourself to be biased and ignorant, congradulations, we will now ignore you. (anonymous editor)

Thanks for attacking me personally rather than debating logically. FYI: opinion and POV is acceptable on talk pages. I am actually trying to work towards removing subtle POV and opinion from this article. You also fail to note my statement above was in response to a statement that questioned a U.S. Marine's integrity (so you are attacking me for defending a Marine's integrity, oh the irony by the subtle misdirection loving POV pushers). Let me state for the record that even though you are apparently misguided I won't ignore you. zen master T 16:27, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm just glad that that jackass 172 is done, maybe there can be real progress on the article now, rather than bullshit about how Saddam "never fowgott" the instability which FORCED THE POOR LAD to torture and mutilate the Shi'a and Kurdish populace. It was for unity! J. Parker Stone 09:11, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the asinine claims of a supposed Marine, why is this unsubstaniatied claim given any mention here? (From 12.222.234.45 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=12.222.234.45))

Weapons inspections

If I'm not mistaken Saddam accused the US of using weapons inspectors to spy on Iraq. This was later backed up by one of the weapons inspectors who admitted he was doing so for the US. I don't see this anywhere in the article. Although this was probably not the primary reason he rejected weapons inspectors, surely it's inclusion is worthy?

Also, I think the bit about why Saddam rejected inspectors should also include the theory that it may have been because he was arrogant and hated what he regarded as an invasion of his country by the inspectors and not just the theory that he wanted to remain seen as a threat

• • Since we are speculating about motives, consider this, President Bush wanted to invade Iraq, but needed "justification". President Bush gets the weapons inspectors to spy on Iraq, leaks the information to Saddam, Saddam reacts, Bush gets his justification and the rest is history. More or less what each President has done since WWII to get their "justification".

Fluctuating Intro

I have added a truthful and up to date summaried appraisal to Saddam Hussein.

It keeps being reverted to the previous version which began "Saddam Hussein was a rising star". Sddam Hussein came to power by killing his opponents, and remained in power by killing his opponents. The fact that there is also only a cursory mention of the Special Tribunal is ridiculous. I have now directly linked a summary of the IST's task with the article.

Please do not alter the intro backwards again!

The old intro calls him a rising star within the Baath Party, which means nothing more than he was rising up the party ranks in the 1960s and early 1970s. Is this untrue? Of course it is not. Your complaint against the old intro is dubious. Futher, by managing to fit in as many emotive terms as possible into your version, we have a flagrant violation of Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. Chaebol 19:33, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Deletion

A large slice of text was deleted. Is this deliberate, or is it unpatrolled vandalism? JFW | T@lk 16:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is not Saddam Hussein

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SaddamBaghdadwalkabout.jpg

It's a double. I recall this video footage fooled BBC correspondant Ragi Omar at the time, but it is simply not Saddam. I am a professional artist who works a lot reproducing faces from photos and I can spot the difference a mile off. It's a mediocre double. Just thought I would let you know.

Fn 2 "Saddam"

According to the article, Britannica (since when do we care what Britannica thinks?) uses "Saddam", and links to an article (header) which appears to corroborate this. But the CBC article that "explains it all" says: "Following this convention, then, "Hussein" would appear to stand out as the obvious choice, and a few large papers have embraced it, including the Globe and Mail, New York Times, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times and Wall Street Journal. It's also the path taken by some encyclopedias, including Britannica and Columbia." Hence the judgement that Saddam is more appropriate than Hussein, simply because its informally popular needs some explanation. -SV|t 00:17, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It isn't because it is "informally popular". It is because it is factually correct. Saddam is what we would regard as a surname. For some reason some US sources in the 2nd Gulf War bizarrely began to use Hussein (unlike in the rest of the world, and indeed in the US media in the 1st Gulf War). Internationally, the US use of Hussein as a surname is regarded at best as a joke, at worst at worst as an example of "illiterate dumbing down" (comment by ex-US diplomat on a radio show in Ireland a year ago). FearÉIREANN\^(talk) 01:05, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Just one minor comment on the article

Under the heading 2003 invasion of Iraq the article (19:06, May 16, 2005) states "In his January 2002 state-of-the-union message to Congress, George W. Bush (the son of George H.W. Bush) spoke of an "axis of evil" comprising Iran, North Korea, and Iraq".

I know the phrase is commonly quoted "axis of evil"; but I seem to recall once hearing in a news broadcast that actually that is a misquote, and what Bush actually said was "axis of hatred".

Just thought I'd raise this point. Perhaps someone has archives of news reports at the time, and can check up on this - assuming it is important enough that is.

Polsequ95 23:54, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

Check out Axis of evil. DopefishJustin (・∀・) 15:45, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

The photo abuse

The leak of Saddam's "IN HIS PANTS" pictures (http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/05/20/saddam.photos/index.html), in my opinion, has nothing to do with tabloids. Rupert Murdoch may want to buy and print the pictures. But if the U.S. keeps the pictures managed, Rupert Murdoch gets nothing. It's a jail. You can't send your Paparazzi to the jail to take these pictures. The U.S. government shall be held responsible for the leak. This is an important issue. -- Toytoy 08:11, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Yet there should be a way to densify the information a little bit. With three paragraphs, this part put the article off-balance; it should be one paragraph at most... Rama 08:28, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Be bold! -- Toytoy 09:31, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Archaeology of rumor

The following text was inserted by 12.74.187.234 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=12.74.187.234) and 209.247.222.98 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=209.247.222.98) to replace "(No evidence linking Saddam and the attacks of September 11, 2001, appears to have been found)" :

A Legal decision by Judge Harold Baer, a Clinton nominee, in the 1st Circuit Court in Manhattan legally establishes proof of a link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. The civil trial included vast amounts of evidence including testimony about a hjacking school at Salman Pak and testimony from Bill Clinton's Director of Central Intelligence James Woolsey. [4] (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/08/1052280380297.html)

Even Dick Cheney claimed last September never to have suggested a link between Iraq and 9/11. The edit's double reference to Clinton appears to be a political jab.

I bet that Mr. Bush would have liked to have seen these "vast amounts of evidence" to which Baer was privy. If that were the case, he probably could have based his case for war on more sound footing than nonexistent WMD and the possibility that bin Laden and Hussein concievably could work together. It turns out, they've been working together all along!

I'll quote somebody else's comments on this issue: First, because Iraq didn't show up to defend the case, the only issue Judge Baer decided was whether there was enough evidence to send the case to a jury, not whether the facts actually support a finding of Iraqi involvement. That is an extremely low standard under the law and, more importantly, doesn't involve any evaluation of credibility, any cross-examination, etc. There is no finding at all that Iraq was behind the attacks, just a finding that the plaintiffs met the bare minimum threshhold to allow a case to go forward. [5] (http://blogs.salon.com/0002874/2004/05/13.html)

The judge criticized the arguments as based on "classical hearsay" but said that the case was technically sufficient, "albeit barely." [6] (http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/5-09-03/discussion.cgi.53.html)

Part of the plaintiffs' case was based on the Czech report of a supposed Prague meeting between Mohammed Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer. Czech intelligence has since retracted that report and neither the CIA nor FBI now believe that the meeting ever happened.

Actually, just go look at Rumors about the September 11, 2001 attacks. First entry. Bin Laden considered Hussein an "infidel" and supported anti-Saddam islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, Mohammed Atta considered Hussein "an American stooge set up to give Washington an excuse to intervene in the Middle East," et cetera et cetera.

There seems to be a continuing irrational fixation on Iraq. It's bewildering that some people choose to grasp at weak or nonexistent links to Iraq when the countries to which al Qaeda is tied are so obvious. Ignored in the Iraq obsession is the overt and active support or strong links to al Qaeda from other nations such as (of course) Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, and Sudan, where bin Laden based his operations for years in the 1990s at the invitation of Hassan al Turabi, a Sudanese leader.

The country that started this [pattern of Islamic extremism], Iran, is about to turn around, 180 degrees. We ought to be focused on that. The father of extremism, the home of the ayatollah -- the young people are ready to throw out the mullahs and turn around, become a secular society and throw off these ideas of extremism. That is more important and critical. They're the ones that funded Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations. That ought to be a focus. And I can give you many, many more before you get down to Saddam and Iraq. :--General Anthony Zinni (http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/zinni.html)

I don't think that the assertions of an Iraqi link are accurate and I wish people would stop digging up discredited arguments from years ago. I'm restoring the previous text.

Mr. Billion 01:23, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, since Iraq didn't show up to defend itself the best the anon editor could argue is that the allegation went "uncontested", which is hardly a determination of fact or proof. And don't forget about the 1980s links between the USA and proto Al Qaeda. zen master T 03:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)